Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Peregrine wrote:

Ugly Green Trog wrote:
I think the main problem with tau is that a casual tau list will smash most other fluffy or fun lists from what I've seen, I only know one tau player and he seems to play a pretty optimised list so I wouldn't play him as that isn't what I'm about. I know my own list would bite the dirt hard against tau and I'd most likely be tabled by turn 2, I just don't find getting shot off the board before you do anything much fun.

This is only because you (apparently) define "fun" and "fluffy" as "weak" instead of "I enjoy playing this" and "represents an aspect of the fictional universe of 40k".

Now you are just being arrogant with your position.

Let's turn this around. Had not Tau been updated to 6th, would you tell the Tau player that his list making skill is bad, causing him to lose his games?

Without list optimizing I can get good games against any of our opponents, just not with Tau. Is that my weakness? I do not think so. If I build a list specifically Tau in mind I most likely beat the rest comfortably.

No other army has such a built-in synergy, every melee oriented army can have ranged support and vice versa, just not Tau. This has always been the case, it is just that this time it just feels a bit too powerful.

My idea of having good time means that our lists contain a little of everything and we are fine with that.

Also the ally system benefits Tau more than allying Tau into your list. Tau with Eldar can be vicious

Naw wrote:
Let's turn this around. Had not Tau been updated to 6th, would you tell the Tau player that his list making skill is bad, causing him to lose his games?

What does this have to do with anything? The issue here has nothing to do with power creep since the 4th edition codices, the OP plays DA and the problems mentioned so far are all about poor list construction, not being stuck with an old and weak codex.

Without list optimizing I can get good games against any of our opponents, just not with Tau.

Which only happens if your opponents are bringing bad lists. Seriously, all you're doing is complaining that good lists beat bad lists. You can't expect GW to balance the game around an environment where nobody makes good list-building decisions.

No other army has such a built-in synergy, every melee oriented army can have ranged support and vice versa, just not Tau. This has always been the case, it is just that this time it just feels a bit too powerful.

So let me get this straight:

Army A has good ranged units and good melee units.

Army B only has good ranged units.

And somehow army B is the more powerful one? Are you kidding? How exactly does the Tau lacking melee units make them more powerful instead of less?

(And no, the "it's easier to build a list" reason doesn't matter. You don't judge army power level based on how easy it is to avoid making the worst possible lists.)

My idea of having good time means that our lists contain a little of everything and we are fine with that.

So why exactly are you complaining about game balance when you're deliberately making bad strategy choices? This makes about as much sense as complaining that Tau are underpowered because I took an ethereal and two squads of kroot in a 2000 point game.

OP you have had your say. What are you going to do about Tau within your local meta?

I'm not a fan of playing against Tau atm. The only exception being if the player decides to bring some Kroot in his army. Not because Kroot are inferior, but because it shows he has some imagination & is just there for fun like I am.

If I see a list with nothing but Riptides/Drones/Battlesuits etc, I politely decline & wish them the best of luck.

Commissar Benny wrote:
Not because Kroot are inferior, but because it shows he has some imagination & is just there for fun like I am.

Err, lol? How does having Kroot (a solid unit which can be taken purely for how well it wins games) show "imagination" or "fun" in ways that other units don't?

Had the "honor" of finally playing a Tau with Riptide spam. Uhm...yeah. I mean, I am used to GW selling overpowered, $-expensive models on purpose but the Riptide's gotta be a joke I somehow missed.

180 points for the Riptide. Uhm. How is this even borderline close to being balanced? Its rules are overpowered compared to even other 6th codices. Even the oh-so-overpowered-Necrons pay at least 205 pts for a C'tan shard that is vastly inferior to it in all regards. And its double-fire ability just takes the cake. Not suprised that the 3x Riptide list at ETC did so well.

Goddamnit GW, you dun goof'd. Again.

I'll just pass playing such lists and if in a tournament, 0 comp or sportsman and move on.

Personally I'm not seeing a problem with tau and I run daemons (no nurgle at all) and normally in a <2k list there's no greater daemons and mostly khorne use tactics, terrain, movement, threat overload, this wins games.

Skullhammer wrote:
Personally I'm not seeing a problem with tau and I run daemons (no nurgle at all) and normally in a <2k list there's no greater daemons and mostly use tactics, terrain, movement, threat overload, this wins games.

I know I personally struggle here because all my old threat magnets; deffdredd, kanz, trukks of boyz with PK nob just fall apart to small arms fire meaning they just happen to die quickly on the first turn shortly before everything else.

 Peregrine wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
Not because Kroot are inferior, but because it shows he has some imagination & is just there for fun like I am.

Err, lol? How does having Kroot (a solid unit which can be taken purely for how well it wins games) show "imagination" or "fun" in ways that other units don't?

I almost never see Kroot fielded. I have about a dozen stores available within 50-70 mile radius that host 40k events & seeing Kroot on the table is rarer than Sisters of Battle. Despite Kroot being a intergral part of the Tau codex, no one uses them. Its almost the same list every game. Riptides, Drones, Battlesuits. Riptides, Drones, Battlesuits. Why bother taking the time to think & advance kroot through cover to assault when you can just sit back with battlesuits, drones, riptides & put no thought into the game?

Commissar Benny wrote:
Why bother taking the time to think & advance kroot through cover to assault when you can just sit back with battlesuits, drones, riptides & put no thought into the game?

See, this is your problem. You think that Kroot are an assault unit because they used to be in the old codex. They aren't anymore, now they're a shooting unit (often with snipers, to deal with MCs) and cheap meatshield. Taking them or not taking them is just a choice between shooting units, no more or less "fun" than any other shooting unit in the codex, not a sign that the Tau player is "creative" or whatever and going to find a way to assault you.

 Sigvatr wrote:


I'll just pass playing such lists and if in a tournament, 0 comp or sportsman and move on.

Really your giving him a 0 on sportsmanship because he brought a TOURNAMENT LIST to a TOURNAMENT ...that makes perfect sense, you may need to grow up a little before playing in a tournament with that kind of attitude. Sportsmanship should be about the players attitude not what he brings to the table, lists like that are what you should expect at a tournament. People like you acting childishly because "he took a tournament list" is the reason why that part of the score is now banned at my FLGS.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
A Vanquisher shell can easily penetrate and decimate a Land Raider yet it would take minimum 6 shells to even have a chance of killing your average MC? How the hell does that work? And yes I know Beast Hunter shells exist.

That is one of the problems with this shooty edition. They made tanks and walkers worse with the hull points. Tanks should last longer, but every penetrating hit has a 1/3 chance of killing the target. Glancing a tank to death is also easy. Riptides, dreadknights, wraithknights should have been walkers, but given how weak they are I am not surprised they are monstrous creatures instead.

I do not mind a shooty game at all, I would much rather shoot than assault, yet my chosen armies are BA and Daemons. When the SM codex is available, I will choose another chapter and hope the centurions are something else than walkers or Very Large Infantry


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

Naw wrote:
Let's turn this around. Had not Tau been updated to 6th, would you tell the Tau player that his list making skill is bad, causing him to lose his games?

What does this have to do with anything? The issue here has nothing to do with power creep since the 4th edition codices, the OP plays DA and the problems mentioned so far are all about poor list construction, not being stuck with an old and weak codex.

You are so not getting the point of this, are you?

Without list optimizing I can get good games against any of our opponents, just not with Tau.

Which only happens if your opponents are bringing bad lists. Seriously, all you're doing is complaining that good lists beat bad lists.

You do not even know what kind of lists I create. Maybe you are mixing me up with someone else. I am not complaining that good lists beat bad lists. I wrote that the same lists in 5th edition started getting the beating in 6th from our Tau player. The changes were 6th edition and the new Tau codex.

You can't expect GW to balance the game around an environment where nobody makes good list-building decisions.

I do not expect GW to balance anything at all, their track record is quite poor here. I guess they balance based on casual play and what models they want to sell, as they don't ever seem to expect people to cherry pick only the superior units from a codex. Read some of their battle reports, e.g. when Daemons codex came out, they had a game where the Burning Chariot was used. I can't begin to guess how that or the Daemon Prince survived past turn 1 or how the chariot was able to use any of its weapons

No other army has such a built-in synergy, every melee oriented army can have ranged support and vice versa, just not Tau. This has always been the case, it is just that this time it just feels a bit too powerful.

So let me get this straight:

Army A has good ranged units and good melee units.

Army B only has good ranged units.

And somehow army B is the more powerful one? Are you kidding? How exactly does the Tau lacking melee units make them more powerful instead of less?

Maybe I should have been more clear, I assumed what I wrote would make sense. Or you just chose to misinterpret it.

Tau pretty much folds if you can tie them in CC, but they have some serious tools against ever getting into CC they can't win. First bubble wrapping with Kroot, second the Riptide smash, third JSJ to stay away. They don't need CC, for anything.

(And no, the "it's easier to build a list" reason doesn't matter. You don't judge army power level based on how easy it is to avoid making the worst possible lists.)

Now you lost me here, but nevermind.

My idea of having good time means that our lists contain a little of everything and we are fine with that.

So why exactly are you complaining about game balance when you're deliberately making bad strategy choices?

The topic at hand was have Tau gone a bit too far and I believe they have. I gave some examples as to what this means in our small gaming group 5th vs 6th edition. You seem to position yourself based on how OP started this thread and have not progressed further yourself. At least the OP apologized for his attitude.

This makes about as much sense as complaining that Tau are underpowered because I took an ethereal and two squads of kroot in a 2000 point game.

Because Kroot are bad? Huh. Try drop podding when the other table half is filled with them.

 Peregrine wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
Why bother taking the time to think & advance kroot through cover to assault when you can just sit back with battlesuits, drones, riptides & put no thought into the game?

See, this is your problem. You think that Kroot are an assault unit because they used to be in the old codex. They aren't anymore, now they're a shooting unit (often with snipers, to deal with MCs) and cheap meatshield. Taking them or not taking them is just a choice between shooting units, no more or less "fun" than any other shooting unit in the codex, not a sign that the Tau player is "creative" or whatever and going to find a way to assault you.

Which is utterly stupid. Why are the melee choice now suddenly a 24" Sniper Choice?

It's probably the worst lore thing I've seen done to a unit in the longest while, utterly non-existent towards what kroot do!

 Peregrine wrote:
Army A has good ranged units and good melee units.

Army B only has good ranged units.

I don't think Tau are a problem, but this is a seriously bad analogy. Most people complaining come from a position where Army A's assault is not enough to counter-act Army B (Tau's) ranged strength and anti-assault tools, while Army A's shooting is also weaker than Army B's, making you generally inferior all around.

Why can't Tau be competitive? All I'm hearing is whine whine whine, while I, as a Tau player, still struggle to win against better opponents. The only change I have seen since the new codex is that Tau have gone from sub-par to competitive. My casual lists still lose against more competitive lists and my competitive lists still lose against better made lists. Can anyone actually make this post die? I know its not me because this post makes me so mad. Try waiting patiently for your book to be updated. Then you can say that Tau aren't over powered and stop all this stupid posting from happening.

Skullhammer wrote:
Personally I'm not seeing a problem with tau and I run daemons (no nurgle at all) and normally in a <2k list there's no greater daemons and mostly khorne use tactics, terrain, movement, threat overload, this wins games.

Daemons are actually a really bad match-up for Tau.

Between a dozen plus levels of psychic shenanigans they can only defend against if they bring an ally, the Grimorie of True Names and our insane speed, Tau can have absolute fits keeping us at arms length.
A Beast spam list for example gives them only 1 shooting phase when Daemons go first. (2 if Tau go first.) And while Tau firepower is scary, it can't deal with that many threats all at once.
Screamer Council is also fun to pull on the Tau as they can't ever kill it.
Flying Circus isn't the best option, but it can work somewhat if you take the Tzeentch version.

Hell, even running a single double Greater Reward + Bangstick LoC and hit him with the Grimorie every turn will roflstomp the Tau... 3 levels of Divination gives him good odds of landing Forewarning, and if he gets Misfortune or Precognition it's pretty much just auto-pilot.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
Why can't Tau be competitive? All I'm hearing is whine whine whine, while I, as a Tau player, still struggle to win against better opponents. The only change I have seen since the new codex is that Tau have gone from sub-par to competitive. My casual lists still lose against more competitive lists and my competitive lists still lose against better made lists. Can anyone actually make this post die? I know its not me because this post makes me so mad. Try waiting patiently for your book to be updated. Then you can say that Tau aren't over powered and stop all this stupid posting from happening.

I understand your frustration,when the Farsight Enclave Book came out I decided to get a second army of pure Suit variants because I love the theme and know it would look pretty awesome on the table top. As soon as I did many of the local crowd (aka the ones I dont hang out with both at and outside our FLGS) starting complaining about another Tau player and having to fight the "cheese" as they call it. These are also the kind of guys that never want to listen to advice, adapt their tactics or strategies and play pretty nasty power lists of their own (one plays the Necron Flying Circus for example).

I say let people complain about them being OP, majority of them are saying that because they have not found a way to beat them yet. I can be honest and say that I hate fighting Tau since, as already mentioned, they negate alot of tactics armies utilize but are they unbeatable? Not by a long shot.

 gmaleron wrote:

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
Why can't Tau be competitive? All I'm hearing is whine whine whine, while I, as a Tau player, still struggle to win against better opponents. The only change I have seen since the new codex is that Tau have gone from sub-par to competitive. My casual lists still lose against more competitive lists and my competitive lists still lose against better made lists. Can anyone actually make this post die? I know its not me because this post makes me so mad. Try waiting patiently for your book to be updated. Then you can say that Tau aren't over powered and stop all this stupid posting from happening.

I understand your frustration,when the Farsight Enclave Book came out I decided to get a second army of pure Suit variants because I love the theme and know it would look pretty awesome on the table top. As soon as I did many of the local crowd (aka the ones I dont hang out with both at and outside our FLGS) starting complaining about another Tau player and having to fight the "cheese" as they call it. These are also the kind of guys that never want to listen to advice, adapt their tactics or strategies and play pretty nasty power lists of their own (one plays the Necron Flying Circus for example).

I say let people complain about them being OP, majority of them are saying that because they have not found a way to beat them yet. I can be honest and say that I hate fighting Tau since, as already mentioned, they negate alot of tactics armies utilize but are they unbeatable? Not by a long shot.

This is not the point that is the primary topic of discussion at this point. The issue is not that Tau is OP or unbeatable- it has always been that they are not enjoyable to fight against for the majority of people, especially casually.

Let me reiterate the primary points here again, although I know people will still continue to reply with the same arguments that are irrelevant to the point (especially peregrine):

1) Are Tau enjoyable to face?
This is an opinion, but I do not believe so (nor do a lot of people, especially form a casual perspective- and honestly, who enjoys seeing 3 riptides on the other side of the table)

2) Are Tau unbeatable?
Of course not, but the book is very good at shooting most 'unfocussed' or 'fun' lists right off the table, which is an issue for casual metas where nobody really brings optimized lists on a regular basis.
Anyone can bring a very optimized list and do well, but Tau is an entirely different beast. Like I mentioned before, even if people like Peregrine refuse to believe it, I have not had nearly as many issues until the new Tau book with the lists he constantly calls bad/unfocused to either win or have a legitimately good game, regardless of what my opponent brings.

3) Are Tau Cheesy?
As is the trend with every army, the people that play them defend them to death. Tau has, on the other hand, seen an increase in the admittance even by people that play them that they sometimes feel cheesy. The issue comes with the books ability to play on 6e's strengths while simultaneously ignoring core rulebook rules (this is just bad design). The riptide is indeed the flavor of the month and is ridiculously cheap for what it does when you compare it to say, Nid MC's. The book is also poorly designed because unlike IG, the other king of shooting, all of the 'weaknesses' the book exhibits can easily be countered or outright ignored. High mobility, supporting fire, JSJ, Interceptor, etc... Allies further compound the issue, but really that stands for every army

So again, the chief argument is NOT with lists here, or that Tau are unbeatable. The issue is that for a lot of people, especially casually, Tau just mops the floor with them. This was not the case with other armies even in 5th with relatively unchanged tactics/lists. Should we be required to change entire casual metas because of one book? You may think this is the answer, but for many people this is where the perceived unbalance comes from. I don't want to have to bring overly competitive lists to stand a chance against one army- that is not what the game is about for me/many others.

The riptide is indeed the flavor of the month and is ridiculously cheap for what it does when you compare it to say, Nid MC's.

Which are so hilariously overcosted that using them as a benchmark is a bad idea.

How is the Tau book poorly made? I keep on hearing that and I think: I bet that is more of people whining about losing to Tau now they have to attack the design of the codex! Also how would Imperial guard be the king of shooting? How is that even a thing? Tau are supposed to be the shooting army. Imperial guard are supposed to be the: bring more bodies army.

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
How is the Tau book poorly made? I keep on hearing that and I think: I bet that is more of people whining about losing to Tau now they have to attack the design of the codex! Also how would Imperial guard be the king of shooting? How is that even a thing? Tau are supposed to be the shooting army. Imperial guard are supposed to be the: bring more bodies army.

Did you play in 5e? Ever heard of the Leafblower?

IG are indeed about more bodies (at least in the fluff) but nobody plays them that way. They are all about bringing as many guns as they can to the field and shelling/shooting you off the board before you can close the gap.

This is pretty similar to how Tau players play gunline. The difference, however, is that Tau has a multitude of special rules and abilities, on top of far superior mobility, to mitigate anyone that survives long enough to get in their face. Proper internal balance/design suggests that extreme strengths should have corresponding weaknesses to compensate. This is not the case with Tau, which is why the book is poorly designed. Mix with allies for more lulz

Yes I played 5th edition, pretty seriously too, I think one of my worst games was against a leaf blower IG list. Now that guy doesn't play in my local group any more along with a couple other people who aren't really wanting to play the game anymore because of the new codexes, mainly Tau and Eldar. I think they should just keep playing the game because there are literally thousands upon thousands of ways to play this game that don't include complaining. A couple things about me: I don't play gunline all the time, I rarely take allies anymore, and I don't spam anything like riptides and pathfinders, but instead change up my lists to test out different tactics. You think the Tau book is unbalanced? Thats different then being poorly made (thank god for that). How do you know that their strengths outweigh their weaknesses? I think that their strengths finally gave them the ability to overcome their weaknesses in certain situations like a balanced book should.

I think it is funny that all these complaints boil down to the Tau codex being poorly made of the Tau army being cheesy. Some of us have been with the army since day one. I never had issues with Tau in 5th ed. 6th made the meta change a lot and I had to go with the flow to fill the gaps that came as armies changed until the new codex came out.

I do not think the new codex is cheese, or poorly made. It is a codex that balances out the strengths and weaknesses of the Tau and allows for all sorts of builds now.

Can people spam certain units? Yes but this can be said of every codex, Chaos with Hell Drakes, Imperial Guard with Vendettas and so on.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It's probably the worst lore thing I've seen done to a unit in the longest while

vroooom vROOOOOOOM we are space robot motor cyclists!

 TheCadreofFi'rios wrote:
Yes I played 5th edition, pretty seriously too, I think one of my worst games was against a leaf blower IG list. Now that guy doesn't play in my local group any more along with a couple other people who aren't really wanting to play the game anymore because of the new codexes, mainly Tau and Eldar. I think they should just keep playing the game because there are literally thousands upon thousands of ways to play this game that don't include complaining. A couple things about me: I don't play gunline all the time, I rarely take allies anymore, and I don't spam anything like riptides and pathfinders, but instead change up my lists to test out different tactics. You think the Tau book is unbalanced? Thats different then being poorly made (thank god for that). How do you know that their strengths outweigh their weaknesses? I think that their strengths finally gave them the ability to overcome their weaknesses in certain situations like a balanced book should.

I don't agree with this. If an army can overcome their weaknesses, they don't have weaknesses. An example of a 'balanced' army would be Vanilla SM- they neither excel or are weak in any major areas if you play them correctly. This is the issue myself and a lot of people have with Tau in general- you more or less just have to deploy, shoot, and move away from your opponent if they get close.

Necron? Short ranged shooting and terrible in melee (mindshackle Scarabs/Wraiths excluded, but that is part of the books cheese).

IG? Terrifying shooting, but very vulnerable to assault and alpha strikes.

Tau don't care about either of these issues as a shooty army while the others do. It's a shame really because while I agree Tau did need major improvements, they basically gave the book a sweeping points reduction while simultaneously buffing nearly every ability they already had, and added additional things to increase their performance. None of the other 6e books received such a sweeping heap of buffs and universal improvements.

I don't think most people's problem with the new Tau is that they are good at shooting, the problem lies in a few spikes, mainly the hilariously undercosted Riptide. Tau have always been about shooting and nobody would mind them being good at it, the problem starts if they're starting to get game-breakingly good at it.

Skullhammer wrote:
Personally I'm not seeing a problem with tau and I run daemons (no nurgle at all) and normally in a <2k list there's no greater daemons and mostly khorne use tactics, terrain, movement, threat overload, this wins games.

Initially I had some issues with Tau, then I figured out how to fight them with my Daemons. Now I have a nice 1.5k all comers that has been able to lay the smack down on Tau pretty reliably. Threat overload is the name of the game against Tau. Plus every model in our army always getting 5++ is pretty nice. Some people in my local are starting to think that Daemons are the "hard counter" to Tau. Those are also the people who think 6th is a "Rock Paper Scissors" game.

Tau are weak against assault, you have to get to them but it is not hard to do so. Drop pods or deepstriking work wonders. I don't understand this generalized complaining about an army that is good at shooting and somehow because they are good at one thing they must be OP.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

It's probably the worst lore thing I've seen done to a unit in the longest while

vroooom vROOOOOOOM we are space robot motor cyclists!

...Original necron destroyers?

Flying Toaster wrote:
Tau are weak against assault, you have to get to them but it is not hard to do so. Drop pods or deepstriking work wonders. I don't understand this generalized complaining about an army that is good at shooting and somehow because they are good at one thing they must be OP.

It isn't that simple, as mentioned with their preventative abilities/buffs.

The combination of random charge distances, overwatch/supporting fire, interceptor, and general TAU mobility makes dedicated assault elements pretty unreliable as a 'hard counter' to the supposed weakness the army has.

Drop Pods are great, but you would literally the majority of your army right in their face to do any reasonable amount of damage, and even then you have to survive a round of shooting before you can charge.

For a Marine army, podding or deepstriking anything that poses a remote threat to a Tau gunline eats up a ton of points, much of which you will likely end up throwing away to torrents of fire or AP2 shots. It's a sound strategy in theory, but in principal it doesn't work terribly well.

On top of this, this harps back to my main point- I don't or should not have to list cater to stand a reasonably decent chance at beating a specific army.