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Tactical_Genius wrote: You only have one turn to take it out if you go second. Two if you go first. Fire warriors aren't taking out all that in one/two turns. Not only that, but it's a bad list.
Trukk spam isn't effective with only 4 trukks, and so going BW spam would work better. This would mean more boyz, and more AV14. Good luck fire warriors.
With bw spam you can have max 3 units of boyz and 1 warboss
easysauce wrote: 9 pts for 30" str 5 weapon, and 4+ save is huge...
ethereals are dirt cheap, and give a ld10 bubble , + more shots and buffs, to all the fire warriors around them.
thats far more effective then 1.5 orks the orks will get shot before they get 24" to the tau...
orks do not have a 6+ FNP yet, so thats really not a good arguement to make...
tau get 4+ armour with cheap long ranged str 5 shots for 9pts, thats dirt cheap, for high str, range, 4+ is an awesome armour save... thats almost marine level, sure flamers/autocanons/hbolters go through it... so what... no small arms fire goes through it, and that is the point... may as well say 3+ armour is useless because of plasma/helldrakes too.
He never said anything about 6+ FNP. And you can't say that they're better because they're cheap, and then go on to say you have to buy another character for them. That doesn't work. Ethereals also give up VP, which isn't good in an edition that often comes down to secondaries.
You have failed to address most of the points given: •Lack of numbers. •Lack of special/heavy weapons •Have to pay a premium for support to make them effective (ethereals, fireblades, markerlights etc.), which means they aren't cheap at all. Grey Hunters are far better on their own in this respect. •No staying power. 10 rapid firing bolters at fire warriors will kill 4 (that being the most likely result). This is appalling for 9ppm. •Orks are probably better for staying power because of T4.
Orks in trukks lack numbers too (max unit size 12) Orks lack special weapons too (1 per 10 models and rokkits are useless) I already die to bolter over watch. Guess how well I will survive a str 5 bolter overwatch from multible units I got 6+ save Nope. Orks have very poor staying power. Hard to get into cc, lack the puch to do anything, furious charge wears off.
Er...no offense but have you faced Orks before? Either in green tide or battlewagon bash format? Because number one while you're right about trukk boyz being small in number typically that is mitigated by having another set of trukk boyz tagging along to provide additional support/soak overwatch fire. Anyone who runs Speed Freaks/Trukk Spam knows that you always go with the buddy system so you're not just using 12 boyz to do the work for you.
Furthermore it seems you ignored my post about Battlewagon Bash and Ork Boyz of 20 inside them. They are by far more common than Trukk Boyz and are far more fearsome as well with their additional numbers and thanks to it being open-topped they can be assault vehicles AND mobile-dakka bunkers that are relatively impervious to your vaunted S5 dakka as well with shoota boyz. Also they do have access to special weapons and you can't ignore this simply because you don't like rokkit launchas. You forget they have dirt cheap big shootas which only add to their massive volume of shots from shoota boyz and while rokkit launchas may not be the bees knees like meltas it does provide an alternative supply of supplementary anti-vehicle fire especially in this edition where you just need to knock off a few hull points and the vehicle is wrecked. This is furthered from the addition of the PK nob that still is invaluable this edition for cracking open tanks and tearing through people in challenges. Plus in a green tide list cumulative amounts of rokkit launchas and big shootas take their toll which you can't easily eliminate like devastators thanks to the high number of ablative wounds.
Also in terms of bolter over watch...again it's only on rolls of 6 to hit and not like the end all be all as you make it seem. Orks are all about numbers so even if one unit gets chewed up by supporting fire (which again makes them vulnerable to multi-assault and blast/flamer templates) it means the rest of the boyz are able to get stuck in after they waste all their shots on one unit. And if they spread it out over the others then they just set themselves up for more units to deal with to tear them apart in melee.
Of course the individual ork dies relatively fast (and even then at least they're T4) that's why they're bloody 6 points each and you take more than 12 of them to take on a unit! That's why mob rules there to give them fearless when they inevitably take casualties, and they can handle it! What more do you want? T10? 3++ invuln. save? I swear some people are so used to playing MEQ and TEQ armies that they can't understand how horde armies work and that armour saves by themselves are not what makes a unit useful.
1000 point list
4 trukks of boyz (~600pts) 1 hq(~100pts) +extra (pair of dakkajets, 1 bw with boyz or something else)
I would recon that two units of fire warroirs can take out majority of that list pretty easily while only costing 1/5 of total point costs.
I notice you haven't bothered to give any expository arguments or evidence as to my previous arguments as Tactical_Genius pointed out...
You have failed to address most of the points given: •Lack of numbers. •Lack of special/heavy weapons •Have to pay a premium for support to make them effective (ethereals, fireblades, markerlights etc.), which means they aren't cheap at all. Grey Hunters are far better on their own in this respect. •No staying power. 10 rapid firing bolters at fire warriors will kill 4 (that being the most likely result). This is appalling for 9ppm. •Orks are probably better for staying power because of T4.
Not to mention that this list only accounts for trukk boyz and not battlewagon bash nor a green tide list both of which are even more likely to hand a castling Tau-gun line formation their asses. Also you chose a random trukk list without giving any details as to how it would be defeated by 2 units of fire warriors considering that "100 point HQ" is probably a Big Mek with a KFF making the survival of those trukks even more likely. Throw in the fact that those tau fire warrior units can each only shoot at one trukk at a time alongside the possibility of night fighting makes it even harder for them to likely down them fast enough to handle the additional trukks with boyz. If the orks manage to get first turn the Tau basically have only one round of shooting (because going flat out mixed in with normal movement makes them dangerously close with a 24" zoom down the table) possible to try and take out a max of 2 trukks which may or may not kareen + explode into your Tau Fire Warrior units or just break down with no Ork casualties. Furthermore, I'm presuming that those 2 units are castling within 6" of each other for supporting fire, meaning that they are easily in range of getting multi-assaulted making them even likelier to get caught in combat simultaneously and likely wiping them out even with a weakened squad of boyz.
Then against stuff like Battlewagon Bash you require, as previously shown, outside help from Crisis Suits, Hammerheads, Broadsides or Riptides to handle the high frontal AV or to try and get side/rear armour shots that Fire Warriors would find hard to manoeuvre around without being assaulted by the unit inside or tank shocked into submission. Which this reliance on external helps results in showing that as troops choices they are not self-sufficient enough to be considered top tier troops choices. Even with EMP grenades they need to get close which defeats the purpose of having long-ranged weaponry.
Similarly for a Green Tide list Tau Fire warriors would be hard pressed to keep down 2 30-man mobz of Shoota Boyz where green tides easily have double or triple that number which, in conjunction with one another, easily start adding casualties with their loads of dakka (with on-par range thanks to big shootas, etc.) that steadily decreases the amount of return fire from your own Fire Warriors due to their small model count and their average leadership means they can and will flee once they take too many casualties.
This alongside many other issues with Fire Warriors that you have not answered leaves me very confused as to how you agree they're one of the top tier choices in 40K.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/16 17:37:41
It seems that the only people who have a legit complaint against tau are those that face 3 riptides.
While some stuff is strong (HQs, suits, support elements) I wouldn't call any of it OP.
the troops aren't the strong part of the dex, and orks are an older codex regardless.
Put a 1k list of tau against csm, da (weaker 6th dexes), or Eldar, and I doubt you'll see a disparity.
At 2k, unless 3 riptides are taken, I'd still give even odds to any of those armies chances.
Tactical_Genius wrote: You only have one turn to take it out if you go second. Two if you go first. Fire warriors aren't taking out all that in one/two turns. Not only that, but it's a bad list.
Trukk spam isn't effective with only 4 trukks, and so going BW spam would work better. This would mean more boyz, and more AV14. Good luck fire warriors.
With bw spam you can have max 3 units of boyz and 1 warboss
This list couldn't kill a single riptide without focusing entire army on the riptide.
Good thing you only need to lock it for the rest of the game.
Is there really anything left to discuss in this thread? (besides from OPs Battle date?)
Honestly this thread is just funny now. I am curious as well to how the OP's games go today and tomorrow against his opponent. But till then we have this roflcopter of a thread and people keep contributing the funny complaints.
easysauce wrote: 9 pts for 30" str 5 weapon, and 4+ save is huge...
ethereals are dirt cheap, and give a ld10 bubble , + more shots and buffs, to all the fire warriors around them.
thats far more effective then 1.5 orks
the orks will get shot before they get 24" to the tau...
orks do not have a 6+ FNP yet, so thats really not a good arguement to make...
tau get 4+ armour with cheap long ranged str 5 shots for 9pts, thats dirt cheap, for high str, range, 4+ is an awesome armour save... thats almost marine level, sure flamers/autocanons/hbolters go through it... so what... no small arms fire goes through it, and that is the point... may as well say 3+ armour is useless because of plasma/helldrakes too.
He never said anything about 6+ FNP. And you can't say that they're better because they're cheap, and then go on to say you have to buy another character for them. That doesn't work.
Ethereals also give up VP, which isn't good in an edition that often comes down to secondaries.
You have failed to address most of the points given:
•Lack of numbers.
•Lack of special/heavy weapons
•Have to pay a premium for support to make them effective (ethereals, fireblades, markerlights etc.), which means they aren't cheap at all. Grey Hunters are far better on their own in this respect.
•No staying power. 10 rapid firing bolters at fire warriors will kill 4 (that being the most likely result). This is appalling for 9ppm.
•Orks are probably better for staying power because of T4.
Orks in trukks lack numbers too (max unit size 12)
Orks lack special weapons too (1 per 10 models and rokkits are useless)
I already die to bolter over watch. Guess how well I will survive a str 5 bolter overwatch from multible units
I got 6+ save
Nope. Orks have very poor staying power. Hard to get into cc, lack the puch to do anything, furious charge wears off.
Er...no offense but have you faced Orks before? Either in green tide or battlewagon bash format? Because number one while you're right about trukk boyz being small in number typically that is mitigated by having another set of trukk boyz tagging along to provide additional support/soak overwatch fire. Anyone who runs Speed Freaks/Trukk Spam knows that you always go with the buddy system so you're not just using 12 boyz to do the work for you.
Furthermore it seems you ignored my post about Battlewagon Bash and Ork Boyz of 20 inside them. They are by far more common than Trukk Boyz and are far more fearsome as well with their additional numbers and thanks to it being open-topped they can be assault vehicles AND mobile-dakka bunkers that are relatively impervious to your vaunted S5 dakka as well with shoota boyz. Also they do have access to special weapons and you can't ignore this simply because you don't like rokkit launchas. You forget they have dirt cheap big shootas which only add to their massive volume of shots from shoota boyz and while rokkit launchas may not be the bees knees like meltas it does provide an alternative supply of supplementary anti-vehicle fire especially in this edition where you just need to knock off a few hull points and the vehicle is wrecked. This is furthered from the addition of the PK nob that still is invaluable this edition for cracking open tanks and tearing through people in challenges. Plus in a green tide list cumulative amounts of rokkit launchas and big shootas take their toll which you can't easily eliminate like devastators thanks to the high number of ablative wounds.
Also in terms of bolter over watch...again it's only on rolls of 6 to hit and not like the end all be all as you make it seem. Orks are all about numbers so even if one unit gets chewed up by supporting fire (which again makes them vulnerable to multi-assault and blast/flamer templates) it means the rest of the boyz are able to get stuck in after they waste all their shots on one unit. And if they spread it out over the others then they just set themselves up for more units to deal with to tear them apart in melee.
Of course the individual ork dies relatively fast (and even then at least they're T4) that's why they're bloody 6 points each and you take more than 12 of them to take on a unit! That's why mob rules there to give them fearless when they inevitably take casualties, and they can handle it! What more do you want? T10? 3++ invuln. save? I swear some people are so used to playing MEQ and TEQ armies that they can't understand how horde armies work and that armour saves by themselves are not what makes a unit useful.
1000 point list
4 trukks of boyz (~600pts)
1 hq(~100pts)
+extra (pair of dakkajets, 1 bw with boyz or something else)
I would recon that two units of fire warroirs can take out majority of that list pretty easily while only costing 1/5 of total point costs.
I notice you haven't bothered to give any expository arguments or evidence as to my previous arguments as Tactical_Genius pointed out...
You have failed to address most of the points given:
•Lack of numbers.
•Lack of special/heavy weapons
•Have to pay a premium for support to make them effective (ethereals, fireblades, markerlights etc.), which means they aren't cheap at all. Grey Hunters are far better on their own in this respect.
•No staying power. 10 rapid firing bolters at fire warriors will kill 4 (that being the most likely result). This is appalling for 9ppm.
•Orks are probably better for staying power because of T4.
Not to mention that this list only accounts for trukk boyz and not battlewagon bash nor a green tide list both of which are even more likely to hand a castling Tau-gun line formation their asses. Also you chose a random trukk list without giving any details as to how it would be defeated by 2 units of fire warriors considering that "100 point HQ" is probably a Big Mek with a KFF making the survival of those trukks even more likely. Throw in the fact that those tau fire warrior units can each only shoot at one trukk at a time alongside the possibility of night fighting makes it even harder for them to likely down them fast enough to handle the additional trukks with boyz. If the orks manage to get first turn the Tau basically have only one round of shooting (because going flat out mixed in with normal movement makes them dangerously close with a 24" zoom down the table) possible to try and take out a max of 2 trukks which may or may not kareen + explode into your Tau Fire Warrior units or just break down with no Ork casualties. Furthermore, I'm presuming that those 2 units are castling within 6" of each other for supporting fire, meaning that they are easily in range of getting multi-assaulted making them even likelier to get caught in combat simultaneously and likely wiping them out even with a weakened squad of boyz.
Then against stuff like Battlewagon Bash you require, as previously show, outside help from Crisis Suits, Hammerheads, Broadsides or Riptides to handle the high frontal AV or to try and get side/rear armour shots that Fire Warriors would find hard to manoeuvre around without being assaulted by the unit inside or tank shocked into submission. Which this reliance on external helps results in showing that as troops choices they are not self-sufficient enough to be considered top tier troops choices. Even with EMP grenades they need to get close which defeats the purpose of having long-ranged weaponry.
Similarly for a Green Tide list Tau Fire warriors would be hard pressed to keep down 2 30-man mobz of Shoota Boyz where green tides easily have double or triple that number which, in conjunction with one another, easily start adding casualties with their loads of dakka (with on-par range thanks to big shootas, etc.) that steadily decreases the amount of return fire from your own Fire Warriors due to their small model count and their average leadership means they can and will flee once they take too many casualties.
This alongside many other issues with Fire Warriors that you have not answered leaves me very confused as to how you agree they're one of the top tier choices in 40K.
^ This man knows his stuff 1k Green Tide (rough):
Big MEk w. KFF ~100pts (IIRC)
boyz ~ 220 (again, IIRC)
boyz ~ 220 (again, IIRC)
boyz ~ 220 (again, IIRC)
boyz ~ 220 (again, IIRC)
Maybe lose some boyz somewhere get some big gunz?
Either way, that list is pretty solid against Tau. Good Luck mr Fish.
Note to the reader: my username is not arrogance. No, my name is taken from the most excellent of commanders: Lord Castellan Creed, of the Imperial Guar- I mean Astra Militarum - who has a special rule known only as "Tactical Genius"... Although nowhere near as awesome as before, it now allows some cool stuff for the Guar- Astra Militarum - player. FEAR ME AND MY TWO WARLORD TRAITS.
FYI I am most likely getting in the first game tonight. I modified the criteria for the battle a bit, however.
I did this primarily based on the feedback received from everyone (both on suggestions on how to fight them, what to take with DA, rules clarifications..etc).
It's pretty obvious that optimized Tau will roflstomp most things, especially older/less focused lists. So we decided to take 'somewhat' competitive lists and see how the books fare against each other. Neither of us are going to spam anything, but we are going to bring good units and maintain as much synergy as we can without going full on 'tournament' mode.
The list I posted a while ago is predominately the same, I just tweaked a few things (mostly because I wasn't able to finish chopping up units and swapping weapons in time).
-Instead of Belial, I took Azrael who will be joining a Tac Squad in one of the pods. The reason I took him over Belial is that I worked in a Bike squad (instead of the Assault Squads) for another fast unit, and he makes them scoring WITH the Terminators. He can also double-tab a Blinding Plasmagun the turn he lands. All of the Tacticals + Terminators should be able to shoot 8 Plasma shots on turn 1. I intend to murder his Riptide this way.
-The Lascannon Devastators have been replaced with Plasma Cannons (removed from the podding Tacticals since they can't really benefit the turn they drop). I should be up in his face enough with this list with a lot of threats to vehicles to the point I am not concerned with not having these. If he mechs up that is less points shooting at me en mass, which is fine. Besides, 4 plasma cannon shots from a Dev squad is hilarious against suits, riptides, and any exposed troops
Really the only major changes. The list is very similar, just tweaked slightly for more plasma spam (I kept meltas on the bikes, however)
Best of luck with the game. The only major thing I can tell you is that Warhammer 40k is an objective based game. You will come out on top if you stay focused on your objectives. Focus on taking out his troops and try to ignore the rest if you can while camping on objectives or moving to contest already taken objectives.
Flying Toaster wrote: Best of luck with the game. The only major thing I can tell you is that Warhammer 40k is an objective based game. You will come out on top if you stay focused on your objectives. Focus on taking out his troops and try to ignore the rest if you can while camping on objectives or moving to contest already taken objectives.
Yep. I combat squad one of the podding tacticals, and the scouts. That makes 8 scoring units in the list, 11 if it's Big Guns Never Tire. I fully intend to break apart the synergy units Tau rely on and use literally 75% of my army to play for the objectives
Boniface wrote: i dont personally like plasma cannons, they just seem bad to me. I understand why you would go with them though.
Good luck with it.
Well I swapped for a few reasons- I have a saturation of things that can deal with Vehicles that are deep striking on Turn 1. The Missile Devs can also be used for this purpose.
While 4 Lascannons would be nice for the vehicles/riptides, I think the Plasma Cannons are overall a bigger threat to the vast majority of what Tau can bring to the table. Kroot? Ouch. Suits? Ouch. Firewarriors/Pathfinders? Ouch. Riptide? Ouch.
Granted I will probably end up blowing my own guys up, but I have a feeling these guys will draw a lot of attention simply because they do present such a big threat to what he typically brings. And for 130 points, it's not a huge deal if I lose it. The less fire he draws on my alpha strike the harder it will be for him to run away.
Is there really anything left to discuss in this thread? (besides from OPs Battle date?)
Honestly, no.
No one is changing anyone's mind here.
I know my (nor anyone else's) arguments have not swayed any of the "Tau are overpowered / ruining the game / , and i know none of their arguments have swayed me from thinking Tau are fine and are currently basking in some overdue codex limelight-ery.
-- Haight
Edited to remove some mildly sarcastic language meant in jest, but in retrospect could have been read as me being a dousche (which was not intended).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/16 22:46:58
Boniface wrote: i dont personally like plasma cannons, they just seem bad to me. I understand why you would go with them though.
Good luck with it.
Well I swapped for a few reasons- I have a saturation of things that can deal with Vehicles that are deep striking on Turn 1. The Missile Devs can also be used for this purpose.
While 4 Lascannons would be nice for the vehicles/riptides, I think the Plasma Cannons are overall a bigger threat to the vast majority of what Tau can bring to the table. Kroot? Ouch. Suits? Ouch. Firewarriors/Pathfinders? Ouch. Riptide? Ouch.
Granted I will probably end up blowing my own guys up, but I have a feeling these guys will draw a lot of attention simply because they do present such a big threat to what he typically brings. And for 130 points, it's not a huge deal if I lose it. The less fire he draws on my alpha strike the harder it will be for him to run away.
There is nothing wrong with Plasma. Please for the love of all that is good and right in the world post your battle results tonight from tonight's game. I am really curious to see how your opponent plays his army and if there are anymore glaringly off issues that you might encounter. If you have more rule questions shoot me a PM and I will be happy to answer any and all of them.
Good luck on the battle. Do tell us how it went with new options and the ideas presented here. I know Tau aren't invincible but they do hurt things, a lot. :-)
•No staying power. 10 rapid firing bolters at fire warriors will kill 4 (that being the most likely result). This is appalling for 9ppm.
I'm not really invested in this either way, though I will say, and have said many times, that unless you are putting a proper amount of LoS blocking terrain down, all shooting armies (this includes but is not limited to Tau) have a big advantage in this edition.
However, this quoted section is just not true. Only losing 4 Tau to 20 Bolter shots is pretty good for a basic trooper that costs 9 points. Eldar Guardians would lose 80/9 wounds or approximately 9 models in this same scenario at the same points level. Now, I'm not arguing that Guardians are poorly costed, I think they are about right, but Tau Fire Warriors are far from flimsy at the 9 point mark.
Tau...haven't really played them but I'll tell you what I don't like about them...the FLUFF!!!
Arrghh the Tau sound like such over achievers who are just full on annoying!!!!
They don't like getting their precious hands dirty so close combat is a no-no, the just like to sit on their lazy bums and shoot from the other side of the battlefield.
So that is why there is Dark Eldar. Fly them in super fast before the Tau even realize and the CC all the way, sprinkled with some poisoned shots. HA
DrSchwartz wrote: Tau...haven't really played them but I'll tell you what I don't like about them...the FLUFF!!!
Arrghh the Tau sound like such over achievers who are just full on annoying!!!!
They don't like getting their precious hands dirty so close combat is a no-no, the just like to sit on their lazy bums and shoot from the other side of the battlefield.
So that is why there is Dark Eldar. Fly them in super fast before the Tau even realize and the CC all the way, sprinkled with some poisoned shots. HA
Take that rainbow farting idealists!
Oh that felt good...
Dark Eldar? The original Alpha Strike army? The one that in 5th edition either shot off your entire army off the table due to massed venoms and darklights, or exploded on the first turn.
By popular request, the results of last nights battle.
I can post the exact army list once he sends it to me, but I can quickly overview what he took:
-The Suit Commander with his Missile posse (like last time)
-An Ethereal
-3 Big squads of Fire Warriors
-1 Small Squad of Fire Warriors in a Devil Fish
-An ADL -2 Ion Heads
-1 Rail Head
-1 Riptide
-2 Groups of Kroot with a hound in each
-2 Groups of Pathfinders
-1 Group of Stealth Suits
I posted the changes to my original list earlier, so I won't review that unless requested. This will be fairly detailed, so a warning that a wall of text will be inevitable- this is primarily to analyze the direction my list went (more competitive than last time).
It was 3 Objectives, Diagonal Deployment (a blessing and a curse).
I went first.
He deployed his ADL in is corner in front of a large area terrain ruin. the 3 large Fire Warrior Squads and all 3 Tanks deployed behind the ADL, along with the Riptide and one Pathfinder Squad. Everything else reserved. I deployed my Devs and Whirlwind/Scouts in or behind cover in the back field where the 3 objectives were. He had none in his deployment zone.
Azreal and his Tactical Squad, the Dreadnought Drop Pod, and both Terminator Squads deep struck in his face. The Bikes Scouted forward towards the ADL and behind the pods that landed.
He Intercepted Azraels Squad. Direct hit. 5 die even with his 4+ Invuln boost. Wonderful start.
All of my Dakka and the Flame from the Dread manage to take out the Pathfinder Squad and probably 5-6 Fire Warriors. I originally planned to Alpha Strike and assassinate the Riptide, but he deployed it behind the ADL, Fire Warriors, and a Tank. I had no room/good LOS to it, and even if I did put all my strikers near it and pour some fire into it, I would have taken far more casualties in the following turn with the Pathfinder support and more Fire Warriors alive.
My Back Field heavy support is all out of range of anything meaningful, which is also unfortunate. I couldn't deploy anything in or near cover and also in range.
On his Turn he killed all but my Attack Bike, one Terminator, and a few more Tacs/wounded Azrael once. Not as much damage as I expected, honestly.
The following turn was actually very devastating for him. I made a mistake with a Terminator Squad, though. I split fired on one of his tanks with the Assault Cannon, which prevented me from charging a Fire Warrior squad behind the ADL. I still managed to charge this same squad with one of the Tacticals, though. I split Azrael up so he could charge the Ethereals Squad, The Dread moved into position to flame the third Fire Warrior Squad/charge, and the Attack Bike moved towards a tank.
The Dread flamed and killed 8 Fire Warriors- satisfying to say the least. The Bike hit/penned, but he made his cover save (naturally). I then made all 4 charges.
This is where my rolling started to quickly spiral out of control. I didn't do much damage with my Tacticals, so the combat stuck. Azrael did a lot of damage (Ethereal denied challenge). Dread killed 1 out of the 2 remaining Fire Warriors (Dreads are embarrassingly bad in combat- a huge pet peeve of mine). The Bike did not mange to glance the tank.
The LD buff/Stubborn from the Ethereal allowed everyone but the squad Azrael charged to stay in combat- this squad ran away, however, and I rolled a 1 (+5 I). He rolled a 6. He ran away from Azrael. God dangit.
On his next turn his Ethereal Fire Warrior Squad rallied. He moved his tanks around the ruin and started to move towards the mid field along with his Riptide (failed an overcharge). One group of Kroot outflanked on the opposite board side near my scouts/devs. His suit commander deep struck over here as well, but behind a lot of terrain. His Stealth Suits, the Battle Suits, the Riptide, and the Kroot all took shots at my backfield support. I ended up losing all but 4 scouts, and several Dev models. He shook the Whirlwind. The ongoing assaults continued. I didn't do much damage, again. This is also a big pet peeve of mine. Although Tau have literally half the WS, they still hit you on 4's. The games WORST army in melee still hit's Marines on 4's. Well done GW. He also killed my attack Bike this turn.
Next, my other tac squad podded in and landed right in front of his Kroot squad that just arrived from reserve. I made sure to deploy on the other side of the pod to block LOS to his riptide that would have been in LOS, because the bastard can Intercept nearly anywhere on the damn board. A group of Termies joined the combat with the Tacs to finish it up, while the other squad started to head towards the central objective. Azrael joined the Dreadnought combat since my opponent added more fodder via deployed drones from his tanks before he moved. His goal was to tie the dread up as long as he could, which was working. I actually had targets for my devs now. The missiles/plasma cannons all fired at his suit squad. The missiles did nothing except against his commander who was up front next (he rolled a 1 for armor save). One Plasma Cannon overheated, 2 went way off target, and one hit. Total of 4 hits. 3 wounds. All this did was kill two drones near him. My podded Tacticals open fired at the Kroot in the open and killed all but 2. The few scouts I had left had no real good targets, so fired at the stealh suits. I managed to kill 2. He went to ground, though. In Assaults, my termies cleaned up the remaining Fire Warrior Squad tied up with the tacs, and Azzy/the Dread rolled like gak again and were left with 1/2 models left out of 3 separate units of Fire Warriors/Deployed drones. His Kroot broke and ran from the shooting.
On his turn the rest of his reserves came. The Pathfinders walked near the Dread/Azzy combat to further speedbumb me, while his Devil Fish with Fire Warriros in it drove on near his suits towards two of the objectives. His Ethereal Fire Warriors Separated and moved towards the Azzy/Dread combat. The Riptide moved towards my Devs along with his suits. The other Kroot squad walked on near the Tac Squad I podded. His shooting wasn't terribly good this turn. He finished a Scout Squad, killed all but one Missile Dev, and all but 2 remaining Plasma Devs. His Kroot took out a few Tacticals as well. He just sent more fodder into the Azzy combat, which went decently well for me. Still stuck in combat with a handful of models, though.
On my turn. I continued to move the termies towards the central objective. I hid my scouts behind a ruin. The Whirlwind moved because it could shoot now with a clear LOS shot, no obstructions, to his pathfinders that walked on. I managed to kill all but 1 (because he went to ground). 2 Plasma Cannon shots at the Riptide- 1 wound caused (invluln saved the other). Tacs opened up with pistols and killed 4 kroot. I charged. The tacs killed most kroot but he actually made his LD test so I stuck around (what I wanted). Azzy/the Dread cleaned up finally and consolidated. The Dread towards the center, Azzy to try to assassinate his Ethereal for a VP/Line Break.
On his turn he continued to move his tanks away from the dread/towards the objectives, and he parked his Devil Fish behind a ruin by the middle objective. He started to move his Riptide/Suits towards the middle to intercept the Termies coming towards the objective. He took a lot of shots at them, but I rolled 2+ saves like a boss. Not a terribly great turn for him really. He did take out my Whirlwind, though.The tacs finished the Kroot and consolidated onto an objective.
On my turn I really didn't have much left other than the termies and that tac squad... just a few remnants of support. The Termies moved onto the middle objective and fired at his Devil Fish. Nothing. In fact, I did essentially nothing to his vehicles all game with the Assault Cannon, random Plasma, Melta, and the Rocket Devs. He consistently made his 4+ saves, or I rolled poorly on the damage chart and did nothing but HP loss. Azzy Charged an Ion Head- only a HP loss. That's right. 5 hits with STR6- only one HP lost. 3 more plasma shots at the Riptide. Down to 1 wound. I can't roll well to save my life.
His turn he moved onto on objective with his Devil Fish Fire Warriors (disembarked on it). Riptide moved towards my Tacs/Devs on the objective. Commander and suits moved towards the Termies. He unloaded on me with everything he had left. Tacs down to 1 man. Termies down to 3 in 1 squad, 1 in another. Azzy got punked by a singled Rail shot and gibbed. Dread was immobilized. Scouts killed. Game went on.
Two Plasma Devs shot and hit the Riptide. 2 Wounds. He made both invulns. Termies charged his suits (I absorbed overwatch with the singleton termy, who died). He took the challenge with a crisis leader. I hit 3 times and rolled 3 ones to wound. He caused one wound to the Sergeant and killed him. Hammers managed to murder every other suit in the squad except the challenge.
On his turn he moved an Ion head in front of the Objective I planned to consolidate on after (hopefully) finishing the last suit in melee. He killed the last tac. As you can probably guess, he won via the back field objective- he also joined the termy combat with the riptide to tie it up just in case. I did kill it with the hammer, though.
So Tau won. Overall I think my list is headed in a good direction. I certainly did a lot more damage to him, and this was with rolling like absolute gak through most of the game (he mentioned it to me during the game- I didn't even say anything about my rolls. You know it's bad when your opponent says something to you and you haven't).
This list, with more tweaks/optimizations, would be very effective against Tau gun lines. My opponent is unique, however, in that he takes a lot of non-traditional units he outflanks with/deep strikes. That is the issue with fighting his list with what I have been advised to take VS Tau. The more resources I devote to crushing his back field, the less I have to support mine (which allowed him to mop up and take over that board side). I considered keeping more units back, but had I not devoted as many resources as I did his line probably would have held. It was a catch 22.
I honestly don't think I made too many tactical errors (save the Termy thing early game). The Riptide is still ludicrous (I will relent and say I don't think Tau is OP, but the Riptide is undercosted- really? 5 Points for the Plasma Upgrade GW? I pay 15 points for a freaking Plasma Pistol). Obviously I rolled poorly. My opponent also likes Tau Tanks, which I find ridiculously hard to kill with Marines. That 4+ and AV12/13 really makes it difficult.
It is worth pointing out there was a lot of LOS blocking terrain, to test that Theory. This is not a 'solution' to Tau. JSJ allows his Riptide/Suits to shoot targets and then hide. I can't then shoot him with mass plasma/missiles. My Heavy support is also static and not mobile, so if he isn't in firing lanes the firepower is wasted.
I managed to kill basically everything he had save his Tanks and Suits.
So again, definitely better. My opinion hasn't shifted on the Riptide (God, imagine facing 3), and Tau is still not terribly enjoyable to fight for me, but it was an overall better game. Had I not rolled like absolute balls I may have actually won.
" I rolled a 1 (+5 I). He rolled a 6."
If you Tie, chaser win i though.
And you also should be able to charge still against something that you spit fired with. so long as the original target is what your charging. (IIRC no book in hand atm)
Glad too see though it wasn't a complete roflstomp.
Desubot wrote: " I rolled a 1 (+5 I). He rolled a 6."
If you Tie, chaser win i though.
And you also should be able to charge still against something that you spit fired with. so long as the original target is what your charging. (IIRC no book in hand atm)
Glad too see though it wasn't a complete roflstomp.
He rolled a 6, then added his 2I, so he won the rolloff and broke away.
Regading the Split Fire, you are correct, however the Tank was BEHIND the Fire Warriors. I couldn't have charged both since I had no path to the Tank.
To be honest this sounds less like Tau are OP and more like you have bad luck rolling dice. Two very different things. We all have that issue sometimes and it really sucks when it happens.
Edit: Ninja'd by xenos.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/17 16:28:42
Sounds like a decent rematch. Yes Riptide upgrades are too cheap.
One thing though, your opponent made a lot of saves on his Riptide and vehicles. Was his Riptide using its base 5++ save? Did his vehicles have a disruption pod and move every turn for his 4+ cover?
Also I know your pain with bad dice rolls, I've had Farsight fail to kill anything in 3 turns of combat against naked bikers. On the topic of bikes though I highly recommend getting some raven guard. They have the speed and durability to weather some fire and smack some Tau face.
Xenos,I want to point out something you mentioned in your battle report(which was a good read I must say),something that as an Ork player having faced the new tau in several battles.
You wrote;
." Although Tau have literally half the WS, they still hit you on 4's. The games WORST army in melee still hit's Marines on 4's. Well done GW."
I think this flys in the face of all the tau players arguing they "suck in melee"..sorry folks but they aren't that bad at all,mainly due to the inherent game system.Sure tau aren't going to perform in melee like a dedicated assault army but defensivly they can hlold their own and often do just that for a couple of turns tying up a group of said assault troops.Remember..those Firewarriors also have a 4+ armor save which is huge in CC...actually for that matter Tau seem to have an across the board 4+ save vs anything that gets thrown at them but I digress..
BoomWolf wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but guardians are considered a lousy troop choice for eldar army, no?
And "only" losing 4 guys to 20 bolter shots...bolter shots....
Bolters were ever a viable threat?
Huh? Guardians are widely considered one of the best Troop choices in the game now.
I think I'm the only one in my group running a true Ulthwe army (based on the limitations placed in third edition) - 2 Farseers, Warlock Council, fewer Aspect squads then Guardian squads, etc..
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia
Purple Saturday wrote: Everyone knows the Weapon Skill vs. Weapon Skill table is poorly setup. It always has been.
If you're stood next to someone trying to kill him, whilst he's trying to stop several other people around him trying to do the same thing, you have a fairly decent chance of being able to bop him on the head with your rifle. That why it's a minimum 5+. Kinda sucks in game sometime, but it does make sense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/17 21:51:36
Well my issue is that the benefit to having a very High BS is much greater than a very high WS. It's polarizing, and doesn't really demonstrate a model or units prowess accurately.
BS 6 allows you to reroll to hit (you need a 6, but still). WS 6.. you still hit WS2 on a 3+. While it has been this way for a while, it's just another thing that makes Melee worse than shooting overall.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
