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This army is looking too good for me.

Now... I got to ask...

I know Deathwatch are not in the book, but surely I could make a Deathwatchesque army and be able to choose what CT I want to in every game?

Sounds like a dickish plan, but it will stop me getting bored of my army quickly.

Puscifer wrote:
This army is looking too good for me.

Now... I got to ask...

I know Deathwatch are not in the book, but surely I could make a Deathwatchesque army and be able to choose what CT I want to in every game?

Sounds like a dickish plan, but it will stop me getting bored of my army quickly.

Sounds a brilliant plan. People already make Deathwatch to count as BA, DA, SW, SM and sometimes even GK and CSM. Just make sure to let you opponent know your chapter.

It's sad that we still have to take special characters for their army-wide rules - but whatever, we can't have it all.

I hoped custom Chapter Tactics return, it makes the Codex so much more dynamic and adjustable. I'm building Deathwatch too - so this is giving me goose bumps.

I think 80% of all posts here are just whinery, it happens every friggin time a new codex comes out.
Realize it, GWS is a horrible company ... they will NEVER EVER going to release a balanced rulebook/codex - they want to make money on EVERY expense ...

Awesome first posts.

+4 internetz to you good sir.

Puscifer wrote:
This army is looking too good for me.

Now... I got to ask...

I know Deathwatch are not in the book, but surely I could make a Deathwatchesque army and be able to choose what CT I want to in every game?

Sounds like a dickish plan, but it will stop me getting bored of my army quickly.

That's a cool concept but fundamentally does not seem to make sense, deathwatch are all so diverse that them all having bionics for one battle or all being elite flamer experts for one battle would never happen.

daisho wrote:
It's sad that we still have to take special characters for their army-wide rules - but whatever, we can't have it all.

For their particular army-wide rules yes, but not for Chapter Tactics, so all's good. What would be the point in special characters existing if they had nothing special about them?

 ph34r wrote:
That's a cool concept but fundamentally does not seem to make sense, deathwatch are all so diverse that them all having bionics for one battle or all being elite flamer experts for one battle would never happen.

Bah, that just shows a lack of imagination.

Iron Hands 6+ FNP due to extensive Bionics = Watch-house with a close working relationship with a nearby forgeworld specialising in bionics or Armour. The force shown are those who have served for the past few years and have benefited from the repairs.
Salamanders Rerolls for flame weapons = Their greatest Watch-Captain in the past 200 years was a Sally who demonstrated the benefits of flamer-maintenance and correct fuel mix so well that even now the current Brother Tech-marines follow his practices.

Those are just for the ones you mentioned. The Ultramarine options are easy to explain away as "They are Elite Xeno Killers" from middle, close and long distance respectively.

Ok, maybe it is because I personally run a Deathwatch force myself that I have put some thought in it, but personally can't think of any reason I cannot think of a justification for to use these chapter Tactics. Feel free to test this claim as well.

 Vain wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
That's a cool concept but fundamentally does not seem to make sense, deathwatch are all so diverse that them all having bionics for one battle or all being elite flamer experts for one battle would never happen.

Bah, that just shows a lack of imagination.

Iron Hands 6+ FNP due to extensive Bionics = Watch-house with a close working relationship with a nearby forgeworld specialising in bionics or Armour. The force shown are those who have served for the past few years and have benefited from the repairs.
Salamanders Rerolls for flame weapons = Their greatest Watch-Captain in the past 200 years was a Sally who demonstrated the benefits of flamer-maintenance and correct fuel mix so well that even now the current Brother Tech-marines follow his practices.

Those are just for the ones you mentioned. The Ultramarine options are easy to explain away as "They are Elite Xeno Killers" from middle, close and long distance respectively.

Ok, maybe it is because I personally run a Deathwatch force myself that I have put some thought in it, but personally can't think of any reason I cannot think of a justification for to use these chapter Tactics. Feel free to test this claim as well.

Exalted for explaining it perfectly.

This was my way of taking it too.

Everything can be made up for fluff reasons - one of the first rules I learned from tabletop RPG.

I also assemble my Deathwatch squad-wise, so I have e.g. an Ultramarine tactical squad, one Imperial Fist devastator squad, a Salamander tactical squad with Flamer/Melta etc.
I know, it isn't 100% canon, but I like it that way - I'm sure it looks better on the table (too much different colours on shoulder pads in one squad tend to look childish imho) - and I don't care what other say about that

daisho wrote:
Everything can be made up for fluff reasons - one of the first rules I learned from tabletop RPG.

I also assemble my Deathwatch squad-wise, so I have e.g. an Ultramarine tactical squad, one Imperial Fist devastator squad, a Salamander tactical squad with Flamer/Melta etc.
I know, it isn't 100% canon, but I like it that way - I'm sure it looks better on the table (too much different colours on shoulder pads in one squad tend to look childish imho) - and I don't care what other say about that

You are doing it wrong!!!

Nah, man, whatever floats your boat.


I am really buzzed about the drop in point for the Vanguard but am a little scared about the drop of the Heroic Intervention though.
I am really excited about the chapter tactics and the potential for non-First Founding options, as i swear i read somewhere in the thread there were some other options, but not as good as the FF ones.

 Vain wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
That's a cool concept but fundamentally does not seem to make sense, deathwatch are all so diverse that them all having bionics for one battle or all being elite flamer experts for one battle would never happen.

Bah, that just shows a lack of imagination.

Iron Hands 6+ FNP due to extensive Bionics = Watch-house with a close working relationship with a nearby forgeworld specialising in bionics or Armour. The force shown are those who have served for the past few years and have benefited from the repairs.
Salamanders Rerolls for flame weapons = Their greatest Watch-Captain in the past 200 years was a Sally who demonstrated the benefits of flamer-maintenance and correct fuel mix so well that even now the current Brother Tech-marines follow his practices.

Those are just for the ones you mentioned. The Ultramarine options are easy to explain away as "They are Elite Xeno Killers" from middle, close and long distance respectively.

Ok, maybe it is because I personally run a Deathwatch force myself that I have put some thought in it, but personally can't think of any reason I cannot think of a justification for to use these chapter Tactics. Feel free to test this claim as well.

So your deathwatch force are somehow all on permanent assignment to the point where they all get cybernetic repairs, even ones from chapters that might eschew such things? And next battle they have no cybernetics? And as time goes on they all modify their armor to be flame resistant, except only some battles? The next battle they are bolter pros but the tacticals present in each battle forget it when they act stealthy? I don't wish to dissuade you from playing whatever rules you want, but deathwatch does not seem above averagely fit for using different rules all over the place, no more so than any DIY or low fluff chapter.

Anybody else irritated about the apparent drop in transport capacity for the LR and DP? Not looking forward to being unable to support assault or even vanguard squads with attached characters.

 ph34r wrote:
So your deathwatch force are somehow all on permanent assignment to the point where they all get cybernetic repairs, even ones from chapters that might eschew such things? And next battle they have no cybernetics? And as time goes on they all modify their armor to be flame resistant, except only some battles? The next battle they are bolter pros but the tacticals present in each battle forget it when they act stealthy? I don't wish to dissuade you from playing whatever rules you want, but deathwatch does not seem above averagely fit for using different rules all over the place, no more so than any DIY or low fluff chapter.

I'll do a deal with you.

I'll play it your way, where my guys are actual physical representation of actual soldiers and I will find some arcane method of dividing skills based on exactly the percentages of the FF chapter/legions they came from and will keep these rules regardless of what build I am playing with...

IF

Your guys are also actual physical representations of actual soldiers and you do not replace them between games when they have died. Instead you have to build, paint and base new models to represent new neophytes taking their place, as this will provide a far more real and realistic experience for us both.


OR

We can get our heads around the abstraction that this is a game with war-dollies and think that maybe your point that these are disparate marines from different chapters could be the reason why different strengths (and/or chapter tactics) could float to the fore depending on the force's make up.

Personally I doubt I am going to chop and change the Chapter Tactics all that much, and once the list is written i will keep it with the CT it was built with (no switcharoo just coz I am playing nids and X tactics are better for them etc) but I have no problem believing that a force lead by an Ultra Marine Watch-Captain would be greatly different to one run by a Salamander and if there is a chance to reflect this, I would take that.

rabid stoat wrote:
Anybody else irritated about the apparent drop in transport capacity for the LR and DP? Not looking forward to being unable to support assault or even vanguard squads with attached characters.

You do realize that the 12 Transport capacity was done by his Wardness purely to see if he could get away with it, and he was promptly chewed out by management? Its why every codex since then has it at 10.

rabid stoat wrote:
Anybody else irritated about the apparent drop in transport capacity for the LR and DP? Not looking forward to being unable to support assault or even vanguard squads with attached characters.

They got brought in line with every other codex.

I got a friend at the place I play who didn't believe they'd do it. I guess it'll suck for his drop pod list; he'll have to drop a Sternguard or something to stuff his HQ in.

rabid stoat wrote:
Anybody else irritated about the apparent drop in transport capacity for the LR and DP? Not looking forward to being unable to support assault or even vanguard squads with attached characters.

I am saddened by it, but far from angry. It was always the ongoing joke that my Lysander was mag-locked to the stabilising fins of the drop pod when he accompanied my full strength Sternguard squad into battle.

Did the LR really reduce? I havent gotten around to using my big boxes just yet so am pretty hazy on their capacity.

 ph34r wrote:
So your deathwatch force are somehow all on permanent assignment to the point where they all get cybernetic repairs, even ones from chapters that might eschew such things? And next battle they have no cybernetics? And as time goes on they all modify their armor to be flame resistant, except only some battles? The next battle they are bolter pros but the tacticals present in each battle forget it when they act stealthy? I don't wish to dissuade you from playing whatever rules you want, but deathwatch does not seem above averagely fit for using different rules all over the place, no more so than any DIY or low fluff chapter.

You can easily say Bionics = those Marines are so hardy/tough they shrug off even the deadliest wounds - hence they get their 6+ save.

Like Sisters of Battle with their Shield of Faith ... they only have that because of their zealous faith into their cause.

daisho wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
So your deathwatch force are somehow all on permanent assignment to the point where they all get cybernetic repairs, even ones from chapters that might eschew such things? And next battle they have no cybernetics? And as time goes on they all modify their armor to be flame resistant, except only some battles? The next battle they are bolter pros but the tacticals present in each battle forget it when they act stealthy? I don't wish to dissuade you from playing whatever rules you want, but deathwatch does not seem above averagely fit for using different rules all over the place, no more so than any DIY or low fluff chapter.

You can easily say Bionics = those Marines are so hardy/tough they shrug off even the deadliest wounds - hence they get their 6+ save.

Like Sisters of Battle with their Shield of Faith ... they only have that because of their zealous faith into their cause.

Or that each squad was issued a medkit (but not the services of a full apothecary with narthecium) which is why their FNP is worse. There are plenty of in game reasons why a deathwatch force can change from one game to the next. Even in the RPG, who you pick for your squad commander determines what benefits you get access to. Swapping doctrines from one game to the next may not be a perfect fit for a deathwatch 40k army but it's a hell of alot better fit than for any other astartes force.

 Vain wrote:

rabid stoat wrote:
Anybody else irritated about the apparent drop in transport capacity for the LR and DP? Not looking forward to being unable to support assault or even vanguard squads with attached characters.

I am saddened by it, but far from angry. It was always the ongoing joke that my Lysander was mag-locked to the stabilising fins of the drop pod when he accompanied my full strength Sternguard squad into battle.

Did the LR really reduce? I havent gotten around to using my big boxes just yet so am pretty hazy on their capacity.

Apparently its now:
LR/Redeemer/Crusader
10/12/16

IIRC. I guess I'll live with it, as its mostly going to affect my foot-slogging assault marines, but I'll miss putting 5 terminators plus a chaplain in the LR. Or a combi-flamer to back up my two flamer assault squad in drop pod.

 Vain wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
So your deathwatch force are somehow all on permanent assignment to the point where they all get cybernetic repairs, even ones from chapters that might eschew such things? And next battle they have no cybernetics? And as time goes on they all modify their armor to be flame resistant, except only some battles? The next battle they are bolter pros but the tacticals present in each battle forget it when they act stealthy? I don't wish to dissuade you from playing whatever rules you want, but deathwatch does not seem above averagely fit for using different rules all over the place, no more so than any DIY or low fluff chapter.

I'll do a deal with you.

I'll play it your way, where my guys are actual physical representation of actual soldiers and I will find some arcane method of dividing skills based on exactly the percentages of the FF chapter/legions they came from and will keep these rules regardless of what build I am playing with...

IF

Your guys are also actual physical representations of actual soldiers and you do not replace them between games when they have died. Instead you have to build, paint and base new models to represent new neophytes taking their place, as this will provide a far more real and realistic experience for us both.


OR

We can get our heads around the abstraction that this is a game with war-dollies and think that maybe your point that these are disparate marines from different chapters could be the reason why different strengths (and/or chapter tactics) could float to the fore depending on the force's make up.

Personally I doubt I am going to chop and change the Chapter Tactics all that much, and once the list is written i will keep it with the CT it was built with (no switcharoo just coz I am playing nids and X tactics are better for them etc) but I have no problem believing that a force lead by an Ultra Marine Watch-Captain would be greatly different to one run by a Salamander and if there is a chance to reflect this, I would take that.

Exalted. If players are willing to fork out for the different supplements, they are more than welcome to use whichever doctrines/tactics they prefer month to month, week to week. I could never imagine playing the same style every game.

Yep, this is a huge boost. Of course GWS just want to sell more minis, yes ... it was already there in 4th edition and now they gonna sell that again as "new".

But still I'm very happy about Chapter Tactics are back. I also hate playing the same list every time again. I love it to change my play and used to make a new list every time I play

 Snrub wrote:
Anyone notice this picture on the GW page?



That looks like the new commander standing next to the banner bearer. And those tac marines look different too.

Bottom left, next to the Cybot ... Is he holding a Grav-gun ?

 Ishandria wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Anyone notice this picture on the GW page?

That looks like the new commander standing next to the banner bearer. And those tac marines look different too.

Bottom left, next to the Cybot ... Is he holding a Grav-gun ?

I don't think so. The Captain is a converted Sicarius, and the marines have been customised with Forge World parts (and a smattering of subtle conversion). Going by that, the gun being held by the marine on the bottom-right is presumably another converted weapon (I don't think it's one of Forge World's weapons, though I may be wrong, as I haven't entirely kept up with their Horus Heresy range).

 Vain wrote:
I'll play it your way, where my guys are actual physical representation of actual soldiers and I will find some arcane method of dividing skills based on exactly the percentages of the FF chapter/legions they came from and will keep these rules regardless of what build I am playing with...

Yes, that is exactly what I am asking of you, very perceptive

 Vain wrote:
Your guys are also actual physical representations of actual soldiers and you do not replace them between games when they have died. Instead you have to build, paint and base new models to represent new neophytes taking their place, as this will provide a far more real and realistic experience for us both.

I'm always down to play some iron man, but you have to play too and I bet you put a lot of time into your death watch marines

 Vain wrote:
Personally I doubt I am going to chop and change the Chapter Tactics all that much, and once the list is written i will keep it with the CT it was built with (no switcharoo just coz I am playing nids and X tactics are better for them etc) but I have no problem believing that a force lead by an Ultra Marine Watch-Captain would be greatly different to one run by a Salamander and if there is a chance to reflect this, I would take that.

Some of the traits make sense for a force being lead by that type of individual, some don't. I wouldn't hold it against you for mixing it up, just saying that it still has some opposite sense going on as the deathwatch are so diverse and not singular in any particular tactic or strategy.

I can imagine the centurions being just
unstoppable in kill-team games

I don't mind paying for some extra supplements if it means that I don't get bored with my army.

In regards to the comments all bionics or all set CT, you are missing the point we are trying to make.

It wouldn't be that the army has bionics, it would represent some new tech incorporated into their armour to make it better. Or with the Sally rules, their Lord Of The Forge could be using better flamers and meltas - which works with the fluff as Deathwatch have access to much better weapons than regular Astartes.

The best option would be to give each individual Death Watch marine the chapter tactic of his chapter.

It was one thing I thinked about some hours ago. What about Apoclypse ... okok, I know Apocalypse is all about "to hell with rules", but it still has rules - and if someone want to keep it at least somehow competitive:

How does this work out?
Am I able to take a squad of Imperial Fist Devastator squad with their Chapter Tactics, one Tactical squad with Ultramarine Chapcter Tactics, one Raven Guard Assault squad with ...

Which is obviously broken, but I can't see why this doesn't work in Apocalypse?

Don't you basically take "Formations" in Apocalypse? SO there is no real reason why a Company of Raven Guard can't fight with a Company of Ultramarines.

daisho wrote:
It was one thing I thinked about some hours ago. What about Apoclypse ... okok, I know Apocalypse is all about "to hell with rules", but it still has rules - and if someone want to keep it at least somehow competitive:

How does this work out?
Am I able to take a squad of Imperial Fist Devastator squad with their Chapter Tactics, one Tactical squad with Ultramarine Chapcter Tactics, one Raven Guard Assault squad with ...

Which is obviously broken, but I can't see why this doesn't work in Apocalypse?

I'm sure you could do this, but I personally wouldn't look upon that very well. I'd allow it, but I wouldn't like it