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I have been reading alot lately that people think that the Dark Angels Codex is pretty bad...but I really don't see it it. I think it is very well balanced and a fun codex to play, it also has some decently competitive list off the get-go...

so why does everything think its bad?

Do people think it's bad? I honestly have not heard anything about them being that bad. Maybe not top tier, but certainly not lower-end either.

I think the problem people are having is that there's an awful lot that just flat out ignores cover saves this edition, and with Ravenwing being a pretty core choice in the book, they get swiftly invalidated. A Heldrake can just immolate a squad of bikers, Tau with markerlights and high strength/low AP weapons can strip off the cover save and wound them on low rolls, and while I don't know Eldar well enough to know their tricks, I'm pretty positive they have a means to as well.

The codex def isnt top tier, but ya it is fun to play ... there are a few units that are very niche (dark talon, deathwing knights) and a few that are terribad (nephallim). I think most people who play DA and think they are horrible are trying to play pure deathwing (I tried when the dex came out and its just rough), or don't take a balanced list. Deathwing / Ravenwing are hard to play because of the lower model count and takes a good bit of skill. Greenwing is really fun (sod + tacts & land raider crusaders is really fun) but I feel that most people would rather play CSM or another marine variant if they are using tacticals rather than dark angels.

When you compare the new dex to the new tau / eldar codexes .... it does feel like dark angels got the short end.

It's fun to play now, but it is more balanced to 5th edition than to 6th in my opinion.

As a DA player I can tell you the book has already been largely eclipsed by the new tau and eldar. Once the the new C:SM comes out in a few months there will be even less reason to play DA. I've said before, in the face of new xenos giant robot walkers, ap 2 basic guns, cover ignoring weapons, units within 6 overwatch etc, the DA book seems overly balanced and too much on the cautious side in comparison.

It's not 'bad' per say. Just really lacking many competitive builds and the standard codex creep we have come to expect from a new Codex.

I suppose it's probably because they do the standard marine route of paying extra for higher stats and armor, unfortunately in the current state of the game the extra armor and toughness is pretty useless (because they can be invalidated pretty easily by this point. The standard marine stat block is just not that scary anymore).

The current book missions heavily favor armies that can put out scoring for cheap, DA cannot do this in any meaningful way.

Whats more, other books tend to divide their scoring and their punch, that means the adversary has to decide in which priority their killing power should be spent each turn. DA on the other hand, takes the scary killing power and attaches it to the scoring power.

When I see a deathwing army, I have absolutely no difficulty in choosing what I ought to kill first. I just have to setup to receive that first drop, and then I can focus ten or more units firing on around 3-4 targets. Worse still, I can spread out/reserve game and then entirely ignore the opponent. Some other armies can do this so well, that in one turn, they've moved so far away that there's no chance of being in effective range again if they choose to keep scooting.

I am just puzzled by how they made the book such a bland and boring read.

Seriously, it's the fething Dark Angels(!). The Lion! Deathwing! The Fallen! Luther! The original Angels of Death!

It should be an absolute home opener as far as 40K fluff goes. But they somehow managed to write in a way that puts the most ADD-hyped 12-year-old straight to sleep. It's just bland.

I am still not sure how exactly they managed that.

Trust me, with 13-point space marines, it's easy to make a large, scoring army.

I was gonna say. It's got the cheapest marines ever.
If people think it's bad then they're probably running all bikes or termies.
Think Bruce Banner and go green.
Compliment this with other bits.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Trust me, with 13-point space marines, it's easy to make a large, scoring army.

Only CSM has that cost. It's +1 to that (Despite ATSKNF being only a 1 point difference.. )

Dark Angels are pretty much a bottom tier codex and they just came out that is probably why people say they are bad. When you look at what they are bracketed by Tau, Daemons and Eldar its a pretty poor effort from GW.

Grim Resolve actually makes them worse than normal space marines.

GW didn't even take the time to give them their own Psychic powers and the warlord traits are quite horrible compared to the 3 books mentioned above.

Factor into that what others have mentioned and the new Space Marine book is coming out and it will more than likely outshine the DA in every way, for a new Dex they are absolutely for lack of a better word bad.

As a DA player for nearly 20 years this isn't surprising. All the DA releases have been bad. Historically seems GW uses DA releases as a test bed for the changes they want to make to the Space Marine codex.

Last time they used it to test always having a Vet Sarge and Combat Squads.

I would expect the Ultramarine dex to get all the cool stuff the Dark Angels did like min/max squads, displacer fields, and power field generators and then points will be corrected for the razorback and they will have their own psychic list as well with solid warlord traits. Any other changes that GW makes to make marines better like they did with apothecaries and storm shields in the last edition will take 3 years to make it into an FAQ for DA and BA if it makes it at all.

This may seem like a QQ fest but it is based on History of the DA releases.

Overall as a Dark Angels player I have come to expect the red headed step child treatment from GW. I would love for DA to become a supplemental dex of codex space marines, with only 6 box sets for them we can always hope.

I was gonna say. It's got the cheapest marines ever.

The problem with this is that it is not from a view of balance, they have the cheapest marines because they are the most up to date codex, that is all. Once other marine books come along then this will in all likelihood disappear as an advantage of the DA.

It isn't so much that they are bad, its just that you get pigeon holed into building a certain type of army to remain competitive.

Building a balanced MEQ army out of them will provide you with a decent all-comers list - the problem being that they are just ultramarines painted green at that point. The DA codex doesn't really make them different enough from any other power armour marine force.

Deathwing - Running an all terminator force is just not the best idea and never has been. The model count is just too low, dedicated CC units will hurt you and so will dedicated shooting armies. You just end up with a jack of all trades army that doesn't have enough punch to perform the trades.

Ravenwing - A bike army is probably DA's best bet. The speed and durability of this army is what makes them stand out. However as others have mentioned, some units out there like helldrakes will just ruin your day. You can always do a mixed deathwing/ravenwing, but this is very hit and miss as well.

Building a balanced MEQ army out of them will provide you with a decent all-comers list - the problem being that they are just ultramarines painted green at that point. The DA codex doesn't really make them different enough from any other power armour marine force.

I agree with this mostly, the one part i'd change is ultramarines painted green.

They are actually ultramarines painted green with many things taken away and replaced with fluffy non-competitive alternatives.

Okay: Lets make something clear.

The Dark Angels Codex isn't BAD. Its a solid balanced codex, even if the fluff is a little dry.

When people say that its "Bad" What they are really trying to say, is that in a tournament setting its not as competitive as other armies that have gotten updates in 6th.

On a side note: I find it disturbing that every one of these thread that I've seen, Someone makes a reference to the Helldrake. And the fact that every Chaos Space Marine list I've seen, for a competitive tournament list contains at least two of them. So from My POV, the Helldrake is overpowered, and needs a nuff.

I'm pretty sure no one thinks that the DA Dex is bad, but it's just not amazing. Also, I think that when the other Marine Codices get update it'll probably be one of the lower-tier armies because it just doesn't do much that's very special and it'll be outclassed by other Codices with more bells and whistles. However, that's my prediction - at present, DA are at least on par with the best MEQ armies.

Ralis wrote:
Okay: Lets make something clear.

The Dark Angels Codex isn't BAD. Its a solid balanced codex, even if the fluff is a little dry.

When people say that its "Bad" What they are really trying to say, is that in a tournament setting its not as competitive as other armies that have gotten updates in 6th.

On a side note: I find it disturbing that every one of these thread that I've seen, Someone makes a reference to the Helldrake. And the fact that every Chaos Space Marine list I've seen, for a competitive tournament list contains at least two of them. So from My POV, the Helldrake is overpowered, and needs a nuff.

If it wasn't for that Heldrake, CSM would be somewhere near DA in power considering all the horrible choices in that dex.

Let's wait to see the Orks, Nids, IG codex's drop before DA players go into full whine mode. Right now Eldar and Tau aren't facing horde armies, and can focus on killing PA/TDA alone. A list that can take out a Deathwing army easily won't be able to handle the bodies in a greentide. Same thing goes for Chaos Marines. I for one am looking forward to seeing Noise Marines murdering Guard in their trenches. Enjoy your cheap marines and psychic hood's. Quit crying, you already stole the Sisters allotment of robes, stop wearing the girls undies and go kill something.

Hazard30 wrote:
I have been reading alot lately that people think that the Dark Angels Codex is pretty bad...but I really don't see it it. I think it is very well balanced and a fun codex to play, it also has some decently competitive list off the get-go...

so why does everything think its bad?

helldrakes. Both the marine swarm and the biker using lists are very vunerable to helldrakes and without good interceptor units of their own the DAs can't do much about them , They also got stealth nerfed just after the codex came out which imo wasn't needed .

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Trust me, with 13-point space marines, it's easy to make a large, scoring army.

Those scoring squads still cap out at ten models, and for that price, you can get near 30 from other codices (then you can up the cost substantially by adding fancy sergeants, special weapons and heavy gear. The game affords a ton of ways to negate saves of all kinds, and marines can't put enough bodies down to offset that without spending so many points that there's little left for toys. Not to mention, the only buffer available against some of that weakness is arguably the shittiest transport in the game.

My group is finding that all the 6th edition codex's are competitive with multiple builds...its the old codexes that throw the balance off for either good or bad....so give it time...when the other armies are brought to speed it should be a mainly balanced game.

 davou wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Trust me, with 13-point space marines, it's easy to make a large, scoring army.

Those scoring squads still cap out at ten models, and for that price, you can get near 30 from other codices (then you can up the cost substantially by adding fancy sergeants, special weapons and heavy gear. The game affords a ton of ways to negate saves of all kinds, and marines can't put enough bodies down to offset that without spending so many points that there's little left for toys. Not to mention, the only buffer available against some of that weakness is arguably the shittiest transport in the game.

I rarely put down more than thirty basic Battle Sisters, normally in three squads of ten, and even at T3 I always seem to have plenty of bolters at the line.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Trust me, with 13-point space marines, it's easy to make a large, scoring army.

Honestly I have to say this. Those 13 point troops are a trap. They have a hidden seargent cost which means they only get cheaper then generic space marines when you have 11+ in a single unit. Along with that, practically any upgrade makes them equal/more than DA meaning they quickly lose their usefuleness.

In terms of DA, I've personally felt that DA and CSM have the same problem. They were the first two codices and got the worst treatment as they were the most recent.

They're not roflstomping overpowered. Thus the internet thinks they're bad. They don't let you play the game on the easiest difficulty mode possible. Thus the internet thinks they're bad. Their gunline isn't as good as other codices' gunlines. Thus the internet thinks they're bad.

People knee-jerk saying that DA are bad actually tells you a lot more about the person making that comment than it does about DA itself.

My only real complaints are the meta-codex ones people are talking about, like the bland fluff and that nasty habit of GW using DA to road test SM, like 4plus said. Odds are, they're just going to get outdone shortly as the "real" marines get a codex with much better fluff, and more interesting options, leaving DA to be more of an expansion to SM, than a stand-alone codex. Just like they've always been...

I think they are perfectly fine, its just that people go for their "signature" Termie and Bikes, but don't do much else to diversify their force. Everything to me seems like solid choices, fun stuff like rad grenades and that insane psyker power that debuffs people, as well as a mountain of plasma. What it really comes down to is all the other armies that got special new fun things like helldrakes, riptides, Warithknights, while the DA got the extra lame plasma speeder and goofy flyers. I honestly think if their flyers or their landspeeder were just a little bit better people would have a much more positive view of them. As it stands, it wasn't the rush to get cool looking new stuff like it was with tau, Eldar, or even CSM (ZOMG! New Broadsides! ZOMG Wraithknights!, ZOMG Forgefiends!) so I almost believe psychologically people have assigned an "inferior" tag to them completely because of this. I feel this is a similar effect to Demons being completely eclipsed in terms of any hype, because they were not getting any insane looking newfangled unit that also had awesome rules. Instead both armies were relatively more of the same (demons alot less) and not a whole lot of new hotness to force into your current build.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
They're not roflstomping overpowered. Thus the internet thinks they're bad. They don't let you play the game on the easiest difficulty mode possible. Thus the internet thinks they're bad. Their gunline isn't as good as other codices' gunlines. Thus the internet thinks they're bad.

People knee-jerk saying that DA are bad actually tells you a lot more about the person making that comment than it does about DA itself.

My only real complaints are the meta-codex ones people are talking about, like the bland fluff and that nasty habit of GW using DA to road test SM, like 4plus said. Odds are, they're just going to get outdone shortly as the "real" marines get a codex with much better fluff, and more interesting options, leaving DA to be more of an expansion to SM, than a stand-alone codex. Just like they've always been...

I believe Marneus Calgar agrees with you. His pimp throne has been lacking its usual luster and he needs to go on crushing more Avatars with his bare hands again.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
As it stands, it wasn't the rush to get cool looking new stuff like it was with tau, Eldar, or even CSM (ZOMG! New Broadsides! ZOMG Wraithknights!, ZOMG Forgefiends!) so I almost believe psychologically people have assigned an "inferior" tag to them completely because of this.

Really?

The main reaction by people to Wraithknights, Riptides, Forgefiends, Helldrakes, etc.. was almost universally OMG Stooooopid!!! Terminators in Robes, on the other hand, was something constantly topping the DA-fans-wishlist for the past 20-years or so.

Yes, but they only topped the list of DA fans. For most players, a nicer terminator sculpt isn't going to be enough for them to switch armies.

I think I agree, though, whether or not that people think the new stuff that other armies have gotten is stupid or not, the fact is that the other new armies got new stuff. That does sort of imply that DA is stale, and thus not as well cared for by the designers, and thus not as good.

It's stupid, of course, but I can see why some people might have this reaction by instinct. Really, though, it should be thought of more like the Porsche 911 - just because the styling hasn't changed doesn't mean the car itself is bad. Interestingly enough, with a few exceptions (most notably the riptide), what makes any of the new codices good is the old, tried and true units that just got fiddled with to make their performance cleaner. I mean, one of the best things in the DA codex is the bolter banner, which means that one of the better things in the DA codex is tac marines. Hardly a flashy or ostentatious choice from that codex.

Interestingly enough, with a few exceptions (most notably the riptide), what makes any of the new codices good is the old,

Only when you don't count necron and their scyths , ABs and tesla weapons . chaos and their helldrakes , eldar and their new serpent upgrades . Then only codex that is still has old stuff as corner stone of builds are tau .


And saying that viewing the DA codex is bad , is mark of bad gaming skills , is false too. There is more plamsa in the game then in 5th and plasma always makes terminators work worse . At the same time foot armies and biker builds do get hurt by helldrakes a lot and helldrakes are run in many armies . This makes both DA "ways" of playing handicaped before points are included as a balancing factor.

DA have quite a few tricks in their toolkit they can use to great effect.
- RAD grenades. Do some mathhammer to see how good these are!
- Power Field. Giving a 4+ invuln to your vehicles is huge. Putting this on a model on a bike base increases the range of the field greatly.
- Great bikes. For 27 points a model they bring a ton to the table.
- Bolter banner. The capabilities of this tool are huge.
- Cheap Infantry. 14 point MEQ is a steal.
- Azrael. His buffing ability + the ability to pick a warlord trait is huge.
- Cheap Librarians. You can easily throw and extra one into a squad.
- Cheap devastators.
- Cheap whirlwinds (I'm surprised people have not figured out how these are great vs kroot)

These are the areas where DA are weak.
- Poor flyers.
- Poor anti-flyer ability (mostly due to lack of flyers)
- Helldrakes.
- Overpriced terminators

The best way to play DA IMHO is to run a green SM army with a splash of bikes or terminators. Don't oversaturate either of the latter two, or you will start to run across problems.