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 labmouse42 wrote:

- Cheap whirlwinds (I'm surprised people have not figured out how these are great vs kroot)

A little situational, don't you think? It's hardly a pro to weigh against the army's particular weakness to Heldrakes.

I think the aggressively mediocre to terrible flyers are one of the other reasons why DA aren't seen as so good. They don't have good anti-air without allying in something.

But helldrakes are very common ally.. And they realy get demolished by helldrakes . To counter helldrakes they have to mecha up ,but then the cheapness is gone and playing SW is more optimal

Why is the DA bad? Because this is coming from FotM players. So since they didn't take it up, or they went onto something more powerful.

Men and their plastic toy soldiers.

Davor wrote:
Why is the DA bad? Because this is coming from FotM players. So since they didn't take it up, or they went onto something more powerful.

Men and their plastic toy soldiers.

Pretty much. Since they weren't Necrons or Tau, no one was interest in Dark Angels or Chaos Marines.

labmouse42- The power field generator was nerfed a bit. It no longer gives the 4+ invuln to the transport and radiate from it. It only works on the guys inside if they embarked. It is in the DA FAQ.

Helldrakes aren't a serious threat if the DA player is giving his entire army a 4++. Good displacement and invul field spam should reduce them to little more than a nuisance.

And you don't need anti-flier weapons to kill fliers. It's not that bad of a weakness, but as people, a year out, are still hysterical about fliers, you can see why this would make a lot of people think that DA are bad, even when they're not.

 Ironwill13791 wrote:
labmouse42- The power field generator was nerfed a bit. It no longer gives the 4+ invuln to the transport and radiate from it. It only works on the guys inside if they embarked. It is in the DA FAQ.

It was getting pretty silly at times, you have to admit, especially with Landraider and bolter banner shenanigans

 Ironwill13791 wrote:
labmouse42- The power field generator was nerfed a bit. It no longer gives the 4+ invuln to the transport and radiate from it. It only works on the guys inside if they embarked. It is in the DA FAQ.

Not exactly. That's only if the model is INSIDE the transport. As Labmouse42 said in his post, all you have to do is put the character with the PFG behind the Landraider, and you achieve the exact same effect. Very common to give this guy a bike also, to keep up with the LR.

" Power Field. Giving a 4+ invuln to your vehicles is huge. Putting this on a model on a bike base increases the range of the field greatly"

Your reply doesn't change his statement at all. Putting the PFG on a lib/chap/techmarine on a bike, and putting it behind your 2/3 Land Raiders, gives them all 4+ invuls, just like before.

I don't want to be 'That Guy' but I actually like the DA book in terms of rules and units.

I used Mixed Wing and I usually make quite varied/fun lists and I'd probably put my success rate at roughly 65-75%, obviously not an uber competitive book (not in my hands anyway) but in no way a bad book.

Although in terms of fluff (more important to me) it is mediocre-bad. This saddened me greatly.

I think the only thing really holding back the DA codex are how terrible the flyers are. They are often considered the absolute worst units in the codex, in an edition where flyers are extremely powerful and prominent. A simple bit of errata could fix this, but it likely won't happen.

The Dark Angels aren't known to be a bad army, it is just that they only have a very small number of competitive lists.

Well they can put azreal in a blob of guardsmen giving them 4+ saves and fearless.
Then you put a librarian with a force fiel generater. Now you have two fearless blobs of guardsmen to hold backfield oobjectives.

Locrian wrote:
I think the only thing really holding back the DA codex are how terrible the flyers are. They are often considered the absolute worst units in the codex, in an edition where flyers are extremely powerful and prominent. A simple bit of errata could fix this, but it likely won't happen.

I agree with you here to an extent, our flyers are pretty bad and it does hold us back, but in general I feel flyers are much less prominent now in this edition as the ways to counter them have started to develop, I generally find a lot less flyers on the table now. While I personally don't ally much (if ever) with the likes of Tau floating around flyers have become fairly rare at my local group.

Don't get me wrong I still wish ours were a lot better than they are now, but we have ways and means to cope and succeed without them like most other books, although in some instances it can be costly.

Bah... I'm toying with a MSU'ed 5/6 Ravenwing squad (3 bikes, 2x meltas plus melta Atack bike).

That's the 10 - 12 troop units on the table.

I'm sure I can make it work.

Maybe go apegak and get 9 CML + HB speeders.

Toss in a squad of Deathwing Knights.

Very finesse army, but looks to be a blast to play.

Why go MSU style? Because, most armies are big huge blobs that can only effectively target 3-4 units a turn. Acutally, I'd be more afraid of a Wave Serpent spam list or the usual Necron net list, than CSM with Drakes... *shrugs*

 dracpanzer wrote:
Let's wait to see the Orks, Nids, IG codex's drop before DA players go into full whine mode. Right now Eldar and Tau aren't facing horde armies, and can focus on killing PA/TDA alone. A list that can take out a Deathwing army easily won't be able to handle the bodies in a greentide. Same thing goes for Chaos Marines. I for one am looking forward to seeing Noise Marines murdering Guard in their trenches. Enjoy your cheap marines and psychic hood's. Quit crying, you already stole the Sisters allotment of robes, stop wearing the girls undies and go kill something.

This... although I personally think the DA codex is a little lackluster, and they made deathwing completely unplayable in a competitive setting. Ravenwing/greenwing is probably the way to go.

DA Codex isn't bad, it's just that the other 6th Edition codices went a bit too overboard with anti-MEq and anti-cover.

 Glizzy6d wrote:

 dracpanzer wrote:
Let's wait to see the Orks, Nids, IG codex's drop before DA players go into full whine mode. Right now Eldar and Tau aren't facing horde armies, and can focus on killing PA/TDA alone. A list that can take out a Deathwing army easily won't be able to handle the bodies in a greentide. Same thing goes for Chaos Marines. I for one am looking forward to seeing Noise Marines murdering Guard in their trenches. Enjoy your cheap marines and psychic hood's. Quit crying, you already stole the Sisters allotment of robes, stop wearing the girls undies and go kill something.

This... although I personally think the DA codex is a little lackluster, and they made deathwing completely unplayable in a competitive setting. Ravenwing/greenwing is probably the way to go.

I had no idea that so many DA player were going into full whine mode. I love the new book. Yes, there are some underusable units, but so what? I wasn't expecting a Necrons book.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Glizzy6d wrote:

 dracpanzer wrote:
Let's wait to see the Orks, Nids, IG codex's drop before DA players go into full whine mode. Right now Eldar and Tau aren't facing horde armies, and can focus on killing PA/TDA alone. A list that can take out a Deathwing army easily won't be able to handle the bodies in a greentide. Same thing goes for Chaos Marines. I for one am looking forward to seeing Noise Marines murdering Guard in their trenches. Enjoy your cheap marines and psychic hood's. Quit crying, you already stole the Sisters allotment of robes, stop wearing the girls undies and go kill something.

This... although I personally think the DA codex is a little lackluster, and they made deathwing completely unplayable in a competitive setting. Ravenwing/greenwing is probably the way to go.

I had no idea that so many DA player were going into full whine mode. I love the new book. Yes, there are some underusable units, but so what? I wasn't expecting a Necrons book.

Well said.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Well they can put azreal in a blob of guardsmen giving them 4+ saves and fearless.
Then you put a librarian with a force fiel generater. Now you have two fearless blobs of guardsmen to hold backfield oobjectives.

That's a LOT of points sunk into dudes holding your backfield. Like 400 points before Guardsmen. That's dumb as hell. The point of Guard allies are for cheap objective holders, not to give you a place to dump yet more points in an already small elite army.

Azrael is a kickass character, but I really wish he synergized with the codex more. The best close combat units in the codex already have 3++ saves, and that makes his magic helmet kind of redundant. Sticking him with IG blobs is the thing du jour, but it doesn't feel right to me. I can't think of a fluff justification for Azrael, Grand Master of the Dark Angels, to be hanging out with a bunch of dudes with flashlights and hockey armor.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Well they can put azreal in a blob of guardsmen giving them 4+ saves and fearless.
Then you put a librarian with a force fiel generater. Now you have two fearless blobs of guardsmen to hold backfield oobjectives.

and this is a tiring net list with a good chance of getting cracked. I destroyed it with Tyranids. Imperial Guard is not always the solution to Dark Angels.

SoloFalcon wrote:I had no idea that so many DA player were going into full whine mode.

You know, I'm noticing something odd with regards to this. I feel like in the recent past, a new codex would come out and you'd have a few whiners, but most people would be rather excited. Their perpetual state of angst would be channeled against the most OP codex at the moment. I mean, there were some exceptions to this, like tau before their current codex, and eldar after their last (not current) one, but by and large, people saved their loathing for other armies.

Nowadays, it seems to be in vogue to practice gross self-loathing, rather than hatred abroad. Talking to most of the CSM players around here, you'd think that it was "codex: plage marines and helldrakes and everything else is unplayable garbage you should never take", rather than "codex: chaos space marines". You're seeing it with DA, and I've even, yes, seen it with demons, oddly enough.

Which I find kind of strange. If you hate your codex so much, why are you still playing that army? Why bother opening your mouth about it?

 Ailaros wrote:

SoloFalcon wrote:I had no idea that so many DA player were going into full whine mode.

You know, I'm noticing something odd with regards to this. I feel like in the recent past, a new codex would come out and you'd have a few whiners, but most people would be rather excited. Their perpetual state of angst would be channeled against the most OP codex at the moment. I mean, there were some exceptions to this, like tau before their current codex, and eldar after their last (not current) one, but by and large, people saved their loathing for other armies.

Nowadays, it seems to be in vogue to practice gross self-loathing, rather than hatred abroad. Talking to most of the CSM players around here, you'd think that it was "codex: plage marines and helldrakes and everything else is unplayable garbage you should never take", rather than "codex: chaos space marines". You're seeing it with DA, and I've even, yes, seen it with demons, oddly enough.

Which I find kind of strange. If you hate your codex so much, why are you still playing that army? Why bother opening your mouth about it?

Because those players who were whining wanted Necrons.

I've won the last fours games I've played with my dark angels over the last month against tyranids x 2 blood angels and CSM/daemons.

However I do take the Mortis contemptor which normally proves to be my useful choice

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Because those players who were whining wanted Necrons.

Hmm, I suppose.

Perhaps its one of those things where codices, as a whole, are slowly getting better balanced, and that there's a certain class of 40k gamer that thrives on cheese. Perhaps they'll start to evaporate as their supply of dairy recedes?

kelewan wrote:However I do take the Mortis contemptor which normally proves to be my useful choice

You know, it's funny, every game I've seen over the past months at my local store that featured a DA player featured a mortis dreadnought.

It wasn't until just very recently that I learned that the unit wasn't in the codex. It's just so ubiquitous around here I just assumed it was one of the new things they got.

 Brother SRM wrote:

That's a LOT of points sunk into dudes holding your backfield.

I bought a metal Azrael for relatively cheap off eBay, waiting for it to arrive... I was thinking of testing having a small DA, or rather aside from Azrael a counts-as-DA contingent (basically... Azrael, maybe 2xTLAC Dread, 5-man tac squad, Whirlwind?) with my BT. 20-man Crusader squad with with BT Chaplain + 3 servitors, EC and Azrael attached. That's 26 models with 4++ running across the table. Certainly not a thing to do in a tournament, but ought to be worth it for gaks and giggles.

Come to think of it... since any army can take any HQs etc in Apoc with no ally limitations, wouldn't that mean you could also put Azrael into a group of 30 ork boyz? Expensive dude to put there, but hey, it's Apoc, and still better than the 5++ you can get from the orks themselves with the Big Mek's KFF.

DA's aren't bad, they're just not particularly stunning if you're running a "tactical company" type list (might as well just use C:SM in that case), if you're running a Deathwing or Ravenwing army, or an army with both, they're fantastic.

 Ailaros wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Because those players who were whining wanted Necrons.

Hmm, I suppose.

Perhaps its one of those things where codices, as a whole, are slowly getting better balanced, and that there's a certain class of 40k gamer that thrives on cheese. Perhaps they'll start to evaporate as their supply of dairy recedes?

kelewan wrote:However I do take the Mortis contemptor which normally proves to be my useful choice

You know, it's funny, every game I've seen over the past months at my local store that featured a DA player featured a mortis dreadnought.

It wasn't until just very recently that I learned that the unit wasn't in the codex. It's just so ubiquitous around here I just assumed it was one of the new things they got.

I use a deathwing list at 1500pts and it certainly makes up for deathwings shortcomings. Such a shame it isn't in the dex as Mortis dreds are a dark angel special, I would go as far to say they are essential in making deathwing competitive I am toying with the idea of taking a 2nd although I may be called a cheese monger etc etc

I've played DA for 3 dexs so far, and I have to say I would define the current codex as a "missed opportunity."

Personally, I feel some very small changes would make the codex much more balanced and fun.
-Allow terminator/bike Librarians/Chaplains to unlock terminator/bike troops
-Add Mortis Dreads (DW have no AA option)
-Give the Niphlim outflank and S7 missiles
-Give the LS Vengeance 12" more range and outflank (seriously, why would you ever take this over a Vindicator)
-Put plasma (cannons or guns) on LSs

Other than that, it is a FUN army to play. I play DW, and I lose a lot. But I still have tons of fun. However, an army that came out not that long ago shouldn't be unplayable in a "serious" environment (I say serious as opposed to competitive because I like a challenging game, but not tournaments).

How did GW not realize RW is (roughly) the only way to play the dex? Why are we going to miss out on SO much with the new SM dex? We will make GW repent!

Just a missed opportunity in my book, but I guess I'm satisfied.

I'm pretty new to wargaming and have had about 5 games so far (I'm slow painter) I have played against tau, eldar and ultramarines. I have lost each game so far due to noobish deployment and terrible dice rolling but in every game my ravenwing are shot to bits early on. I do love the DA though!!

 Ailaros wrote:
Helldrakes aren't a serious threat if the DA player is giving his entire army a 4++. Good displacement and invul field spam should reduce them to little more than a nuisance.

And you don't need anti-flier weapons to kill fliers. It's not that bad of a weakness, but as people, a year out, are still hysterical about fliers, you can see why this would make a lot of people think that DA are bad, even when they're not.

Maybe if he makes a static gunline standing on a landing pad . If he has to move his models out range of it or the range of dismounted techmarines they die like any other foot marine . And on a landing pad you can't spread enough to not get hurt by 2 or 3 flamer templates . Bikes , which are the best thing in the codex , suffer the most from it . Terminators are +2sv and technicly immune to helldrakes , but the rise of plasma only means they die from everything else . If DA were so awesome there would be top players around the world picking them up and wining big events with them . I don't know much about the US , but in europ that doesn't seem to happen.