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I just attended my first tournament at a local wargames group - doubles format at 1k for each player. I definitely had a good time with some excellent games, but one was against the following list:

3 Vultures + punisher cannon
3 vendettas
Fortress of Redemption
2 Bombards
Marbo
Outflanking plasma vets
Astropath + other stuff (for a 6+ reserve roll for opponents)

The fortress was up against the back corner of the deployment zone, with the bombards behind it so they couldn't be seen to be shot or reached in CC. Apparently even once the fortification sections are destroyed they still remain as impassable terrain.

Does anyone have any idea how they would deal with this? Is it possible at all without a tailored list?

6+ reserve roll for opponents? I may be forgetting something, but sounds like cheating to me. I cant think of any IG combo to get -3 to enemy reserves.

As for the list, it is very extreme and highly vulnerable to RPS match-ups. Tau with a lot of Interceptor would give it a lot of trouble by neutering the flyers for example.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
6+ reserve roll for opponents? I may be forgetting something, but sounds like cheating to me. I cant think of any IG combo to get -3 to enemy reserves.

As for the list, it is very extreme and highly vulnerable to RPS match-ups. Tau with a lot of Interceptor would give it a lot of trouble by neutering the flyers for example.

Part of it may have been due to lucky warlord trait rolls?

Thats easy : Don't play forgeworld. Its horribly unbalanced.

With the current AA options available I don't see what is OP on the list. The bombard is the Str 6 AP3 ignore cover variant I assume? I'd think the vendettas would be the worst but these are codex. A good IG list would have seen you well with hydras, manticores, colossus and maybe a deathstrike?

Essentially that list has two elements:
6 fliers + Marbo
2 Bombards and whatever trash troops have been squeezed into the list.

The off board element is a huge points sink, and you can limit the effectiveness of fliers just by controling the board and moving under them. Any list which has a strong early game threat is just going to run this list over. If you play it right then he effectively gets 27 Lascannon shots over the course of the ENTIRE game assuming he rolls well for reserves. You don't actually have to kill the Fortress to table him (whether it remains depends on the damage results I think), so Pod based lists could easily go for a turn 1 win. Stuff like Flesh Hound bombs and Screamer Councils will clean up the ground elements before the planes arrive. Anyone with plenty of AA i.e Necrons (3 Barges and 3-4 planes) or Tau (Riptides and Broadsides) or even another Guard list going second (3 Vendettas coming on second make a mess of his Vendettas, and then can go to town on the Vultures) will also do fine.

This list isn't that good in an objective game. Outflanking vets? Lol. Those would get killed really fast. If your enemy buys an Astropath AND rolls the -1 to enemy reserves, thats still a 5+ best case, before including my own modifiers.

This list has pretty meh anti-MC. Vendettas are ok, but Biomancy and cover neuters that. Daemons FMC spam and Khorne Dogs lists would just run up and hit things.

Is this a 2000 pts list with double FOC? Otherwise this list should not be legal. Most notably only the the IA3ed2 list has the ability to modify an opponent's reserve roll by more than -1 and that is the long range scanner which must be on the board to do so. (and is very easy to kill if you can kill a single vendetta)

The easiest answer to a list like this is to simply take 3 manticores and 2 prescience SW libbys. This gives you about a break even chance to deal with the arty before the opponent can even come on the board.

I would also second the Tau as they can make mockery of flyer heavy lists like this fairly quickly.

Finally some simple DWA or drop pod assault lists coming in on 1st turn into the opponent's FoR would be hilarious. You will either wipe him out turn 1 or claim his fortress and use his own icarus laser against his flyer's as they come on.

You should note beyond the bombards he has very little to negate cover and even the punisher cannons will have a hard time dealing with units GtG in ruins or behind aegis lines. He also only has 9 lascannons in the entire list. You roll even 1-2 landraiders into this game and he will struggle to deal with it. If you field leman russ' and keep their rear to the board edge they will become nearly invulnerable. Then you only have to deal with the troops which should only be ~500 pts of his list maximum.

it was a doubles tourney so this is two 1k 1foc lists combined. This also keant two HQs with two warlords - presumably two astropaths and a lucky warlord trait for the 6+ reserves roll?

Not sure I follow the suggestions for a turn 1 tabling without indirect fire - how do you get to the units behind the fortress?

The fortress also had an icarus lascannon for 10 total, all TL at bs 3 or 4.

Is it realistic to deal with this without list tailoring or very heavy anti-air? (depending on availability in codex)

What army are you playing Hedgehog?

I'm not so sure that those reserve roll modifiers stack, but that's more a YMDC discussion.

 Hedgehog wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
6+ reserve roll for opponents? I may be forgetting something, but sounds like cheating to me. I cant think of any IG combo to get -3 to enemy reserves.

As for the list, it is very extreme and highly vulnerable to RPS match-ups. Tau with a lot of Interceptor would give it a lot of trouble by neutering the flyers for example.

Part of it may have been due to lucky warlord trait rolls?

Could at best bring it to a 5+, but not 6.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Thats easy : Don't play forgeworld. Its horribly unbalanced.

All the problematic components of the presented list are non-FW.

I would like to point out that officer of the fleet is the one that gives a -1 modifier to the opponent's reserves not the astropath who give a +1 modifier to bring stuff on.

Did you read my whole post? Manticores are a barrage weapon and drop pod/DWA are both turn 1 DS. Both of these options should have only limited problems of not getting to fire inside a fortress.

The icarus is not TL. You are correct that I left it out though. That does not change the fact that lascannons are not great at putting down AV14, it takes 3 hits just to average a glance not counting cover or upgrades.

I think this may progress easier if we knew what army you are familiar with. This type of list would be extremely trivial for some armies but is much more difficult for a number of 5ed armies.

 Hedgehog wrote:


The fortress was up against the back corner of the deployment zone, with the bombards behind it so they couldn't be seen to be shot or reached in CC. Apparently even once the fortification sections are destroyed they still remain as impassable terrain.

Not quite sure how it would become impassable terrain.
Are buildings themselves impassable?

List seems unbalanced. Are the Vultures FA or Heavy?

Counter=Aegis + 15 lascannon sabers=costs less than the 6 flyers. FW spam doesn't work well in a FW meta.