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So listening to people talk about average rolls and such..it seems there is a ton of weapons and jacks available that can destroy a khador heavy jack in one hit...so is there a real advantage to having the heavy armor and less numbers or is that more of a myth?

uh, what? I don't know of anything that can destroy a Khador jack in one hit.

One round, sure. But one hit? Unlikely.

I guess its a Cryx warjack...and it sounds like it eats khador no problem.

Err, as far as I know, even rolling straight dice (i.e. - p+s equals arm which is unlikely) its next to impossible to one shot a khador jack unless you roll straight 6s on at least 5 dice...

Assuming such a thing is possible, one cryx warjack isnt a "ton of weapons"

My main point, as this thread goes off topic, is asking if the armor on Khador is worth lower numbers or is the extra armor really not as effective as it should be? Basically a game balance question.

If these jacks can destroy them quickly are they about the same points? Etc...etc..

J0kerrMT wrote:
If these jacks can destroy them quickly are they about the same points? Etc...etc..

Khador jacks are the same points range as other Factions(most jacks are 6-10 points). Most Jacks that can take down a Khador jack quickly tend to be the 10+ point character Jacks or the 19+ point Colossals, though. ARM 20+ is seriously a lot tougher than you seem to think it is.

Unless youre fighting against skorne... a brobzeback titan is a terrible terrible thing to go up against...

Khadoran Spriggans (ARM 21) and Devastators (ARM 25 !!! ) are very, very hard targets to bring down. It usually takes dedicated effort or an absolute brute of a beast/'Jack to kill them in one turn (Bronzebacks, the Avatar, Mulg). Even then, they're practically immune to POW 10 (most infantry) attacks.

The thing about WM/H to remember is that Offense is usually greater than defense and any of the above beasts/jacks can also be one rounded. The Khadoran Behemoth, for instance, with its armor piercing fists is a nightmare against any 'Jack/Beast that it gets the charge on. The best thing to protect a 'Jack with is its defensive stats, but with positioning, your tarpits (Winterguard, Pikemen, Kayazy, et al) and then get the charge on the enemy. The best way to avoid getting scrapped is to scrap the enemy first.

Seeing as how the Khadoran 'Jacks aren't that different in points cost from other factions it'd be silly if those other factions didn't stand a reasonable chance of smashing the Khadoran stuff if the other guy does everything right (gets the charge, has full focus/fury to spend, etc).

That makes sense. I was under the impression that Khador was outnumbered most of the times, but had armor to back it up. Even the starter boxes pushes that idea forward...their starting numbers being 3.

it will take at least pow 18 to one-round a khador heavy without buffs. Multiple pow 17 attacks with hot dice might be able to do it but you are fighting against averages. With that in mind, a khador player should be able to identify the 2-3 sources of such high power attacks and make their jacks hard to reach for them.

There are exceptions of course, such as buffs from the choir or paingivers and armor-reducing spells like parasite.

J0kerrMT wrote:
That makes sense. I was under the impression that Khador was outnumbered most of the times, but had armor to back it up. Even the starter boxes pushes that idea forward...their starting numbers being 3.

I honestly don't find this to be the case very often. Khador have some of the most dangerous infantry in the game. Kayazy/winterguard/officer'd nyss?

Outnumbered maybe by a bit, but never anything super noticeable unless you run straight men-o-war.

Khador is an infantry machine. We can run huge squads of great infantry for very little cost. The only warmachine faction that's likely to outnumber us is Cryx.

But yeah, anything can be killed in 1 round if you're dedicated enough. Banes can kill a khador heavy in 1 turn easily, as can a lot of warbeasts. Especially Skorne/wolves

Khador doesnt have cheaper/more abundant infantry than any other faction, our warcasters and army composition are mostly just designed for two big squads of infantry and some support/backup infantry. The reason our starter box only has 2 jacks whereas everyone else's has more is only because khador does not have light jacks. Every other kit includes a heavy and a pair of lights but khador's just has two heavies.

If you compare our jacks to another faction's jacks in a vacuum, then khador's are almost universally slightly better in most ways. We have slightly more STR which means higher damage output. We have slightly higher armor and hitboxes. Our most basic warjack has one of the highest damaging attack in the game! However, there is a trade off for those higher base stats in that, we dont support our warjacks as well as many other factions. Only a few of our warcasters have solid warjack buffs (I am looking at you superiority!) while other factions like menoth have numerous support models that buff their jacks.

At the end of the day, we usually run more infantry than other factions simply because we cannot realistically run more than one or two jacks effectively, not because our infantry are somehow cheaper than other factions.

Honestly, almost any faction could outnumber us, we only have one unit worth running that costs 4/6 and it REQUIRES the UA on top of a support solo to be truly effective. That means we realistically do not have a single squad that is effective for less than 10 points. However, our squads are universally good. They have good offense, they have good abilities, they have good defense, they can handle many situations with little or no support but they get good support anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gunslingerpro wrote:

J0kerrMT wrote:
That makes sense. I was under the impression that Khador was outnumbered most of the times, but had armor to back it up. Even the starter boxes pushes that idea forward...their starting numbers being 3.

I honestly don't find this to be the case very often. Khador have some of the most dangerous infantry in the game. Kayazy/winterguard/officer'd nyss?

Outnumbered maybe by a bit, but never anything super noticeable unless you run straight men-o-war.

I honestly think the only time I have really been outnumbered by any noticeable margin is when I run Karchev towing 3 big jacks with him. Other than that, I usually outnumber my opponent...with more capable infantry blocks.

 Dais wrote:
it will take at least pow 18 to one-round a khador heavy without buffs. Multiple pow 17 attacks with hot dice might be able to do it but you are fighting against averages. With that in mind, a khador player should be able to identify the 2-3 sources of such high power attacks and make their jacks hard to reach for them.

There are exceptions of course, such as buffs from the choir or paingivers and armor-reducing spells like parasite.

Actually, a pow 18 unbuffed warjack like the crusader probably will not one-round a khador jack. You should only be able to swing 4 times for an average of 5 damage a pop for a total of 20 or charge for 18.5. That will take out a little more than half of the damage boxes since khador is usually around 34 boxes. You will generally need synergy/buffs/focus fire to help take down a khador jack.

J0kerrMT wrote:So listening to people talk about average rolls and such..it seems there is a ton of weapons and jacks available that can destroy a khador heavy jack in one hit...so is there a real advantage to having the heavy armor and less numbers or is that more of a myth?

one hit? probably not. one turn? definitely. then again, everything in this game can be "one-turned" - even colossal - I took one out in a turn with a single warpolf stalker. you just need to apply the appropriate resources. khador jacks can be taken down in a turn, but require larger input (via focus/fury, extra attacks, damage boosting/armour reducing spells feats etc) than other jacks.

J0kerrMT wrote:My main point, as this thread goes off topic, is asking if the armor on Khador is worth lower numbers or is the extra armor really not as effective as it should be? Basically a game balance question.

If these jacks can destroy them quickly are they about the same points? Etc...etc..

yes, because khador jacks can smash them back in a turn too. everything can be destroyed in this game. think of a pendulum swinging between "offense" and "defence". in 40k - which you're more familiar with, the pendulum is very much swung in favour of "defence", with 3-rolls, and FNP for example. its not unheard of for 3 or 4 squads worth of shooting to take down only a handful of grunts. if you have a hundred shots, and you factor in hit rolls, wound rolls, failed armour saves, and failed FNP saves, those 100 initial shots don't kill all that much considering how much offensive output you've unleashed. and this is space marines. try more "basic" troops with "basic" weapons. Compare to warmachine. take some of the most "basic" units with "basic" guns and compare the damage output. its not unheard of for 10 shots to take out 7 or 8 of their opponents. even more when you factor in accuracy and damage buffs. in warmachine, the pendulum is very much swung in the direction of "offense".

but to answer your game balance question - khador jacks can be taken down. they require significantly more resources to do so, but they can be taken down. and that's why they're just as valuable as other factions jacks - resource investment is higher in order to kill them. im in a journeyman league at the moment (our flgs has had a drought of warmachine play in the last six months, and its a nice way to get the vets involved again) and I've started a new faction (retribution). we've only done the battle box games so far, and believe me, high arm is giving me fits.

J0kerrMT wrote:That makes sense. I was under the impression that Khador was outnumbered most of the times, but had armor to back it up. Even the starter boxes pushes that idea forward...their starting numbers being 3.

nope. khador has lots of patriotic infantry, and few jacks. this is backed up by the fluff. if anything, all factions can play infantry spam and flood the board with cleap grunts if they want, and all factions can take low numbered and more elite formations. "factions" are generally not outnumbered - "builds" are.

I play Khador with my buddy who have Cryx, TrollBlood and Some Protector of Menoth. I like to play Irusk with his special Superiority Spell (+2MAT, +2DEF, +2SPEED). So far, the biggest impact I could get is with a Spriggan boosted to max.

MAT 8 (+2 in charge with the War Lance, +2 Superiority Spell, and even +2 with Irusk Feat)
POW 18 War Lance
POW 14 Shield

Let's say I used 3 focus on it: One for the charge, one for boosting damage with the lance and one to give me an extra attack)
So on the perfect scenario, hitting won't be a issue of any weapon.
Statisticly, let's say all the attack hits, now the rolling damage I will get:

1X POW 18 + 3D6 ( 2 Initial + 1 charge )
1X POW 18 + 3D6 ( 2 Initial + 1 boost )
1X POW 14 + 2D6 (Unboosted shield)

Giving us an average of 4 on every die, it leave ust with:
18+12 = 30
18+12 = 30
14+ 8 = 22

Let's say I am attacking another Khador army (I dunno why I would do that, but anyway... !) The average armor of a Khador is 20, it leave us with a penetration of 22 damages on 34 possible boxs. At the end, my biggest weapon can't even take down a simple Juggernault on one turn, unless I am extremely lucky and rolling only 6 an couple 5, which is statisticly close from impossible. If that happend, I won't have win because of my strategic decisions, but because of luck. I don't have any good knowledge with other army, but so far this is one of the biggest weapon in my arsenal I see.

 Qcbob wrote:
I play Khador with my buddy who have Cryx, TrollBlood and Some Protector of Menoth. I like to play Irusk with his special Superiority Spell (+2MAT, +2DEF, +2SPEED). So far, the biggest impact I could get is with a Spriggan boosted to max.

MAT 8 (+2 in charge with the War Lance, +2 Superiority Spell, and even +2 with Irusk Feat)
POW 18 War Lance
POW 14 Shield

Let's say I used 3 focus on it: One for the charge, one for boosting damage with the lance and one to give me an extra attack)
So on the perfect scenario, hitting won't be a issue of any weapon.
Statisticly, let's say all the attack hits, now the rolling damage I will get:

1X POW 18 + 3D6 ( 2 Initial + 1 charge )
1X POW 18 + 3D6 ( 2 Initial + 1 boost )
1X POW 14 + 2D6 (Unboosted shield)

Giving us an average of 4 on every die, it leave ust with:
18+12 = 30
18+12 = 30
14+ 8 = 22

Let's say I am attacking another Khador army (I dunno why I would do that, but anyway... !) The average armor of a Khador is 20, it leave us with a penetration of 22 damages on 34 possible boxs. At the end, my biggest weapon can't even take down a simple Juggernault on one turn, unless I am extremely lucky and rolling only 6 an couple 5, which is statisticly close from impossible. If that happend, I won't have win because of my strategic decisions, but because of luck. I don't have any good knowledge with other army, but so far this is one of the biggest weapon in my arsenal I see.

The problem is, you're boosting. You buy attacks when you're at PS 18, not boost. Boosting only adds 3.5 average damage, buying an attack adds 5 average damage.

A Conquest on the charge (or just a boosted attack) can one shot a Arm 20 Khador Jack if they roll a 15 on 3d6 and that jack is under eSorscha feat. Other than that I'm not sure what can kill a juggernaut in one hit.

Avatar or Crusader with Choir buff can do it.

Crusader with 3 Focus and Choir vs Arm20(not charging)

Initial mace Attack: 7 damage

Fist attack: 3 damage

bought attack: 7 damage

bought attack: 7 damage

bought attack: 7 damage


Average of 31 boxes of damage.

Avatar has one additional P+S so 4 more damage.

Not enough to kill the warjack, but it will not be in any shape to continue the fight. And any above average rolls will see it dead.


With Jacks, you don't need to kill them. Just cripple them. Unlike beasts they can't get healed super easily.

To be fair there templar, if that jugg has a cortex box left and a box left on his axe, then you could find your avatar or crusader smashed to pieces next turn. Granted, the jugg will basically be useless and almost scrap itself after that. This is what makes menoth more of a jack friendly faction then khador, they simply have more support to make their inferior jacks superior while buffed.

KingKodo wrote:
To be fair there templar, if that jugg has a cortex box left and a box left on his axe, then you could find your avatar or crusader smashed to pieces next turn. Granted, the jugg will basically be useless and almost scrap itself after that. This is what makes menoth more of a jack friendly faction then khador, they simply have more support to make their inferior jacks superior while buffed.

Actually, the Avatar would have killed it, and I doubt the juggy could take out ARM 21 with PS 19 where the Avatar failed to take out ARM 20 with PS 21.

As a side note of personal experience, I don't think I've ever had a crusader fail to wreck a khador standard jack on the charge. My crusader's dice must be on fire!

Skorne might be able to do it, but I doubt anyone else can

Mammoth
Pow 19 + 2 + 3 + 1d6 Boost + 1d6 Xerxis + 1d6 (Crit Throw)

Pow 24+5d6 vs Arm 20 34 HP
If all 6's are rolled that is .... 34 damage!

Molik Karn, Tiberion and Xerxis can reach 33 damage each

A Bronzeback can and will kill anything it charges. It can easily kill Colossals with Fury to spare.

BB with Enrage and Abuse is hitting at pow21 and mat7.

Charge for free:

Charge attack hits on anything but snake eyes: does 11 damage to arm 20

second initial: does 8 damage to arm 20, hitting on anything but.

This triggers Chain attack, Headbut hits on anything but. Does another 7 damage with straight dice

Initial tusk attack: Auto-hits, does another 7 damage.


With all initials out of the way and not a single Fury spent, the BB has done a total of 33 damage to a Khador Heavy. with only average dice too. and you still have 5 more fury to buy auto-hitting attacks with dice+1 damage.

 Talamare wrote:
Skorne might be able to do it, but I doubt anyone else can

Mammoth
Pow 19 + 2 + 3 + 1d6 Boost + 1d6 Xerxis + 1d6 (Crit Throw)

Pow 24+5d6 vs Arm 20 34 HP
If all 6's are rolled that is .... 34 damage!

Tiberion and Xerxis can reach 33 damage each

Slayer
Pow 22 Combo strike +5 pskarre feat +2 gorman rust bomb +2 dark shroud +3d6 charge

31+3d6 vs 20 arm...

Cryx can get close under pskarre/pdenny, but a one shotter is tough. I may be forgetting something I can add.

Ghetorix can as well with the gorax animus and warp strength on him as well as some other spell that gives str IIRC

I play Khador and I have never had a Jack taken down by a single enemy. If I do lose a jack in a single turn the enemy must litterally throw everything they have at it but that leaves the rest of my army frfee to destroy the enemy.

 thesilverback wrote:
I play Khador and I have never had a Jack taken down by a single enemy. If I do lose a jack in a single turn the enemy must litterally throw everything they have at it but that leaves the rest of my army frfee to destroy the enemy.

Have you played against mulg and doomy?

Yeah, have you?

Maybe there aren't many that can one round a healthy Khador heavy, but there are many that can do it with a little help. Hit the jack with a ranged attack or two before ending in the jack to finish it off.

If your opponents need their entire army to take out a Khador heavy something is wrong.