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I love my White scars. I use the Dark angels Ravenwing rule set and have enjoyed doing so however I cannot win if I do not go first. I have tried everything outflanking, scouting into cover, staying out of range and hiding nothing seems to work. I have a tournament in September and I do not want
my win/loss ratio to be determined by two rolls at the beginning of the game (who goes first and initiative)
In order to try and combat this I have decided to ally in some of my imperial guard and use the bikes as a mobile reserve (quite literally) to rescue my gun line.
Here is a copy of my previous list

My main question is which of the following two approaches is better and are there any glaring improvements I need to make.

List one

White Scars with Imperial Guard allies

HQ

Azrael

Troops

6 man RW attack squad, 2 meltas, Attack bike Multi Melta

6 man RW attack squad, 2 meltas, Attack bike Multi Melta

6 man RW attack squad, 2 meltas, Attack bike Multi Melta

Fast Attack

5 man Black Knight Squad. Grenade Launcher,

Imperial Guard Allies

HQ

Company Command Squad, Plasma gun, Master of Ordanace,

Troops

Platoon Command Squad 3 flamers (in vendetta)

3 Infantry Squads Lascannons, melta guns (led by Azrael)

Heavy

2 Hydras (for Wave serpents, will probably reserve these)

Fast Attack

Vendetta

= 1748

List 2

Imperial Guard with White Scar Allies

HQ

Company Command Squad

Troops

Veterans, Demolitions, heavy flamer, 2 flamers (in Vendetta)

Platoon Command Squad

3 Infantry Squads Lascannons, melta guns (led by Azrael)

HWT (mortar)

Heavy

Basilisk

Basilsik

2 Hydras

Fast

Vendetta

White Scar Allies

Azrael

Troops

6 man RW attack squad, 2 meltas, Attack bike Multi Melta

Fast Attack

5 Black Knights, grenade Launcher

= 1746

I appreciate this is a wall of text so thanks if you’ve made it this far, let me know what you think all criticism welcome.
Cheers

Sammael>Azrael unless you plan on using deathwing as well. Sammael is better all around. I would start there with your first change. Also I would go with IG allies since you can pack a lot of guard into an allied detachment forceorg chart.

 namiel wrote:
Sammael>Azrael unless you plan on using deathwing as well. Sammael is better all around. I would start there with your first change. Also I would go with IG allies since you can pack a lot of guard into an allied detachment forceorg chart.

I like Azrael with allied guard as he gives the whole 30 man blob a 4++ and makes them a more intimidating prospect to assault. I think you are probably right about the guard allies though, would you make any changes to that list?
Cheers

Maybe if you want to go first allie in GK, and get coteaz? gives you a reroll and makes your enemy reroll to steal.
Add in 1-2 dreadknights with your bikes and bam! you got a in your face shooty army with a side of assault you round 2!
Also if your running ravenwing I would suggest using the DAKKA banner, because it makes you spit out a grand total of 72 bolter shots a round.

Jpat1213 wrote:
Maybe if you want to go first allie in GK, and get coteaz? gives you a reroll and makes your enemy reroll to steal.
Add in 1-2 dreadknights with your bikes and bam! you got a in your face shooty army with a side of assault you round 2!
Also if your running ravenwing I would suggest using the DAKKA banner, because it makes you spit out a grand total of 72 bolter shots a round.

Interesting idea, trying to take someone who is more likely to give me first turn. There is a DE character who does this as well I believe....
My pure RW list always includes the dakka banner and can spit out 112 T/L bolter shots at 24", doesn't help if I don't get first turn though...

 jamin484 wrote:

 namiel wrote:
Sammael>Azrael unless you plan on using deathwing as well. Sammael is better all around. I would start there with your first change. Also I would go with IG allies since you can pack a lot of guard into an allied detachment forceorg chart.

I like Azrael with allied guard as he gives the whole 30 man blob a 4++ and makes them a more intimidating prospect to assault. I think you are probably right about the guard allies though, would you make any changes to that list?
Cheers

recheck the rule because he may not give the 4++ to an allied army

 namiel wrote:

 jamin484 wrote:

 namiel wrote:
Sammael>Azrael unless you plan on using deathwing as well. Sammael is better all around. I would start there with your first change. Also I would go with IG allies since you can pack a lot of guard into an allied detachment forceorg chart.

I like Azrael with allied guard as he gives the whole 30 man blob a 4++ and makes them a more intimidating prospect to assault. I think you are probably right about the guard allies though, would you make any changes to that list?
Cheers

recheck the rule because he may not give the 4++ to an allied army

He does, His rules state that he givesa 4++ to the squad he is in and as long as he can be apart of the squad they have it.