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What about when you want to move at the start of the next turn? You aren't told to check. So you're saying it IS a persistent state - you checked last turn at the one point it is explicitly mentioned, and the unit was locked. They are only no longer locked as soon as you check against the definition of "locked" and it is no longer true. Technically you wouldn't even be able to make a consolidation move after combat without checking to see if the unit is still locked. Just face it, there are numerous points where you check to see if a unit is locked besides the start of the Fight Sub-phase.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
What about when you want to move at the start of the next turn? You aren't told to check.

Really? Let's check page 10...

Units already locked in close combat with the enemy cannot move during the Movement phase.

Oh - nope, that statement is wrong.

So you're saying it IS a persistent state - you checked last turn at the one point it is explicitly mentioned, and the unit was locked. Technically you wouldn't even be able to make a consolidation move after combat without checking to see if the unit is still locked. Just face it, there are numerous points where you check to see if a unit is locked besides the start of the Fight Sub-phase.

Yes - and you're told every time. That doesn't mean it's persistent. It means you're told to check and those times you're told to check are the only ones that matter.

And on page 21, you're told to check before firing Overwatch. How is that any different?

"It's worth pointing out that units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch"

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
And on page 21, you're told to check before firing Overwatch. How is that any different?

"It's worth pointing out that units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch"

It's not? I never said it is...

Were we violently agreeing?

Probably! I was going for argumentum ad absurdum. A unit that has just been charged is locked and can't Overwatch at a second charging unit instead. You have to check anytime it's relevant, not just the start of the Fight Sub-Phase, otherwise the whole game breaks.

A unit is locked in combat when they are in BTB with an enemy model. pg 23

A charge move allows you to move all of the models in the charging unit into BTB with an enemy model. pg 21.

Charges are sequential, not simultaneous as shown by the order on page 20. specifically #5 Declare next charge.

Models locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21.

That is RAW.

This is a silly discussion. Just because the term "locked" is defined during the subphase doesnt mean thats the only time you check it.

Might as well say you cant shoot with bolters because its defined after the shooting phase in the BRB.


RAW- If you are in base to base you are in Combat. End of discussion.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not a continuous effect. It's a rule that explains what locked means. You're told when to check - which means that in your example Player B would be fine.

This is 100% incorrect...

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

This applies at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not a continuous effect. It's a rule that explains what locked means. You're told when to check - which means that in your example Player B would be fine.

This is 100% incorrect...

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

This applies at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy...

No, that's not true. You must (meaning there is no option) have a reference to apply a rule.
During a charge move there is no reference requiring you to apply the rule.
Prior to making a charge move there is.
Prior to making a normal move there is.
Prior to shooting there is.
Prior to overwatch there is.

You've cited literally zero rules to support this "ongoing state" argument other than the sentence you've quoted. The sentence you've quoted does not say it's an ongoing state/continuous effect/whatever you want to call it.
You've shown zero rules support.

The rule either applies at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy, Or it does not apply at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy

Which is it?

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule either applies at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy, Or it does not apply at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy

Which is it?

The rule applies any time a model is in base to base. The definition for when a model is locked gives no mention of when it is applied or checked; it's a blanket definition.

However, the rulebook gives specific times that you should check to see if a model is locked (before Moving, Shooting, Charging, Overwatch). It also explicitly gives permission to do certain things, like move all the models in a unit when Charging, or Falling Back after losing a close combat (edit: it's not so much permission as instruction, you are REQUIRED to do those things). Those would both be cases of moving models in units that are technically locked in combat - the rulebook specifically tells you to do this. This really should not be contentious, but GW couldn't write watertight rules to save their lives.

So if it applies "any time a model is in base to base"

It applied as soon as the initial charger gets into base contact...

 DeathReaper wrote:
So if it applies "any time a model is in base to base"

It applied as soon as the initial charger gets into base contact...

But as the unit moves as a whole. You would move your entire unit it's charge move as pg 21 tells you to, then be considered locked in combat.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So if it applies "any time a model is in base to base"

It applied as soon as the initial charger gets into base contact...

But as the unit moves as a whole. You would move your entire unit it's charge move as pg 21 tells you to, then be considered locked in combat.

Except then you would have models making non pile in or fallback moves whilst the unit is locked in combat.

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So if it applies "any time a model is in base to base"

It applied as soon as the initial charger gets into base contact...

But as the unit moves as a whole. You would move your entire unit it's charge move as pg 21 tells you to, then be considered locked in combat.

Except then you would have models making non pile in or fallback moves whilst the unit is locked in combat.

Which is fine, since the rulebook very, very clearly tells you to do just that. It even gives really detailed instructions on how to do it. This is what's called an "exception to the rule."

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So if it applies "any time a model is in base to base"

It applied as soon as the initial charger gets into base contact...

But as the unit moves as a whole. You would move your entire unit it's charge move as pg 21 tells you to, then be considered locked in combat.

Except then you would have models making non pile in or fallback moves whilst the unit is locked in combat.

Which is fine, since the rulebook very, very clearly tells you to do just that. It even gives really detailed instructions on how to do it. This is what's called an "exception to the rule."

And when you have a restriction, you must have specific permission to override said restriction (which charging does not have).

You have no permission to interrupt the charge move to check for locked.

Charge move is specific permission to move "ALL" of you models into BTB.

Getting more specific, move (movement phase) or shoot (shooting phase) is not equal to "charge move", which is a narrowly defined action.

Finally, your entire argument has zero RAW basis.. The entirety of it is "RAW charge moves dont work so I can fire Overwatch."

 Happyjew wrote:
And when you have a restriction, you must have specific permission to override said restriction (which charging does not have).

Locked in CC says they cannot move.
Charge Move says you must move them into base contact.

Conclusion: GW rule-writers do not have a Master of Laws academic degree.
Let's do the logical thing and allow the player to finish his charge move, okay?

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule either applies at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy, Or it does not apply at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy

Which is it?

It does not apply at all times.
The restriction applies when it is checked for.

So units are not locked when they have one or more models in base contact with an enemy?

The rules disagree.

This thread (just like that last few times it came up) is going nowhere. All relevant arguments have been made. It needs an FAQ (IMO). Can we please just get this locked?

 DeathReaper wrote:
So units are not locked when they have one or more models in base contact with an enemy?

The rules disagree.

That's not what I said. Do not misrepresent my position.
Units are locked when you have permission to check if they are locked.
Cite permission to check during a charge move. You've utterly failed to do so. Instead you've pretended that a definition of "locked" creates a continuous effect that occurs without the rule even being referenced.
How do I know to check for locked status? Why am I checking for locked status without being told to?

Boil it down:
For a rule to apply you must be told it applies.
You are told, explicitly, what rules apply during a charge move.
None of them (that is, not a single rule) refer to the locked status of a unit.

But please - hang your hat on an unsupported hook and pretend you're right. I'll be over here using the actual rules and understanding how a permissive rule set works.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So units are not locked when they have one or more models in base contact with an enemy?

The rules disagree.

That's not what I said. Do not misrepresent my position.
Units are locked when you have permission to check if they are locked.

The rules disagree with you.

Units are locked when they have a model in base contact with an enemy. (Page 23 tells us this)

Got anything else because you have shown no rules that agree with your assertation.

Its like Synapse. Its always happening but you don't apply the effects until you need to check for Synapse.

When my units are outside synapse range they are subject to Feed or Lurk. The codex tells me when I am considered in and out of synapse. However, I can be outside synapse and not yet subject to feed or lurk, becuase I am not at a point to check for it.

that is not a correct assertion, do not confuse army specific abbilities with core rules for game play, your army specific only applies during a set phase and over-rides the core books normal movement phase.


with regards to the arguement.

I do not see where you are comming from regeld2.

it is very clear on p23 what constitues the locked status, it isn't conditional, and does not apply only when your asked to check. it is very clear when locked status is applied to you.

it is applied once an enemy completes a charge agasint you and is in base contact with your unit. that unit is considered locked until it is either destroyed or no longer in base contact.

the logic of requiring to check if status' apply is very flawed as by it's deffinition no model is wareing armour unless you have to check to see if they do.

also by the same logic, SR's such as furious charge for example would never come into effect as at no point during the charge step are you asked to check if you have such rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule either applies at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy, Or it does not apply at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy

Which is it?

It does not apply at all times.
The restriction applies when it is checked for.

Yet that isnt what the rule states. The rule states they ARE locked. Not, they ARE locked only when you check to see if this condition is true

You have provided literally no rules to support your assertion that they ARE locked only when checked, despite being asked.
Page and graph, or concede you have made up that requirement. Reminders (which is all you have provided so far) do not count.

It's super simple, guys. The 6th edition ruleset was written AFTER 8th Fantasy.

The 8th edition Fantasy rules allow to stand and shoot any unit that charges them and it's written pretty damned clearly. If GW really wanted overwatch to work the same way, they would have.

It doesn't. You either get to fire at the first unit that charges you or risk no overwatch should they make since each charge move is resolved one at time versus that of Fantasy which is simultaneously.

Also, this:

Fragile wrote:
A unit is locked in combat when they are in BTB with an enemy model. pg 23

A charge move allows you to move all of the models in the charging unit into BTB with an enemy model. pg 21.

Charges are sequential, not simultaneous as shown by the order on page 20. specifically #5 Declare next charge.

Models locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21.

That is RAW.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So units are not locked when they have one or more models in base contact with an enemy?

The rules disagree.

That's not what I said. Do not misrepresent my position.
Units are locked when you have permission to check if they are locked.

The rules disagree with you.

Units are locked when they have a model in base contact with an enemy. (Page 23 tells us this)

Got anything else because you have shown no rules that agree with your assertation.

You're applying a rule without it being referenced. That's not how the rules actually work. It can't be.
Page 23 defines locked. It does not say that it's a continuous effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule either applies at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy, Or it does not apply at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy

Which is it?

It does not apply at all times.
The restriction applies when it is checked for.

Yet that isnt what the rule states. The rule states they ARE locked. Not, they ARE locked only when you check to see if this condition is true

You have provided literally no rules to support your assertion that they ARE locked only when checked, despite being asked.
Page and graph, or concede you have made up that requirement. Reminders (which is all you have provided so far) do not count.

No, I won't concede. You're asking me to quote something that is a basis of a permissive rule set - that you only apply a rule when it's referenced.

How does the Doom of Malantai allocate wounds?

rigeld2 wrote:


How does the Doom of Malantai allocate wounds?

Anywhere he damn well pleases... from my experience.

Regardless of whether the first model to make contact during a charge locks the unit (I actually believe it DOES lock the unit), the rulebook very clearly and explicitly tells you to move the rest of the charging unit, and gives detailed instructions on how you must do this. This would override any generic rule such as the definition of locked. The only reason this is still an argument is because some people are being intentionally obtuse.