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Looked for FAQs and other threads.
If I take a dedicated transport must I deploy inside it?
Ultimately, can I take a unit of Chaos Terminators, buy a Land Raider as a dedicated transport and deep strike the Terminators anyway? (Deploying an empty LR either as reserve or on the battlefield to start with).

This does seem like a massive liberty, but I can't find a ruling that states I can't do this.

Deploying inside a transport is optional.
If you purchase the DT Raider and opt to not have the Terminators embarked, no unit can start the game embarked in the Raider.

bone idol wrote:
Looked for FAQs and other threads.
If I take a dedicated transport must I deploy inside it?
Ultimately, can I take a unit of Chaos Terminators, buy a Land Raider as a dedicated transport and deep strike the Terminators anyway? (Deploying an empty LR either as reserve or on the battlefield to start with).

This does seem like a massive liberty, but I can't find a ruling that states I can't do this.

Yes you can do this, of course, you can't start another unit in that transport.

Yes, you can buy the Land Raider and then Deep Strike instead.

I do this all the time with my DTs for warriors, keep them out and jam crypteks inside on turn one, sadly they can't start inside but I rarely lose any turn one.

 Beelzaboss wrote:
I do this all the time with my DTs for warriors, keep them out and jam crypteks inside on turn one, sadly they can't start inside but I rarely lose any turn one.

How are you doing this? A unit and it's dedicated transport are one unit for reserve purposes (pg 124). If the unit isn't deployed then it's dedicated transport cannot be on the table, the same for pods as well. If the transport isn't deployed the unit can't be on the table.

They do not have to arrive embarked, but they have to arrive at the same time. Much in the same fashion as an I-guard platoon or combat squad. It seems pretty clear to me.

Where are you getting that rule from?

 grendel083 wrote:
Where are you getting that rule from?

BRB pg 124, reserves.

 Idolator wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Where are you getting that rule from?

BRB pg 124, reserves.

Does not state that a unit and it's purchased DT must be deployed together. If they are (both) in reserves, yes they are considered one unit for reserves purposes (assuming the unit is embarked upon the transport).

This does not require them to be deployed identically. You can absolutely deploy the unit and the transport separately (both on the table, both in reserve with the unit embarked, both in reserve with the unit not embarked, one on the table, one in reserve).

i think he means he deploys the warriors outside the transport, you can do that.

Rorschach9 wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Where are you getting that rule from?

BRB pg 124, reserves.

Does not state that a unit and it's purchased DT must be deployed together. If they are (both) in reserves, yes they are considered one unit for reserves purposes (assuming the unit is embarked upon the transport).

This does not require them to be deployed identically. You can absolutely deploy the unit and the transport separately (both on the table, both in reserve with the unit embarked, both in reserve with the unit not embarked, one on the table, one in reserve).

I vehemently disagree with part of your statement.

Under preparing reserves, a unit and its dedicated transport are considered as ONE UNIT when placing units into reserves and when factoring the 50% maximum. They are a single unit, not two to be deployed separately. You do not have to deploy them embarked in their dedicated transport, however, they do enter play on the same turn as they are considered one unit. Unless there is a different definition of one unit.

Just as a IG platoon is one unit, all squads in that unit must attempt to enter play on the same player turn. (There are several things that throw this for a loop, deep striking platoon mishaps, half of a platoon is embarked on Valks but that is for a different discussion)

Edit. There are no rules for deploying half (or part) of a unit.

 Idolator wrote:
Under preparing reserves, a unit and its dedicated transport are considered as ONE UNIT when placing units into reserves and when factoring the 50% maximum.

Only for the 50% calculation, not and. so I fixed that for you

The part I underlined is correct though.

Compare with IC's in the same section. They manage to count as a unit in their own right for determining the 50%, while coming in with whatever unit they've joined when rolling for reserves. Clearly, these are separate sections describing separate ways of resolving things.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
Under preparing reserves, a unit and its dedicated transport are considered as ONE UNIT when placing units into reserves...

Only for the 50% calculation...

 Idolator wrote:
and when factoring the 50% maximum.

This part is correct though.

Negative.
Here's the RAW.

When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units(rounding up) keeping them as reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.-------

So, the unit and dedicated transport are considered as one unit for keeping in reserve and considered as one unit for the 50% purpose. Any other interpretation is like eating half of a cake and trying to pass the other half off as a whole cake.

 Idolator wrote:
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units(rounding up) keeping them as reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.

"These purposes" clearly refers to the "purposes" mentioned in the previous sentence. Which are specifically "the purposes of working out how many other units may do so [deploy in reserve]."

Nothing in that indicates that the two have to be deployed together, or sets any restrictions on how they are put into reserves. It simply tells you that when you are counting up units to determine how many you can put into reserve, you only count a unit and it's dedicated transport as one.

Exactly what TehCheator said.

". A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes"

For what purposes?

A: "players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units(rounding up) keeping them as reserves to arrive later." (Purpose 1)
"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so" (Purpose 2)

there are no rules that say they must be deployed together.

I disagree.
There are indeed two purposes mentioned that consider them as one (single) unit.
Units must be deployed at the same time. Not necessarily together (which I have not said), just at the same time.

Combat squads aren't deployed together, they must be deployed at the same time however.
IG platoons can't be deployed together, but must be deployed at the same time.

Aaaaand a unit and it's dedicated transport don't have to be deployed together, but they must be deployed at the same time.
One unit for the purpose of choosing reserve units and one unit for determining the 50%.

They are a single unit for all reserve purposes. Of which, there are two.

 Idolator wrote:
Combat squads aren't deployed together, they must be deployed at the same time however.

Where does it say that?
The Combat Squad rules state they're seperate units for all game purposes, including the number of reserve units.
This is done before deployment, so one half of the squad can be deployed, the other half can go in reserve.
Nothing says they must deploy at the same time.

IG platoons can't be deployed together, but must be deployed at the same time.

Only because the Platoon rule says they must. That's a totally unrelated example to use, and has no relevance on Dedicated Transports.

I think you're wrong.
I have warriors that start on the table while a Nightscythe cannot come on til turn 2...
They don't have to start in the night scythe...

 Idolator wrote:
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy up to half of their units(rounding up) keeping them as reserves to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.

There might be an argument saying that "these purposes" (in sentence three) refers to both sentence one and sentence two. However, sentence two says, "the purposes of working out how many other unis may [start in reserve]." So the plural "purposes" in sentence two links quite naturally to the plural "purposes" in sentence three. Thus, as DR already basically said:

"A unit and its dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes, the purposes of working out how many other units may start in reserve."

 grendel083 wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
Combat squads aren't deployed together, they must be deployed at the same time however.

Where does it say that?
The Combat Squad rules state they're seperate units for all game purposes, including the number of reserve units.
This is done before deployment, so one half of the squad can be deployed, the other half can go in reserve.
Nothing says they must deploy at the same time.

IG platoons can't be deployed together, but must be deployed at the same time.

Only because the Platoon rule says they must. That's a totally unrelated example to use, and has no relevance on Dedicated Transports.

the combat squad rule states that they are considered as separate units when the unit is deployed.

The only exception is when the entire ten man unit is embarked in a drop pod.

You can't have half of a unit in reserve. they must be deployed at the same time and then declared as combat squads.
That's page 51 codex space marines.
Edit. To clarify: are you saying that you can split up a single units deployment because it doesn't say anywhere that you can't?

 Idolator wrote:
Units must be deployed at the same time. Not necessarily together (which I have not said), just at the same time.

Citation needed, as there are not any rules I have seen that say this.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
Units must be deployed at the same time. Not necessarily together (which I have not said), just at the same time.

Citation needed, as there are not any rules I have seen that say this.

Rules don't say that you need to breathe either.

I guess, "it doesn't say that I can't" is indeed the argument.

Once again, for reserve purposes ( and only reserve purposes as the rules are clearly written) does a unit and its dedicated transport count as a single unit. Once out of reserve, they can behave independently, just like any other unit/transport. It is only in reserve status that the two are considered as one.

Edit. Heck the first sentence of the next paragraph state that you roll a D6 FOR EACH UNIT held in reserve. There is only one unit to roll for. The unit/dedicated transport. It's one unit!

 Idolator wrote:
the combat squad rule states that they are considered as separate units when the unit is deployed.

That's the old Combat Squad rules. Check the Erratas.
It's now done before deployment.
How could they be counted for reserve if they havn't split yet?

The only exception is when the entire ten man unit is embarked in a drop pod.

You can't have half of a unit in reserve. they must be deployed at the same time and then declared as combat squads.
That's page 51 codex space marines.

All irrelevent as this refers to old rules.

Edit. To clarify: are you saying that you can split up a single units deployment because it doesn't say anywhere that you can't?

Absolutely not! They can be deployed seperately (at different times) because they are in fact now seperate units. Again you'll need to check the current combat squad rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Idolator wrote:
Edit. Heck the first sentence of the next paragraph state that you roll a D6 FOR EACH UNIT held in reserve. There is only one unit to roll for. The unit/dedicated transport. It's one unit!

Only one unit for reserve limits.
Rules elsewhere state very clearly they are two seperate units.

 Idolator wrote:
Under preparing reserves, a unit and its dedicated transport are considered as ONE UNIT when placing units into reserves and when factoring the 50% maximum. They are a single unit, not two to be deployed separately.

There is a huge difference to being considered one unit and to actually being one unit.

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
Units must be deployed at the same time. Not necessarily together (which I have not said), just at the same time.

Citation needed, as there are not any rules I have seen that say this.

Rules don't say that you need to breathe either.

I guess, "it doesn't say that I can't" is indeed the argument.

Are you saying that, because if so then you are 100% incorrect because it is a permissive ruleset.

Once again, for reserve purposes ( and only reserve purposes as the rules are clearly written) does a unit and its dedicated transport count as a single unit. Once out of reserve, they can behave independently, just like any other unit/transport. It is only in reserve status that the two are considered as one.

Edit. Heck the first sentence of the next paragraph state that you roll a D6 FOR EACH UNIT held in reserve. There is only one unit to roll for. The unit/dedicated transport. It's one unit!

Right, for reserve purposes (Holding units in reserve) does a unit and its dedicated transport count as a single unit.

You can deploy the unit and hold the transport in reserve if you so choose. as the FaQ confirms:

"Q: Can you use a Drop Pod on its own, with no squad inside? (p69)
A: Yes you can." (Page 4 SM FaQ)

 grendel083 wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
the combat squad rule states that they are considered as separate units when the unit is deployed.

That's the old Combat Squad rules. Check the Erratas.
It's now done before deployment.
How could they be counted for reserve if they havn't split yet?

The only exception is when the entire ten man unit is embarked in a drop pod.

You can't have half of a unit in reserve. they must be deployed at the same time and then declared as combat squads.
That's page 51 codex space marines.

All irrelevent as this refers to old rules.

Edit. To clarify: are you saying that you can split up a single units deployment because it doesn't say anywhere that you can't?

Absolutely not! They can be deployed seperately (at different times) because they are in fact now seperate units. Again you'll need to check the current combat squad rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Idolator wrote:
Edit. Heck the first sentence of the next paragraph state that you roll a D6 FOR EACH UNIT held in reserve. There is only one unit to roll for. The unit/dedicated transport. It's one unit!

Only one unit for reserve limits.
Rules elsewhere state very clearly they are two seperate units.

Your right, didn't realize that was changed. Haven't played with or against marines in awhile. My bad.

It's not just for reserve limits. It's for reserves as a whole. I'm not going to quote the whole rule again, but the stipulation for unit/ dedicated transports applies to both preceding sentences, not just the one that someone may want it to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
Units must be deployed at the same time. Not necessarily together (which I have not said), just at the same time.

Citation needed, as there are not any rules I have seen that say this.

Rules don't say that you need to breathe either.

I guess, "it doesn't say that I can't" is indeed the argument.

Are you saying that, because if so then you are 100% incorrect because it is a permissive ruleset.

Once again, for reserve purposes ( and only reserve purposes as the rules are clearly written) does a unit and its dedicated transport count as a single unit. Once out of reserve, they can behave independently, just like any other unit/transport. It is only in reserve status that the two are considered as one.

Edit. Heck the first sentence of the next paragraph state that you roll a D6 FOR EACH UNIT held in reserve. There is only one unit to roll for. The unit/dedicated transport. It's one unit!

Right, for reserve purposes (Holding units in reserve) does a unit and its dedicated transport count as a single unit.

You can deploy the unit and hold the transport in reserve if you so choose. as the FaQ confirms:

"Q: Can you use a Drop Pod on its own, with no squad inside? (p69)
A: Yes you can." (Page 4 SM FaQ)

Yes, you can use a drop pod with no troops inside, they can come on from the table edge when the reserve roll is made for the squad/pod. Changes nothing from what I've said. Same exact thing.

They can also be deployed whilst their transport is in reserve.