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I was wondering what is the general consensus regarding eldrad use in eldar armies?

I have used him a couple of times since the new codex dropped.

Two farseers is more efficient in my limited experience (and more flexible).

(I just realised Dakka recognised my IP while abroad and changed the flag accordingly!)

Eldrad has most certainly lost his throne since his previous form. I would say that his downfall falls to two reasons:

1) His loss of guaranteed powers. Whilst this affects every one of our psykers, it hits Eldrad harder because, functionally, ML3 is so good that ML4 really isn't THAT much of a boon.

2) His loss of his ability to cast the same power twice. Double fortune was really what kept Eldar in the game last edition and now without this ability Eldrad really doesn't justify his points-cost.

There are some other issues with him, mainly that he needs a transport to be mobile, but his casting ability is severely hampered whilst inside his transport (something which affects all foot-psykers). In all honesty, a Laughing Seer on a Jetbike surpasses him in almost every way.

Iranna.

Iranna mostly nailed it.

Not being able to cast two powers, not being able to get fortune 100% of the time... he's just not that much better than a regular seer.

It might occur to some that taking him is best at high levels, but north of 2000 points, you usually have enough FoC HQ slots that you can take two seers and get 6 casts a turn for the same price as eldrad's 4.

You're paying 100 pts for the ability to reploy only if you go 1st (and some other fairly minor not-worth-it abilities).. Unfortunately I've learned that farseers in transports are worthless and Eldrad has no jetbike option... so that leaves him on a shelf pretty much.

I'll always take two seers, especially because they can go on jetbikes.

Agreed with everything stated above.

 shamikebab wrote:
I'll always take two seers, especially because they can go on jetbikes.

I prefer Wraithguard as troops, so my list will always see a Laughing JetSeer and a Spiritseer. I also think that having 2 Farseers seems redundant as I'm almost always just looking to have Guide + Prescience. Anything else after that isn't really that important to me.

Iranna.

He is very strong, and you get an incredible amount of value over a single seer for the extra points.

This thread is a good example of why you shouldn't necessarily follow 'concensus' if you want to be a strong competitive player.

Also look around and you'll find 'consensus' that Wraithknights aren't good. That Fire Prisms ARE good. Fire Dragons are too expensive. The list goes on.

Take what you read in tactics with a grain of salt, it's a good to get an idea of what way the wind is blowing, but there are a lot of players in here ready to dispense bad advice.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
He is very strong, and you get an incredible amount of value over a single seer for the extra points.

This thread is a good example of why you shouldn't necessarily follow 'concensus' if you want to be a strong competitive player.

Also look around and you'll find 'consensus' that Wraithknights aren't good. That Fire Prisms ARE good. Fire Dragons are too expensive. The list goes on.

Take what you read in tactics with a grain of salt, it's a good to get an idea of what way the wind is blowing, but there are a lot of players in here ready to dispense bad advice.

Please, do elaborate.

Are you suggesting that 1 extra psychic power, a force weapon, the Spirit-link special rule and the ability to redeploy D3 units is worth 105pts over a generic seer?

Please explain how these benefits make up for his poor-mobility (in an edition where mobility is king)?

Furthermore, no one has stated that Eldrad is bad, we have merely advised that there are more efficient means of utilising psychic powers in the Eldar army.

Instead of spouting such 'hipster' hyperbole, please, back-up your so-far baseless assertions.

Iranna.

Eldrad does have quite a few things going for him over a regular farseer. If you want to build a list around rushing your models up to the enemy as quickly as possible to get that 3+ cover save on your Wave Serpents, Eldrad being your Warlord can increase that save to a 2+. If you want to have Eldrad in a close combat unit, his ability to use his Force Weapon to kill off non Eternal Warriors is wonderful. And even though you don't get Fortune 100%of the time with him, you certainly do get it more of the time.

Eldrad isn't an auto include anymore and that is a good thing because nothing in any army should be. But don't discount what he can do just because you think running something cheaper is a good idea. What he brings to the table is still very formidable as he is the only Farseer that has a 3+ invul save.

I personally use him still and I don't ever regret it because he is still just as much of a pain for the enemy to try to get rid of as he ever was. People really hate that guy, even now.

it really is too bad they changed RoW though

Eldrad is still good and a viable addition to any list but, I'll summarize in my not-so-humble opinion, including Iranna's good points:

1. Random powers (affects all psykers however).
2. Farseers are now ML3 for effectively 50 points cheaper.
3. Those 50 points can be spent to get a jetbike, guarantee Fearless on a squad or, a few other things.
4. Doesn't matter which psyker it is, if you shove him in an Artillery squad, they're T7.
5. Loss of board-wide anti-psyker ability but, we all knew that was coming.
6. Many of the BRB warlord traits are more useful to me than Eldrad's fixed trait

What is still good about Eldrad is:

1. Instant Killed by somewhat fewer weapons.
2. That redeploy ability of his is still pretty useful.
3. Possibly gaining a warp charge back to spend on Ghosthelms is useful.
4. Better save...for what it's worth

As a result, I now usually field 2 Farseers to save points. Of course, Eldrad AND a 2nd Farseer can cause an enemy to work a lot harder

deathmagiks wrote:
it really is too bad they changed RoW though

Runes of Warding really needed to be changed though. If they were still around in their previous incarnation, I think Eldar would be indisputably the best army going. So many armies now rely on Psychic Powers as their force multipliers that the only top-tier armies that would really go unhampered by RoW would be the Necrons and the Tau.

Iranna.

Eldrad is useful for allied contingents because of the higher ML and ability to roll more times for the most useful powers (Fortune, Misfortune, Doom, Hallucinate, etc).

But Eldrad wasn't the only Farseer who could or can get RoW so it really isn't a mark against Eldrad. Its a mark against every farseer, Eldrad included.

What swings me taking Eldrad most of the time over a single Farseer is that I usually like to use Telepathy powers more than most of the other powers because they really help you to control the board more. With Eldrad, he is the only Farseer that can cast Invisibility and Hallucination in the same turn without losing his Invulnerable save. Both of those spells are incredibly dangerous to most opponents if you put them on the right units.

If I take another Farseer I don't necessarily want him to have to stick around Eldrad to cast that second spell, so Eldrads ability to cast 2 Warp Charge 2 powers in a turn is great.

Also, he has a very nasty reputation so people will often gun for him. If you are clever you can use that to your advantage by moving Eldrad to a position where people will overextend their army to get to him, leaving themselves open for you to exploit their tacticle blunder. You wouldn't think a good player will do such an obviously poor decision but Eldrad instills such hatred in some people that they lose all sense of reason and gun for him. Especially if he is doing things like taking over their vehicles or making units stand around during a fight, or worse, making them hit themselves.

No I was just saying I wish we still had it. Granted it's OP as hell, but I was hoping, maybe, they could have changed it to like... I dunno, +1 leadership or something. Nah that's OP too.

As a side note, $%*$ LD8 Warlocks. That's a lie! LIE!

Above all else losing the double cast is what really hurt eldrad. It made him unique. I could take double fortune eldrad even if it used all 4 warp charges and left none for canceling perils. But only 1 cast means hes no better than a farseer. With denying, doom is also that much less likely to go off. A double cast on doom was a pretty sure way to get it off even through psychic defense.

People are missing the huge plus with eldrad. 85% chance to get an individual power vs 66% farseer if you roll all on one table (since you roll 1 by 1, you can stop and roll on another if you find the power you want).

Getting eye on distant events is a nice plus. Probably the best warlord trait to get, especially in a mech force.

Overall id give eldrad a 7/10. Double cast would have kept him at 10/10, but as he is he is just a slightly more reliable farseer for double the points. His little quirks arent distinguished enough to make him great.

Edit: RoW got nerfed way too hard. Should have been a 12" bubble of 3d6 kind of like shadow in the warp.

Zephoid is right about the big bonus being that Eldrad can give you a much better chance of rolling a specific power. This can be HUGE as the 3 tables he can choose from are literally a toolbox..

Are you facing Screamer deathstar with 2++? Or Fortune'd Jetbikes? Go all out for Misfortune.

Facing Daemons? Try to grab Dominate/Hallucinate.

Facing an army without ignores cover? Hi Invisibility!

That has been my biggest reason for taking Eldrad along with my Tau primary. He gives me a very good chance at having a viable counter to some of the dirtier tricks that now exist in 40k.

 zephoid wrote:


People are missing the huge plus with eldrad. 85% chance to get an individual power vs 66% farseer if you roll all on one table (since you roll 1 by 1, you can stop and roll on another if you find the power you want).

Perhaps I'm mistaken because I really am terrible at maths, but wouldn't a Farseer with 3 powers have a 50% of getting Fortune (for argument's sake) and Eldrad a 66% chance?

My line of thinking being 3/6 = 1/2 = 50% for Farseer and 4/6 = 2/3 = 66% for Eldrad...

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:

 zephoid wrote:


People are missing the huge plus with eldrad. 85% chance to get an individual power vs 66% farseer if you roll all on one table (since you roll 1 by 1, you can stop and roll on another if you find the power you want).

Perhaps I'm mistaken because I really am terrible at maths, but wouldn't a Farseer with 3 powers have a 50% of getting Fortune (for argument's sake) and Eldrad a 66% chance?

My line of thinking being 3/6 = 1/2 = 50% for Farseer and 4/6 = 2/3 = 66% for Eldrad...

Iranna.

You are right.

While I agree that 2 Farseers > Eldrad, I'm not entirely sure that 1 Farseer + 105 points of other stuff > Eldrad. If i had to put points on the extra stuff it'd be something like:

Runes = 15p (would never pay the 25p they normally cost, but do feel they are worth 15)
Staff = 25p (15 for the spirit link and 10 for ap3/force)
Thougnnes 4 & Inv 3+ = 15p (yes the jetbike is better, but if I'm footslogging anyhow 15 points is worth it)
Redeploy = 30p (I may be over costing this one, but I really really like using it )
Mastery 4 = 20p (while + 1 mastery does cost 35p in the DA codex, I don't feel it's worth it, since I've usually used up both prescience and guide at this point, so it's a random power with no backup)
Warlord trait = 5p (I like knowing what I'm gonna get, So while it's not the greatest at least It's not hopeless either. )

This comes out at 110p, which I feel is a fair deal assuming I have a list that uses every single one of the items. Like footslogging Wraith guard.

Actually, its a bit more complicated than that as well, but you are closer than Zephoid. Irregardless, the point stands that Eldrad gives a nice increase in probability of getting a specific power you need.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lilrys wrote:
While I agree that 2 Farseers > Eldrad, I'm not entirely sure that 1 Farseer + 105 points of other stuff > Eldrad. If i had to put points on the extra stuff it'd be something like:

Runes = 15p (would never pay the 25p they normally cost, but do feel they are worth 15)
Staff = 25p (15 for the spirit link and 10 for ap3/force)
Thougnnes 4 & Inv 3+ = 15p (yes the jetbike is better, but if I'm footslogging anyhow 15 points is worth it)
Redeploy = 30p (I may be over costing this one, but I really really like using it )
Mastery 4 = 20p (while + 1 mastery does cost 35p in the DA codex, I don't feel it's worth it, since I've usually used up both prescience and guide at this point, so it's a random power with no backup)
Warlord trait = 5p (I like knowing what I'm gonna get, So while it's not the greatest at least It's not hopeless either. )

This comes out at 110p, which I feel is a fair deal assuming I have a list that uses every single one of the items. Like footslogging Wraith guard.

I like Eldrad, both from an in-game POV and a fluff/story/modelling POV. What I will say is that if you run Eldar primary, 2 Jetseers will almost always be a better use of points. Eldrad is more points inefficient than a Jetseer, he trades flexibility for efficiency.

Nope, because you have rerolls on powers you already have. You get 50% or 66% of the powers at the end, but the chance of obtaining a specific power increases with each roll on the same table. Say you roll all 4 on the table. By the 4th roll, half the table is invalid. You only have 1/3 of the table being valid rolls. If you are looking for any of 2 or 3 powers though, thats when this gets really complicated. However, looking for only fortune (as an example) is 1/6+1/5+1/4+1/3 chance over 4 rolls.

deathmagiks wrote:
it really is too bad they changed RoW though

No, it's too bad they had 4th edition RoW for so long. Feth that mechanic. I can't wait till the Tyranids lose it.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
He is very strong, and you get an incredible amount of value over a single seer for the extra points.

This thread is a good example of why you shouldn't necessarily follow 'concensus' if you want to be a strong competitive player.

Also look around and you'll find 'consensus' that Wraithknights aren't good. That Fire Prisms ARE good. Fire Dragons are too expensive. The list goes on.

Take what you read in tactics with a grain of salt, it's a good to get an idea of what way the wind is blowing, but there are a lot of players in here ready to dispense bad advice.

Totally agree with this post.. Too many people on dakka have played 2-3 games and think they're veterans..
As he said take all advice with grain of salt here on dakka (both tactics and YMDC escpecially)..
However in the end Irrana is correct aswell there are BETTER choices than Eldrad.. Doesn't make him a bad choice at all, just means his current incarnation doesn't fit into ALL eldar lists well..

First off I am seeing alot of people with totally wrong chances of getting a power on a psychic table. A ML 3 has a 50% chance to get a single power off of a 6 power table (ie 1-5/6*4/5*3/4) and a ML 4 has a 66% chance to get any single power (ie 1-5/6*4/5*3/4*2/3). The funny thing is you can actually change the generation method to make it faster without affecting the probabilities at all. It would take thought though so people just reroll until they get something.

Now that we know that we can see that 2 ML3 psykers have a better chance to get a single power off of a table than eldrad (ie 75% chance). This for an equal price, more wounds, more warp charges (6 vs 4), and access to wargear and artifacts some of these are just incredible (mantle, jetbike, wraithforge stone, spirit stones, etc.).

I still like eldrad for his guaranteed warlord trait. Which is very good for wraithscythe in serpent lists and in fact any list that wants to deliver its payload as the primary method of killing things. Unfortunately WS are amazing gunboats and their contents are pretty anemic these days in many lists so this ability is limited.

His 3++ is very nice but without guaranteed access to fortune tanking with such an expensive model. Additionally his T is the same as a jetbike seer so that is not a huge bonus.

I like his ability to reposition units as repositioning 1-3 WS in a game can change that game completely. WS lists really want to go first due to jink/holofields only working after movement so getting an additional benefit is nice.

Sticking him into a Vaul Support battery is very nice. He is great for an allied detachment or spiritseer wraith army as he gives you more condensed bang for your HQ slot. He is not pts efficient however.

On a related note I think this is because he is forced to take the horribly over priced RoW. If he was even 30 pts cheaper he would be a deal.

 Iranna wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
He is very strong, and you get an incredible amount of value over a single seer for the extra points.

This thread is a good example of why you shouldn't necessarily follow 'concensus' if you want to be a strong competitive player.

Also look around and you'll find 'consensus' that Wraithknights aren't good. That Fire Prisms ARE good. Fire Dragons are too expensive. The list goes on.

Take what you read in tactics with a grain of salt, it's a good to get an idea of what way the wind is blowing, but there are a lot of players in here ready to dispense bad advice.

stuff.

Instead of spouting such 'hipster' hyperbole, please, back-up your so-far baseless assertions.

Iranna.

Oh? Like all the quality back up and analysis you gave in this thread? Sure. It's coming, I wanted to get some breakfast first.

Are you suggesting that 1 extra psychic power, a force weapon, the Spirit-link special rule and the ability to redeploy D3 units is worth 105pts over a generic seer?

All that and the AP3 to go with Fleshbane and Force, and the Stealth trait, and the T4/3++ (Without having to be stuck on a Jetbike), and the Runes of Warding, and the Runes of Witnessing? Yes, Yes I am telling you all of that is worth only 105 points.

Please explain how these benefits make up for his poor-mobility (in an edition where mobility is king)?

If only there was some vehicle that could move him across the table up to 30" in a turn, was AV12 with 3 Hull points, can reduce PenHits to glance on a 2+, and get up to a 2+ cover save to assist with his 'poor mobility'. Why doesn't the codex have one of those?
You know what else would be great for mobility? Some sort of extra rerollable D6 ignores terrain movement. It would be just so Eldar.

Furthermore, no one has stated that Eldrad is bad, we have merely advised that there are more efficient means of utilising psychic powers in the Eldar army.

Please, do elaborate.

Anyhow, good to see some others have come out on the right side.

There are some valuable things that make Eldrad an asset in the competitive scene over your bog standard Farseer.

First is he guarantees you get the best trait off the Eldar table. Sure, some armies can get around cover saves, plenty can't. It's certainly handy to be 1 up on whatever your Wave Serpent save would be otherwise when facing off against a Bakery for example.
Second is he has the AP3 and Force, making him a threat factor against non IA MC's in combat. Helpful vs Daemons.
Third, he can roll four powers on one table over three, this significantly improves your ability to draw counter-powers to what's across the table, and use them. Of course, if you lack the strategic/analytical brainpower to get the most of out anything other than reroll hit/reroll hit, you won't see much value here. That's not a failing of Eldrad. On top of that, he just makes some powers flat-out good over bad, like Precognition.
-What are some examples of game turning powers made good by matchup? Ignores Cover vs Farsight/SS Bomb, Scrier's Gaze for timing Warp Spiders/Hunters table entry vs fliers, Misfortune v save rerollers, Terrify v Fearless tarpitters/Necron Wraiths.
-What's the problem with taking two Farseers? Doubleups. Divination powers don't stack. Also, you can't take a Spiritseer should you want to. What are a few problems with a Farseer on a Jetbike? Getting shot off the table by an Alphastrike for one, another is he sucks with (great tree btw) Divination, Forboding and Perfectiming on Bikes is distinctly underwhelming.
Fourth, that re-deploy IS really good.
Fifth, the runes do actually get used, it's not like you're saddled with useless bloat by taking him over a normal seer.

That's enough for one post.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Strayan wrote:


Totally agree with this post.. Too many people on dakka have played 2-3 games and think they're veterans..
As he said take all advice with grain of salt here on dakka (both tactics and YMDC escpecially)..
However in the end Irrana is correct aswell there are BETTER choices than Eldrad.. Doesn't make him a bad choice at all, just means his current incarnation doesn't fit into ALL eldar lists well..

You are 100% right in that his current incarnation doesn't fit into ALL Eldar lists well. Some lists there isn't a point in taking Eldrad. Some lists don't have a point a Jetbike seer either. Synergy is key in this codex, it's got the tools to go out and create problems for some of the top meta armies, and I like that.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:



All that and the AP3 to go with Fleshbane and Force, and the Stealth trait, and the T4/3++ (Without having to be stuck on a Jetbike), and the Runes of Warding, and the Runes of Witnessing? Yes, Yes I am telling you all of that is worth only 105 points.

So what you're saying is, you want to pay 105 points to:
A) Make a support caster slightly better in melee, somewhere which he really doesn't wish to be in the first place.
B) Have a trait which forces you to castle up your units to make full use of it.
C) Have things which any normal seer can get access to?

If only there was some vehicle that could move him across the table up to 30" in a turn, was AV12 with 3 Hull points, can reduce PenHits to glance on a 2+, and get up to a 2+ cover save to assist with his 'poor mobility'. Why doesn't the codex have one of those?
You know what else would be great for mobility? Some sort of extra rerollable D6 ignores terrain movement. It would be just so Eldar.

So your suggesting that one puts Eldrad in a Wave Serpent? The thing which stops all of his ML4 glory from affecting anything other than his own transport and unit inside said transport. By doing so, Eldrad will be unable to assist the rest of your army until turn 3 due to the rules regarding Blessings and Maledictions:

Turn 1 - Cast limited psychic powers ->"Drive".

Turn 2 - Cast limited psychic powers -> "Get out".

Turn 3 - You are now free to buff the army.

I didn't realise you liked to invest 200+pts for a character who will only be buffing a fraction of your army for half of the game.

There are some valuable things that make Eldrad an asset in the competitive scene over your bog standard Farseer.

First is he guarantees you get the best trait off the Eldar table. Sure, some armies can get around cover saves, plenty can't. It's certainly handy to be 1 up on whatever your Wave Serpent save would be otherwise when facing off against a Bakery for example.

Second is he has the AP3 and Force, making him a threat factor against non IA MC's in combat. Helpful vs Daemons.

Third, he can roll four powers on one table over three, this significantly improves your ability to draw counter-powers to what's across the table, and use them. Of course, if you lack the strategic/analytical brainpower to get the most of out anything other than reroll hit/reroll hit, you won't see much value here. That's not a failing of Eldrad. On top of that, he just makes some powers flat-out good over bad, like Precognition.

-What are some examples of game turning powers made good by matchup? Ignores Cover vs Farsight/SS Bomb, Scrier's Gaze for timing Warp Spiders/Hunters table entry vs fliers, Misfortune v save rerollers, Terrify v Fearless tarpitters/Necron Wraiths.

-What's the problem with taking two Farseers? Doubleups. Divination powers don't stack. Also, you can't take a Spiritseer should you want to. What are a few problems with a Farseer on a Jetbike? Getting shot off the table by an Alphastrike for one, another is he sucks with (great tree btw) Divination, Forboding and Perfectiming on Bikes is distinctly underwhelming.

Fourth, that re-deploy IS really good.

Fifth, the runes do actually get used, it's not like you're saddled with useless bloat by taking him over a normal seer.

That's enough for one post.

1) The Eldar Warlord Traits are sub-par at best and yes, whilst Eldrad may come with the best of the bunch there's plenty in a standard competitive scene that will just simply ignore a 2+ cover, especially when you want to Turbo-boost Eldrad right in their face:

-Heldrake: Vector Strike.

-Codex Tau: Ooodles upon oodles of Ignores Cover in this book.

-Other Wave Serpents: Pretty self-explanatory.

- Necron Wraithwing: One charge equals a dead Wave Serpent.

- IG Hydras: 2+ cover is nothing when you don't get it.

- Ignores Cover Horror blob: So many S6 shots that your Serpent Shield is literally nothing to them.

The list goes on. Every army that 6th edition has churned out has an answer to Cover Saves and subsequently, Wave Serpents. This trend will only continue.

2) And what armies will typically be running a MC-heavy list? Tyranids and Daemons spring to mind.

If facing Tyranids, the Swarmlord alone has a very high chance of rolling IA, not to mention any other lvl 3 Tervigons floating around.

If Eldrad gets into combat with a beastie from the Daemons codex you can be pretty much assured he'll lose that combat. Especially considering that it's quite easy for a Lord of Chance to get a 2++ re-rollable save. That'll beat a Fortuned 3++ anyday I'm afraid.

3) If you're suggesting that one who decides not to risk not getting a particular power they need and instead rely on the Primaris Powers - which they are guaranteed - " lack the strategic/analytical brainpower" of those who do then I'm afraid you know very little about this game. The more dice rolls one can avoid making, the more one can control the game. By designing a list reliant upon psychic powers you are guaranteed to get you can't be caught out when you don't get the powers you need.

Also, I don't know what Jetseers you've seen, but my Farseer will always have a 2+ re-rollable cover save regardless of whether I go first or not. Even with her base partially in area terrain, my Farseer is practically immune to anything but Ignores Cover weaponry thanks to the Mantle. She can also buff the rest of the army whilst retaining mobility without the need to sacrifice one for the other.

4) No arguments here.

5) Sure you can get use out of the Runes, but a lot of the time they're redundant (more so Witnessing rather than Warding). Most of the time, a normal Farseer will be denying on a 4+ anyway and she only has a 1/18 chance of failing a psychic test per game. That's approximately 1 every 6 turns. Those 25pts could always go somewhere else.


By no means am I trying to "talk down" Eldrad. He is a good HQ. I just don't believe he justifies his points cost over a regular Farseer. In fact, the only time I can think of where I'd pick Eldrad over a regular Farseer is in a FootDar list.

Iranna.

 Iranna wrote:
the only time I can think of where I'd pick Eldrad over a regular Farseer is in a FootDar list.

Iranna.

I'll throw my 2 cents in. I agree that eldrad is not what he used to be, and that 2 seers can work better, particularly on jetbikes. He adds some unique boosts that other seers don't have, but they just don't outweigh all of that mass psychic goodness. I agree with Iranna; I would only take Eldrad in a larger point foot list where I have a second(non farseer) HQ and I need the farseer support. But ever since the random table appeared and runes of warding lost their status as completely and utterly broken, I have largely put my farseers away for other HQ choices.