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Sorry - should have mentioned Jaws lists the unit types it can hit in its entry. MC is in there but FMC is not.

rigeld2 wrote:
Thanks for pointing that out - I'd missed it.

That's why I hate FAQ's; The first thing I do in threads like this is pick up the BRB.
I only think about checking the FAQ after like half an hour -_-'

Do swooping FMCs get 5+ cover in area terrain?
Swooping or Gliding for that matter. RAW they should both get it. They don't need to dive to get the jink save if they end their movement in Area Terrain.

RAW FMCs are considered MCs with the following exceptions (listed in the BRB). Wouldn't that categorize them with any other model with a base (short of vehicles/flying vehicles), as in if they have their base in the area terrain, they get the 5+ cover?

Yes, FMCs in area terrain get a 5+ cover save and don't need to Dive.

Splitting hairs again.

Fmc swooping no strafing run since strafing is not using sky fire.

Fmc / mc gliding or walking you can use the strafing run.

As for assault and grenades. Well if you have assaulted it and its a mon creature you can use them.

The +1 bs applied by strafing run does not apply to FMCs because it only applies to the unit types listed in the rule. FMC isn't one of them, doesn't matter if it's gliding or swooping.

Strafing run is pinning to all unit types.

As for the grenades, I would suggest reading the whole thread

Saythings wrote:RAW FMCs are considered MCs with the following exceptions (listed in the BRB).

Lungpickle wrote:Fmc / mc gliding or walking you can use the strafing run.

I specifically looked for FMCs being considered MCs, and couldn't find anything. In fact, if this were the case there would be a lot of redundant repetition in the FMC rules (like Fear, Hammer of Wrath, Relentless) so I believe their being separate unit types is intentional. It also ties in with Jump and Jetpack units now being their own type rather than an Infantry sub-type.

If I'm wrong on this, please show me exactly where. Otherwise, Strafing Run gives no benefit against FMCs - swooping, gliding or otherwise.

 Super Ready wrote:
It also ties in with Jump and Jetpack units now being their own type rather than an Infantry sub-type.

Uh, that happened the other way around. Jump and Jet used to be their own type, but now are subtypes associated with infantry or other types. For instance, there are now Jet Pack Cavalry (Plague Drones of Nurgle).

You will not find a clear sentence that says that a FMC is a MC. But in just about all cases you will find. FMCs = MCs for any of these rules questions. The only clear separation involving rules is whether the FMC is gliding or swooping.

The Flying (in FMC) is simply an adjective to describe the MC. Otherwise you start to break RAW apart. A Hive Tyrant buys a wing biomorph and loses MC status. Therefore no longer has relentless, smash, firing two weapons etc.. Demon princes.. etc.

Fragile wrote:
You will not find a clear sentence that says that a FMC is a MC. But in just about all cases you will find. FMCs = MCs for any of these rules questions. The only clear separation involving rules is whether the FMC is gliding or swooping.

The Flying (in FMC) is simply an adjective to describe the MC. Otherwise you start to break RAW apart. A Hive Tyrant buys a wing biomorph and loses MC status. Therefore no longer has relentless, smash, firing two weapons etc.. Demon princes.. etc.

Except for the fact that FMCs have a unit entry with this little section called "Special Rules". Guess what's listed under that section?

For whatever it's worth, the monster hunter USR specifies that it affects both. Who would it if they were the same?

Fragile wrote:
But in just about all cases you will find. FMCs = MCs for any of these rules questions.

Except for Strafing Run... and grenades, prior to the FAQ... and JotWW... do please have a read through the whole thread. This is already well debunked, there is a definite difference.

 Super Ready wrote:

Fragile wrote:
But in just about all cases you will find. FMCs = MCs for any of these rules questions.

Except for Strafing Run... and grenades, prior to the FAQ... and JotWW... do please have a read through the whole thread. This is already well debunked, there is a definite difference.

Perhaps you should read through the FAQs before making such statements. It would have prevented your grenade mistake and JotWW is clearly addressed in those.

Fragile wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

Fragile wrote:
But in just about all cases you will find. FMCs = MCs for any of these rules questions.

Except for Strafing Run... and grenades, prior to the FAQ... and JotWW... do please have a read through the whole thread. This is already well debunked, there is a definite difference.

Perhaps you should read through the FAQs before making such statements. It would have prevented your grenade mistake and JotWW is clearly addressed in those.

I can't see anything in FAQs about JotWW and FMC's. Jetbikes, width, cover saves and targetting are addressed, but not FMC's?

I DID make a mistake on grenades, true. But it doesn't change this - FMC and MC are separate unit types, and there are cases where it matters.

Fragile wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

Fragile wrote:
But in just about all cases you will find. FMCs = MCs for any of these rules questions.

Except for Strafing Run... and grenades, prior to the FAQ... and JotWW... do please have a read through the whole thread. This is already well debunked, there is a definite difference.

Perhaps you should read through the FAQs before making such statements. It would have prevented your grenade mistake and JotWW is clearly addressed in those.

Please find where JotWW has been FAQd to work against FMC. I'm work blocked, but assume you can quote it here?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

Fragile wrote:
But in just about all cases you will find. FMCs = MCs for any of these rules questions.

Except for Strafing Run... and grenades, prior to the FAQ... and JotWW... do please have a read through the whole thread. This is already well debunked, there is a definite difference.

Perhaps you should read through the FAQs before making such statements. It would have prevented your grenade mistake and JotWW is clearly addressed in those.

Please find where JotWW has been FAQd to work against FMC. I'm work blocked, but assume you can quote it here?

The FAQ makes it clear that it doesnt work vs a "Swooping" FMC.

:edit::

Fragile wrote:
What USR does a Demon Prince with Daemonic Flight have ? Or a Hive Tyrant with Wings?

You should look at page 49 in the bottom right corner.

Indeed, strange how the obvious can be overlooked. I rescind that question.

::Actually I can see how this debate will go, so I rescind all the above questions.::

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

Fragile wrote:
But in just about all cases you will find. FMCs = MCs for any of these rules questions.

Except for Strafing Run... and grenades, prior to the FAQ... and JotWW... do please have a read through the whole thread. This is already well debunked, there is a definite difference.

Perhaps you should read through the FAQs before making such statements. It would have prevented your grenade mistake and JotWW is clearly addressed in those.

Please find where JotWW has been FAQd to work against FMC. I'm work blocked, but assume you can quote it here?

The FAQ makes it clear that it doesnt work vs a "Swooping" FMC.

Now, for anyone, some questions.

What USR does a Demon Prince with Daemonic Flight have ? Or a Hive Tyrant with Wings?

Can you show any rule that states that affects a MCs and not FMCs, that doesnt preclude Jump units? (Please note the difference between a Swooping FMC and a FMC, as one is clearly referencing the HtH rule.)

Frigile, I think you are referring to this FAQ

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

which is fine, but what I am talking about is in the Space Wolf codex, under the entry for JotWW...

...Rune Priest may trace a straight line along the board, starting from the Rune Priest and ending 24'' away. This line may pass through terrain, Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry ....

Which are unit types, FMC is not mentioned in there.

Which did not exist when that codex was written, however with the change in format, JotWW now affects more than it originally.

Fragile wrote:
Which did not exist when that codex was written, however with the change in format, JotWW now affects more than it originally.

And would require an FAQ/Errata to change.

MCs and FMCs are explicitly different types.

Fragile wrote:
Which did not exist when that codex was written, however with the change in format, JotWW now affects more than it originally.

So, again - where in the SW FAQ does it state how FMC are or are not affected?

Explicitly in the codex they are NOT affected as the list is exhaustive. Prove otherwise

No FMC's do not equal MC's. They share traits and even resemble each other in many ways, but they are not the same. Just like Super Mario is not a super hero like Superman, just because his game has Super in the title. Neither is he like Batman just because batman has no real powers like Mario. Mario wears a squirrel suit and can fly for a limited time. It does not make him Batmans equal.

For now JotWW cannot hit FMC's. Just like the Death Ray on the Necron Doom Scythe, it has to be specifically FAQ'ed or errata'ed.

It would, in my opinion, make sense that it could hit hovering flyers and gliding FMC's, just like the Death Ray on the Doom Scythe. I would play it that way if I faced a Space Wolves player.

Hovering flyers, are they not treated like skimmers?. Regardless jaws does not affect vehicles but pretty sure the death ray would hit a hovering flyer.

MarkyMark wrote:
Hovering flyers, are they not treated like skimmers?. Regardless jaws does not affect vehicles but pretty sure the death ray would hit a hovering flyer.

That is different. A Hovering Flyer is treated exactly as a Fast Skimmer. A Gliding FMC is treated as a Jump MC for three specific purposes - movement.

 Happyjew wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:
Hovering flyers, are they not treated like skimmers?. Regardless jaws does not affect vehicles but pretty sure the death ray would hit a hovering flyer.

That is different. A Hovering Flyer is treated exactly as a Fast Skimmer. A Gliding FMC is treated as a Jump MC for three specific purposes - movement.

No gak, I was replying to the dude above

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Which did not exist when that codex was written, however with the change in format, JotWW now affects more than it originally.

So, again - where in the SW FAQ does it state how FMC are or are not affected?

Explicitly in the codex they are NOT affected as the list is exhaustive. Prove otherwise

I think that line is more to do with the fact that until 6th rolled around you couldn't jaws jump and jet infantry.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I think that line is more to do with the fact that until 6th rolled around you couldn't jaws jump and jet infantry.

Perhaps... but the FAQ has been updated since the change to 6th, and wasn't updated to include FMCs, whereas the Necron Death Ray was. That's a very definite difference so regardless of RAI, the RAW is clear.

 Super Ready wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I think that line is more to do with the fact that until 6th rolled around you couldn't jaws jump and jet infantry.

Perhaps... but the FAQ has been updated since the change to 6th, and wasn't updated to include FMCs, whereas the Necron Death Ray was. That's a very definite difference so regardless of RAI, the RAW is clear.

I wasn't saying that Jaws hit FMCs just that the quote might not have been about that at all.