Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I agree that it shouldn't be. They come as-standard on a lot of shooting-orientated units that don't need them, for free! Nids generally need an Initiative bonus. An MC or psychic power that was capable of acting something like a Dirge Caster would be amazing.
I agree that it shouldn't be. They come as-standard on a lot of shooting-orientated units that don't need them, for free! Nids generally need an Initiative bonus. An MC or psychic power that was capable of acting something like a Dirge Caster would be amazing.
Personally, I would love to see Psychic screech (or whatever that old 4th Edition Zoey power was) return as a Malediction. "Range of 24": The target unit suffers -1 to their Leadership and Initiative. In addition, they are automatically pinned". I mean, thats really not broken. It just makes charging a unit a lot easier, but doesn't cause any wounds. I'm also REALLY hoping to see Onslaught become the Primaris, with the addition that a unit can shoot OR charge after running... it makes sense to me...
Altered FOC to help counter the lack of Allies. 3 HQ, 4 Elite, 6 Troop, 4 Fast, 4Heavy. Purchasing the 3rd HQ choice unlocks the extra Elite, Fast, and Heavy slots.
That's an interesting idea. Wonder if they'll start doing that to other armies.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Altered FOC to help counter the lack of Allies. 3 HQ, 4 Elite, 6 Troop, 4 Fast, 4Heavy. Purchasing the 3rd HQ choice unlocks the extra Elite, Fast, and Heavy slots.
That's an interesting idea. Wonder if they'll start doing that to other armies.
Supplements are doing that now- eldar/iyanden, tau/farsight, csm/black legion.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
Quark wrote:Iyanden have no rule allowing allying with Eldar.
No, but it allows you to field 4 Wraithknights. Black Legion lets you get in another Helldrake.
Since other armies can already have allies, and their supplements allow for FO tweaks, I wouldn't be surprised if Tyranids come bog-standard with some way to stretch the FO.
Symbio Joe wrote: What? Did the Hiveguard not sell enough so it needs skyfire?
I wish upon a star that this codex brings back all the biomorphs the prior one made disappaer.
No Tyranids just need some anti-air unit capability that isn't just winged tyrants and Hiveguard make sense for that role given the weapons they have.
Skriker
It's wish-listing and I doubt it will happen, but I always thought that the gargoyles should have some anti-air capability; some kind of engine clogging/grappling ability where Xd6 number of gargoyles die but they crash the flyer or ground a flying monstrous creature. It would be in line with the fluff and would make a swarm army more viable. It would also be better than making a model that is already overrepresented even more ubiquitous.
They will get some form of anti-air. Their fluff makes it seem as though they are actually very good at dealing with things in the sky, and I'm sure GW won't just leave them hanging. That said, the Gargoyles idea is an interesting one.
gorgon wrote:The lack of grenades is something people like to complain about, but isn't a crippling thing in reality.
Someone hit on it earlier...what this book really needs to support is legitimate horde play that doesn't involve Tervigons pooping out babies. We haven't had that since 3rd edition, and it's arguably THE iconic look for Tyranids. (I actually had success in 4th with semi-zilla -- 5 or 6 MCs plus 100 gribblies -- but realistically that edition was all about full nidzilla.)
gorgon wrote: The lack of grenades is something people like to complain about, but isn't a crippling thing in reality.
Someone hit on it earlier...what this book really needs to support is legitimate horde play that doesn't involve Tervigons pooping out babies. We haven't had that since 3rd edition, and it's arguably THE iconic look for Tyranids. (I actually had success in 4th with semi-zilla -- 5 or 6 MCs plus 100 gribblies -- but realistically that edition was all about full nidzilla.)
Sad when IG out number Nids. I think Nids should be able to out number Orks even. Tyranids are 3rd on the list when it comes to horde armies sadly.
You need more Gargoyles. They're (still) a fantastic unit. And nothing is broken with respect to huge numbers of 'gants - your choice of expensive devourer ones or dirt cheap fleshborers. But Tervigons do make them better, even without creating any new 'gants on their own. (Hormagaunts are, as previously noted, about 2 pts too expensive when upgraded.)
What 6e took away was any semblance of successful genestealer usage. It worked in 5e, through using large units with a marjority in 4+ cover at all times, with 4+ FNP from Catalyst thrown on top. Given the current rules for cover, it's much, much harder to keep expensive 'stealers alive - you need either Invisibility (about 50/50 on the one psyker who can even get it), or Telekine Dome, and even then FNP isn't what it used to be.
More importantly was the changes to Outflank. 5th was rough on Tyranids, but one of the few ways I made them work (to tournament success, no less) was having the main blob advance in a bit of an onion wrapped formation. Only I stuck 2-3 Trygons right out front like an offensive line. People always went the other way, trying to progressively build layers of cover saves, but I found that meant Trygons weren't in combat for 4 turns and that's a huge waste of points. I put Venomthropes in the middle of the force, completely obscured by the Trygons and Tervigons, and moved the entire thing up the field. Trygons and Raveners then broke from the front when in assault range (which was a turn sooner in 5th). With lots of shooting threats now tied up, the Tervigons could birth out some gribblies and the main wave could hit. Right about that time, the Genestealer broods would come in from the sides, and could move, run, AND assault when they arrived. That's what made Genestealers so deadly: besides just being a great CC Troops choice, there was no wasted time between their arrival and charge. No chance for the opponent to shoot them down.
My tournament record (in matches) with this style was 23-1. The one loss came to a Tournament Organizer custom mission in the finals of an event where both armies were required to arrive piecemeal. The objective was in the center, and the only terrain pieces were in the 4 corners. Deployment had to be within 18" of the center... My Tervigons arrived first, along with the Termagants, and his first units were the Long Fangs and a Vindicator. Game was all-but over turn one. I scratched and clawed back into it somewhat, but had no units that could claim the objective.
-Loki- wrote:
krazynadechukr wrote: Why can't tyranids get some bio upgrade, like "spits acid" (counts as having grenades)?
Cruddace, basically. He decided to take all of the options out of the book. Hormagaunts, Gaunts and Genestealers could take Flesh Hooks (Assault grenades). Genestealers and Gaunts could take Scuttlers (Scout). Genestealers could take Acid Maw (reroll failed wounds in first turn of combat) and Feeder Tendrils (Preferred Enemy against everyone, and give it to any unit within 2").
Just putting those sorts of options back in the book would be great. No need to resort to stat line modification, just give us back those sorts of upgrades and sanely priced base profiles.
They will have upgrades back in. And I agree that the stat-line doesn't need modified. That's actually a pretty awful way to try for balance.
Ratius wrote:Lame GW pics as per usual (not aimed at you Kan, just in general). Real deal:
I like how both the Marines and Tyranids are depicted there: Fearless, stalwart super-people standing their ground. The endless masses, with no care or mercy for what's in front of them, just seeking their precious biomass.
Bell of Lost Souls 8/19/13 wrote:First off, most rumors are pointing to November for Nids - and we all know that new releases ship the first Saturday of the month.
Carnifex - significant cost reduction
Harpy – big overhaul. New model/dual-combo kit, Flying Monstrous, Sonic Screech combines with Vector striking. Additional Spore Mine Cysts may be purchased as upgrades. Default Stranglethorn has new upgrade options.
New Flyer - Fast Attack choice, the alternative build for the Harpy kit.
Ymgarl Genestealers - New special arrival rule is shared with the Lictor, may now purchase standard Genestealer biomorph upgrades.
Hiveguard: new weapon upgrade option (available to a handful of units) that grants skyfire with an "enhanced ability" to ground FMCs.
Love the picture of Hive Guard harpooning FMC's to ground them. "Get over here!"
Quark wrote:Iyanden have no rule allowing allying with Eldar.
No, but it allows you to field 4 Wraithknights
The Wraithknight warlord is still Heavy Support.
The point still remains. GW can get creative with ways to allow Tyranids to field additional units in other FO slots; especially if the rumor of an expanded FO chart is true. In the case of the Wraithknight, he/she can get the benefits of being a Warlord without eating into the precious Spirit Seer slots. Oh, and you can effectively field 4 Heavy Support that way. Doesn't seem like anything but a plus.
Equip a Tyrant a certain way and add a [insert slot].
Equip a Carnifex a certain way and move it to [insert slot].
Unless everything is getting a significant decrease in points, I don't see the point in 3 hq, 4 elites, Fast attack, and heavy support. What does it do that double force org doesn't? It seems really odd to me. Moving units to other slots makes much more sense IMHO.
Bell of Lost Souls 8/19/13 wrote:First off, most rumors are pointing to November for Nids - and we all know that new releases ship the first Saturday of the month.
Carnifex - significant cost reduction
Harpy – big overhaul. New model/dual-combo kit, Flying Monstrous, Sonic Screech combines with Vector striking. Additional Spore Mine Cysts may be purchased as upgrades. Default Stranglethorn has new upgrade options.
New Flyer - Fast Attack choice, the alternative build for the Harpy kit.
Ymgarl Genestealers - New special arrival rule is shared with the Lictor, may now purchase standard Genestealer biomorph upgrades.
Hiveguard: new weapon upgrade option (available to a handful of units) that grants skyfire with an "enhanced ability" to ground FMCs.
Love the picture of Hive Guard harpooning FMC's to ground them. "Get over here!"
I would've thought it'd be for harpooing flyers, since Tyranids are the original flying Monstrous Creature race, you'd think they'd specialise in taking down flyers.
Cratfworld Alaitoc (Gallery)
Order of the Red Mantle (Gallery)
Grand (little) Army of Chaos, now painting! (Blog)
Sinful Hero wrote: Unless everything is getting a significant decrease in points, I don't see the point in 3 hq, 4 elites, Fast attack, and heavy support. What does it do that double force org doesn't? It seems really odd to me. Moving units to other slots makes much more sense IMHO.
Is very probably that there is going to be a significant decrease in points.
Even allowing for different distributions of the force organization the real problem caused by the Tyranids not being able to take allies isn't addressed. Before the whole allies thing armies had built in weaknesses that couldn't be addressed. Tau and IG lacked reliable CC troops, Orks lacked reliable S9+ weapons, Necrons lacked meat shields, etc. All of these weaknesses can be addressed with allies.
Tyranids are deficient in ranged weapons, with a complete lack of ranged anti-heavy tank weapons. It's why 4-6 hive guard, the one unit that can take a S8 weapon, show up in almost every competitive build. Even with that AV14 vehicles are almost impossible to deal with until you get your MC's on them, and that's an if. The problem opened up by the lack of allies is the Tyranids have to be able to address all issue within their one codex. What I hope to see is uniquely Tryanid ways of dealing with this. The gargoyle/flyer idea was one, but another similar idea is the ability to immobilize vehicles representing bodies gumming up the tracks leaving the tanks to be finished off by larger bugs.
I love the visual of Tyranids being the ant swarm, taking down things 100 times their size by weight of numbers, but since 4th edition it's been difficult play anything but nidzilla competitively and since the rumors are mostly focused on new MC's, and people need a reason to buy them, I don't think that's going to change.
In 5th I was successful with swarming stealers... but 6th killed them in assault. I'm back to Nidzilla and loving it. If the new codex means more zilla I'll be extremely happy.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
I like these rumors but the more I re-read them they're giving off an odor of "Safe Bets" instead of real source rumors. We will probably see many if not all of these things in the new book but its too far out (even at 2 months) to get uber-excited.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
rigeld2 wrote: In 5th I was successful with swarming stealers... but 6th killed them in assault. I'm back to Nidzilla and loving it. If the new codex means more zilla I'll be extremely happy.
I actually did to, with 48 stealers behind waves of gaunts. They were the swiss army knife of the Tyranid list in that they could match the Eldar initiative, had rending to deal with heavy troops and armor, and enough attacks to not get bogged down by swarms.
Quark wrote:Iyanden have no rule allowing allying with Eldar.
No, but it allows you to field 4 Wraithknights
The Wraithknight warlord is still Heavy Support.
The point still remains. GW can get creative with ways to allow Tyranids to field additional units in other FO slots; especially if the rumor of an expanded FO chart is true. In the case of the Wraithknight, he/she can get the benefits of being a Warlord without eating into the precious Spirit Seer slots. Oh, and you can effectively field 4 Heavy Support that way. Doesn't seem like anything but a plus.
Equip a Tyrant a certain way and add a [insert slot].
Equip a Carnifex a certain way and move it to [insert slot].
And so on.
GW can do whatever they want because it's their game. Including changing the chart ala Space Wolves, which didn't even need a supplement to game the system. What options they have and what they are willing to do, however, is separate from the fact that I keep seeing misinterpretations of the Iyanden supplement (and Farsight supplement, for that matter). Way too many people are taking partial screenshots, assumptions from other supplements, or third party quotes and getting the actual rules wrong.
For that matter, how does making a Wraithknight your Warlord give you an effective 4 Heavy Support? He's still Heavy Support, he still counts for force org, he's just a warlord that's not an HQ. You still need an HQ and you still can only take 2 other Heavy Support.
aceface wrote: Will the Doom be the same ? Bet he's going to take a massive .
They're going to forsure take a steamy dump on The Doom.
This relase, if it goes according to schedule, is too soon. Yes, I'm stoked- but my budget isn't going to be that great. I'm definitely buying any special edition crap they choose to sell.
Unix wrote: Tyranids are deficient in ranged weapons, with a complete lack of ranged anti-heavy tank weapons. It's why 4-6 hive guard, the one unit that can take a S8 weapon, show up in almost every competitive build. Even with that AV14 vehicles are almost impossible to deal with until you get your MC's on them, and that's an if.
You seem to be stuck in 5th edition.
Tyranids haven't had it easier with vehicles than they do now, and Hive Guard don't factor in at all. With the inclusion of Hull Points, MC's with Devourers (most commonly seen on Flyrants) can very easily strip up to AV 12 vehicles in a single salvo, and vehicles with less (or hit in rear armour thanks to their mobility) will start taking penetrating hits to strip off weapons and immobilise them. Flyrants are also a good answer to AV14, since they can drop into glide mode and Smash a vehicle in assault if absolutely needed. The ever present Tervigons can also catch them in assault now due to AV14 vehicles tending to be slow, and Tervigons being faster than they used to be thanks to random charge distances.
Add on top of this the fact that massed vehicles just aren't common anymore anyway, and armour has never been easier for Tyranids to deal with. Hive Guard are really redundant these days. Their only niche is AV13. They don't have the shots needed to strip AV14 hull points, they can't even get a lucky 1 hit kill on AV 14 anymore, and AV12 and under is better dealt with via Brainleech Devourers. On top of this, they're pretty terrible at killing infantry once the tanks are gone. So unless you're facing an abundance of AV13 (for example, Eldar or Necron players), Hive Guard are better left at home.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/08/20 01:44:26
rigeld2 wrote: Abundance of AV13 or a lot of T4 Multi-wound models (Paladins).
Crisis suits & broadsides, anything out of LoS....
A flyrant w/devourers is 260+ pts. 3 Hive Guard only get half the shots, but they cost accordingly. I still use 1 unit in just about every case. Opponents often don't have the spare firepower to shoot at them (whereas a Flyrant is always going to draw fire), which lets them continue to impact the game for most of it.
50 points for 2 S8 shots that still need to get past the 2+ save is 50 points wasted, and Tyranids right now don't have points to waste. There's very few multiwould models Tyranids can't deal with without Hive Guard, enough to, again, make them fairly redundant.
I keep two in my army as well, mostly for backline defense against deep striking or fast moving vehicles like Raiders and Venoms, but I don't pretend they're actually worth their points if those targets don't turn up. An actual reason to use them, like gaining Skyfire, would be fantastic.
(building)
(less)
Cratfworld Alaitoc (
Order of the Red Mantle (
Grand (little) Army of Chaos, now painting! (
