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Made in us
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




Minot, ND

So as we are swiftly approaching the next iteration of Codex: Space Marine there has been a lot of rumors and leaks about the specific rules and new units. This is not one of those.

Rather it’s an idea I had regarding unit size relative to the mission at hand. In a smaller game, somewhere between 250 – 750 points, the forces involved are going to be small, especially for an army like Space Marines. This I see representing a combat patrol, scouting action, or a light skirmish between expanding forces. However one thing that always seemed odd was the presence of high ranking Space Marines in these games. A Captain is not going to normal be part of a routine patrol, nor would a Librarian be involved in a scouting action unless they were expecting something that would require a Librarians extraordinary talent. Even where a smaller game represents a part of a much larger battle it would be unlikely that anyone ranked higher than a sergeant would be in command of that section, as the higher ranked characters are going to be in the most critical areas where they can do the most good.

So the idea here is to allow specific Elite units to function as HQs with or without retinue in small battles. One example that works for the above situations is to have a Sternguard Veteran squad function with the Sergeant as an HQ choice with 2-5 Veterans as his retinue. This would allow a force to deploy a more effect fighting force at smaller point battles while still keeping the force organization chart intact, and preventing the heavy point sink for a normal HQ that really shouldn’t be in every single skirmish. There is only one captain to a hundred Marines; he can’t be everywhere at once.

Other ideas for more specialize, and thematic, forces lead by Elites as HQs include Tech Marines (recovering lost artifacts) and Apothecaries (searching for wounded/collecting geneseed), or even a Venerable Dreadnought (The senior most marine on the field).

Thoughts?

War is not a matter of who is right, it is a matter of who is left.

It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. Then it’s fun and games without depth perception. - TSOALR

 azreal13 wrote:

But the strawman holocaust in Notts continues apace.
 
   
Made in gb
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster






I actually like that a lot as an idea. No reason you couldnt house rule it and see how it goes. I may try just that.

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Made in us
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine






IIRC, there is a ruleset from GW for 500pts that discards FOC.

4500
 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Adepticon's 400 point Combat Patrol. Perfect for a small game:

http://www.adepticon.org/13rules/2013cp.pdf


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Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

 troa wrote:
IIRC, there is a ruleset from GW for 500pts that discards FOC.


It alters it - you get 0-0 HQ, 0-1 Elites, up to 0-2 troops, 0-1 fast attack, and 0-0 Heavy Support.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





Hmm, I remember when you could take one in the CSM dex, the aspiring champion was a sarge in the HQ slot. Along with a few in the C:SM dex I think as well.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






From fluff perspective this has always bothered me. This is why my Crimson Templars have Lieutenants; Captain doesn't need to be present in every little skirmish. Of course rules-wise these Lieutenants are just Captains with not so fancy gear.

   
Made in us
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




Minot, ND

That's exactly the point I was getting at. I don't know why there can't be SM Lieutenants except that there aren't any. It seems weird that the SM organization only has four real ranks. Six if you count Scouts and Initiates as a rank.

War is not a matter of who is right, it is a matter of who is left.

It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. Then it’s fun and games without depth perception. - TSOALR

 azreal13 wrote:

But the strawman holocaust in Notts continues apace.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Chesapeake Beach, Maryland

Imperial Deceit wrote:
That's exactly the point I was getting at. I don't know why there can't be SM Lieutenants except that there aren't any. It seems weird that the SM organization only has four real ranks. Six if you count Scouts and Initiates as a rank.


Its because by the time you make Sergeant in the Astartes you have more battle experience than most IG Generals and if you need a Lieutenant equivalent then a Veteran Sergeant would be your best bet.

Typical progression of a codex space marine goes along these lines

Scout, Devastator, Assault Marine, Tactical Marine, Sergeant, Veteran, Veteran Sgt, Captain, Chapter Master

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/14 12:24:39


   
Made in us
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




Minot, ND

Hence my original idea.

War is not a matter of who is right, it is a matter of who is left.

It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. Then it’s fun and games without depth perception. - TSOALR

 azreal13 wrote:

But the strawman holocaust in Notts continues apace.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Chesapeake Beach, Maryland

Imperial Deceit wrote:
Hence my original idea.


I wasn't trouncing your idea, it is good Was just injecting my 2 cents about the SM Lieutenant thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/14 13:06:20


   
Made in fr
Swift Swooping Hawk






We allow any model that has the character type to be Warlord in games under 500pts.
   
Made in gb
Ichor-Dripping Talos Monstrosity






I really like this idea.

I'm thinking of going a step further with a 'generic' unit entry for all codexes.
Something along the lines of:
HQ:
X Commander (where X is the Character used.)
Cost 15pts + Base unit.
You may select any non-HQ Character model within the Codex to use as an X Commander.
The chosen Character gains 1 wound and becomes an Independent Character.
The model may take any wargear it could take as part of the unit.
All units count as 0-1 if X Commanders are the only HQ choice taken, though you may choose 1 Troops choice to be 0-2. (Note, if you select 2 X Commanders, you can still only have one 0-2 Troops Choice).

So for example, using C:CSM, I choose a Terminator Champion Commander, with the Mark of Slaanesh and Veterans of the Long War for 55pts (33 for Champion, 7 for upgrades, 15 for X Commander) and select Chaos Space Marines for my 0-2 unit.

   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Boston, MA

In 3rd and 4th edition, there were cheaper 2 wound HQs that Marines could take that filled this niche. I've always liked them thematically. If you're doing combat patrol, you could probably pay an extra ~20 points to give your single sergeant an extra wound and make him the warlord. That'd be neat.

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Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Well, even in the present there's a precedent (although not exactly a 6th ed one) - the Wolf Guard battle leader...

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Boston, MA

That's more just Space Wolves being Space Wolves. There are cheapo librarians/sorcerers though, so that's kind of similar. Dark Apostles and stuff too.

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Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 Brother SRM wrote:
That's more just Space Wolves being Space Wolves. There are cheapo librarians/sorcerers though, so that's kind of similar. Dark Apostles and stuff too.


Dark Apostle costs MORE then a Chaos Lord (and is weaker and more worthless to boot)

And with the Sorcerer only 5 points less then the Chaos lord, the Sorc and Chaos Lord are the cheapest options in the book for HQ's.
   
Made in us
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




Minot, ND

Which is also what I am trying to work out. Many armies have an easier time with this because the either have cheaper Hq choices or more logical Hq choices for small games (like Tyranid Primes). Space Marines, and to a lesser extent Chaos need something to fill that gap. This could easily be extended to other armies though, IG fighiting at a platoon level with just a PCS as an HQ, Orks being lead by a Nob out to make a name for himself, a DE raid headed up by Kabalite Trueborn.

War is not a matter of who is right, it is a matter of who is left.

It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. Then it’s fun and games without depth perception. - TSOALR

 azreal13 wrote:

But the strawman holocaust in Notts continues apace.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gulf Breeze Florida

Chaos doesn't really have ranks though( barring WB) it's pretty much Lord( which technically any leader of a Chaos Warband, regardless of size, would be a Chaos Lord,), Aspiring Champ, Everyone else.

You could represent a Weaker Warlord by just running him with no toys.


 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
Chaos doesn't really have ranks though( barring WB) it's pretty much Lord( which technically any leader of a Chaos Warband, regardless of size, would be a Chaos Lord,), Aspiring Champ, Everyone else.

You could represent a Weaker Warlord by just running him with no toys.


There used to be lieutenants back in the 3.5 dex.

It was what they made purely into the sorcerer later on. Before it was like the chaos lord which could become a sorcerer lord and all that.
   
Made in us
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine




Minot, ND

I thought chaos had Aspiring Champions? Using one of those from a Chosen squad would make an excellent mini-hq.

War is not a matter of who is right, it is a matter of who is left.

It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. Then it’s fun and games without depth perception. - TSOALR

 azreal13 wrote:

But the strawman holocaust in Notts continues apace.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gulf Breeze Florida

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
Chaos doesn't really have ranks though( barring WB) it's pretty much Lord( which technically any leader of a Chaos Warband, regardless of size, would be a Chaos Lord,), Aspiring Champ, Everyone else.

You could represent a Weaker Warlord by just running him with no toys.


There used to be lieutenants back in the 3.5 dex.

It was what they made purely into the sorcerer later on. Before it was like the chaos lord which could become a sorcerer lord and all that.


They had many things back then.


I will note that The Cadre Fireblade is a great choice for Tau looking to do something like this.


 
   
 
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