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Razordons bring a new problem to the monster and handler rules.

Handlers can make attacks against any enemy in base to base with the monster. Seems clear enough.
Running in 2 ranks brings up some questions:

Are handlers attached model by model, or to the unit?
If they are attached to the individual razordon, then we'd have to track skinks on each one in the unit.
If they are attached to the unit, they you'd keep rolling handler saves unit you're out of skinks.

Are razordons ultimate cannonball stoppers?
Cannon bounce through the unit, first model is wounded, cannon does D6 wounds and rolls a 5. Multiple wounds vs multi-wound moster wound knock this down to 3 (number on the razordons profile).
Razordon then rolls 3 times looking for a 5+ to have a handler take the wound. If he rolls a single 5+, the First Razordon hit isn't slain (as outlined on page 113), and the cannon ball stops.

The effects of unit buffs on a big unit with lots of handlers seems really good.
Wild form and alter of khorne (terrain) would have a unit of 6 razordons (little over 400 points) throw out 16 S6 attacks and 48 S4 attacks; against an enemy 40mm wide!

-Matt

Firstly, I thought the process was monster is wounded -> take saves -> roll to see if handler or monster is hit (this is he unsaved wound) -> multiple wounds kicks in (see how many wounds the unsaved wound was equal to).

That makes them slightly less effective as cannon stoppers, but still blooming good.

The other question is really tricky. I would assume they belong to individual models, but that makes for awful assignment issues.

Maybe wounds would be taken in blocks - each wound is rolled and could potentially kill 1 model's worth of handlers. When a MB dies, you start the next block of wounds.

Handlers are attached to the model. The unit composition for a Razordons says: 1 Razordon and 3 Skink Handlers. There is nothing rule wise that says to float the handlers into a pool.

For the cannon, you would roll to wound, randomize to see what takes it, then multiply. The rules are a little foggy there, but you can't multiply the wounds via Multiple Wounds until you see where the wound is actually going IMO. Until you know where the hit occurs, you don't know whether the 1 wound skink or the three wound Razordon takes the hit to reduce the multiple wounds to.

Ugh, that was a clunky sentence but I hope my line of thought comes through.

Neither of those issues is new, it's exactly the same as it was last book – clear as mud.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Are handlers attached model by model, or to the unit?
If they are attached to the individual razordon, then we'd have to track skinks on each one in the unit.
If they are attached to the unit, they you'd keep rolling handler saves unit you're out of skinks.

The models have the special rules. Generally units don't have unit-spanning special rules. Maybe stuff like stubborn and stupid and unbreakable. This is also pertinent because you have to know when to take a monster reaction tests and if you just have a pile, it can go either way (your enemy could say as soon as you lose 3, you have to take one test, even if you have more than enough in your pool to cover them). Besides, it defines units as 1+ packs and a pack is 1 razordon and 3+ skinks.

Are razordons ultimate cannonball stoppers?
Cannon bounce through the unit, first model is wounded, cannon does D6 wounds and rolls a 5. Multiple wounds vs multi-wound moster wound knock this down to 3 (number on the razordons profile).
Razordon then rolls 3 times looking for a 5+ to have a handler take the wound. If he rolls a single 5+, the First Razordon hit isn't slain (as outlined on page 113), and the cannon ball stops.

I think it stops, RAW. The FAQ says you roll D6 for templates, which a cannon is. And the BRB is clear that the MB has to be slain for it to continue, which it has not been.

Davall wrote:
Handlers are attached to the model. The unit composition for a Razordons says: 1 Razordon and 3 Skink Handlers. There is nothing rule wise that says to float the handlers into a pool.

For the cannon, you would roll to wound, randomize to see what takes it, then multiply. The rules are a little foggy there, but you can't multiply the wounds via Multiple Wounds until you see where the wound is actually going IMO. Until you know where the hit occurs, you don't know whether the 1 wound skink or the three wound Razordon takes the hit to reduce the multiple wounds to.

Ugh, that was a clunky sentence but I hope my line of thought comes through.

When a monster suffers an unsaved wound, roll a D6. On a 1-4 the monster suffers the wound as normal, but on a 5-6 a handler model is removed instead.
We aren't given a sequence, so it's pretty muddy. If you transfer the unsaved wound first, then a single skink would take the D6 wounds; which makes it even better, as it neuters the multiple wound effect of the cannons. If you roll multiple wounds first, you're producing more average effects.
The problem is, the "Hit" doesn't occur. We're bouncing around unsaved wounds. I believe previous FAQ said multiple then distribute, but that FAQ has been pulled.

As for the handlers being attached, the unit consists of 1+ packs (each pack consists of 1 Razordon and 3 handlers).
If you actually play were each Razor/Salamander has it's own pool of handlers, then you run into another huge problem. Try and process normal shooting.
High Elf archers score 11 wounds on a unit of 4 salamanders. 2 salamanders bound an extra handler, 1 salamander was wounded earlier and lost a handler. So I have a wound marker on the unit, 2 salamanders with 4 handlers, 1 with 3 handlers, and 1 with 2 handlers.
How do you allocate the hits between the Razordons? Rules say to apply hits to the unit, apply wounds to the unit. Failed saved may be transferred to skinks, but saves that are not transferred are applied to the unit.

Monster and Handlers break as soon as you have more than one monster.

I didn't really see this come up in the old rules, because you didn't see massive skink clounds (24+ skinks) around a large unit of monsters.

If you transfer the unsaved wound first, then a single skink would take the D6 wounds

This was already FAQed.

Q: When a Monster and Handlers unit sufers a Wound from an
attack that causes Multiple Wounds, is the multiplier applied after
rolling tosee whois wounded? (p73)
A: Yes.


You don't roll unless a monster takes a wound. Handlers don't exist before then in terms of dmg absorption or targetting. Hits don't matter. You allocate per shooting as normal. You roll to wound vs. the monster stats, if you wound, you see if handler or monster. But the M&H rule says you allocate to the handler or monster, not the unit. The M&H rule bypasses shooting allocation, just like any other quasi monster and handler hoodah-type unit.

Handlers are just ward saves with finite uses. That can also attack in cc.

What happens if 1 model loses all its handlers? Surely a monster reaction test would affect the whole unit? Also seems a bit broken.

-Stupid-one model affects them all
-Unbreakable-the whole unit has to have it to get the benefit, but the one model won't move so the entire unit can't
-Frenzy/Hatred-apply to the one monster, but since it has to charge, the unit does.

That's how I see it. There's pros and cons. The pros being you get a lot of disposable ward saves with lots of handlers and war machine saves. But if you have some models go berzerk in your unit, they all get messed up.

you would need at least 1 handler per monster to not have to test.


Even though you get 3 handlers per monster for a pack, the unit itself is the combined packs.

I wouldnt personally slow the game down by keeping tract of each monsters 3 handlers, not even in a tourny.

Eihnlazer wrote:
I wouldnt personally slow the game down by keeping tract of each monsters 3 handlers, not even in a tourny.

Not that you'd have to worry the to tends to decide how such things go.
I haven't seen any tournament that does the track handlers separately thing but i haven't really been to all the tournaments everywhere.
Still TOs like to have things go faster when possible.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Davall wrote:

If you actually play were each Razor/Salamander has it's own pool of handlers, then you run into another huge problem. Try and process normal shooting.
High Elf archers score 11 wounds on a unit of 4 salamanders. 2 salamanders bound an extra handler, 1 salamander was wounded earlier and lost a handler. So I have a wound marker on the unit, 2 salamanders with 4 handlers, 1 with 3 handlers, and 1 with 2 handlers.
How do you allocate the hits between the Razordons? Rules say to apply hits to the unit, apply wounds to the unit. Failed saved may be transferred to skinks, but saves that are not transferred are applied to the unit.

Monster and Handlers break as soon as you have more than one monster.
.

Yes, the M&H rule is broken for units with more than one. Just reading the rule makes it pretty clear they didn't write it with more than one in mind. As to which skins are removed, HIWPI nothing seems elegant enough to make it seem right. I think I would just keep track of the skinks individually on each Razordon. PITA? Yeah. But it is not really any more bookkeeping than tracking multiple heroes in a unit.

I have a quest, dont the Razordon/Salamander (As the Monster/MB) and the Handlers (as the Crew) count as 1 model? 1 Salamander consists of 1 MB, and 3-4 Handers. If this is the case as I think they do , based on BRB, If they are hit by a Cannon, would not both the MB and the Handlers be hit, as the cannon Template, hits all the models, the same as the cannon hits both the mount and the rider, or the bell and the Seet, and so on.? So Cannon his a unit, Role to wound the MB, Make Save role for Multiple wounds, Then role for each Handler. If hit by normal shooting, As 2-3 groups of these models make up a unit, Then you would apply all attacks to one group of models. So First Role to hit the MB/Handler, roll to see who got hit, Then roll to wound. take damage from one model at a time.


You are shoouting at 3 salamaders with 3 skinks each, With a standard shooting attack into the unit with Bows that does D3 wounds, you do, 8 hits, 4 hit the Salamanders, 4 hit the Skinks, Roll to wound with Each Salamander hit, 2 of them wound, now role the first D3, If that kills the Salamander, remove him and the Handlers, If not roll the Second D3 and apply to the same Salamander, once he is dead, remove his Skinks, If he is not dead, apply skink wounds starting with this model other wise shoot the next Salamanders Skinks, you do three wounds, three of that Salamanders skins are now dead, Now you are left with 2 Salamanders and 3 skinks total, in the Unit, No Monster Reaction is taken as the unit still has skinks to keep the Samanders in line, Yes they are form the Other Model, but they are still part of one Mixed unit. The next wounds start with the MB that has no handlers, as wounds are always taken for hurt models first. At least that is how i understand it from how shooting works.

GW didn't keep a lot of things during this update, the hunting pack is just one example.

cawizkid wrote:
I have a quest, dont the Razordon/Salamander (As the Monster/MB) and the Handlers (as the Crew) count as 1 model?

No, they count as 1 model and 3 to 4 tokens.

Read the Monster and Handler special rule. Handlers are only tokens; their placement on the battlefield doesn't matter, if they are in the way, move them aside. They only come into play when the monster is in combat, or when the the monsters takes an unsaved wound. They specifically cannot be targeted/harmed/killed on their own.

Oh, it does say that any monstrous reaction applies to the remaining beasts. So I was right. *star for me*

Cawzid: No, you don't determine who is hit until a wound is made. That's the M&H rule.

Hrem, I was going to say that it's the model that owns the M&H rule, but they actually own the hunting pack rule. And the hunting pack rule specifically says it's a number of monstrous beastS (plural) and infantry handlers. Which already isn't what M&H is, which is singular.

Anyway, I think you treat them exactly like you treat a 1 unit hydra + handlers or anything else. You keep track of their counters. Yeah, it can be trickier but I don't see how you can do otherwise within the rules--as that's how you do it with 1 and there are no provisions for multiple.

I still don't see how to process normal shooting to multiple Razors with their own handler pool.
Roll to hit, roll to wound, roll armor save.
Then... ?
Pick a razordon of my choice and start rolling handler saves?
What happens if he runs out of handlers? Pick another Razordon?

Then on my turn, the razordons fire. If they all have their own pool of handlers, you'll need to track model by model, which artillery die match with which razordon.

Vs cannon; if the wound gets taken by the skink handler, does the ball stop? The model hit wasn't "slain" but the handler doesn't have the Monstrous Warbeast unit type to halt the cannon shot; the razordon does.

-Matt

Niteware wrote:
What happens if 1 model loses all its handlers? Surely a monster reaction test would affect the whole unit? Also seems a bit broken.

The Handlers are effectively 'pooled' across the unit. As long as one handler is alive there is no Monster Reaction test.

There is no hint they are pooled and every hint they aren't. The M&H rule doesn't say it and the entry for individual models doesn't say it.

DukeRustfield wrote:
There is no hint they are pooled and every hint they aren't. The M&H rule doesn't say it and the entry for individual models doesn't say it.

Which means we are left with an unplayable rule. We aren't told to track wounds on each hunting pack individually, but you cannot in practice play with allocated handlers without tracking individual wounds.
Of course Monsters and Handlers are written in the singular; Monsters are singular units with rules that they cannot be joined or join units.

-Matt

I'm not sure it's unplayable. The thing that gets weird is stuff like shooting. But it's certainly not clear.

What's even worse is that the wording could be that each monster has 3 AND has a cloud of communal skinks. The cloud coming from any extra you buy via Options. The wording doesn't say where those go. One additional per pack doesn't necessarily mean they go IN the pack. So if you have 3 packs, you can buy 3 extra Skinks, which are ... where? Tied to the unit? 1 per each pack? 3 in one pack (the one in CC combat /wink)?

Would it be all that difficult to track them individually?
Or off to assume that at least GW thought it would be fine?

I say that thinking of the multi-wound shennanigans of 40k.

nvm

 kirsanth wrote:
Would it be all that difficult to track them individually?
Or off to assume that at least GW thought it would be fine?

I say that thinking of the multi-wound shennanigans of 40k.

The normal process for shooting, is you roll to hit, roll to wound, roll saves; all against rank and file. You don't assign unsaved wounds to models until you've done all the saves, then you pull kills from the back.
With each Monster with it's own special limited save, you would have to interrupt that process to assign wounds before you're done with the saves, because the number of special saves you take is limited.
The result of this is assigning wounds spread out of several monsters, with some making and some failing saves, you end up with multiple wounded models in a unit.
This is against the rules for multi-wound units.
This isn't really surprising, as the monster and handler rules were written for singular monsters and multi-wound unit rules are written specifically for groups of models.

I hope GW clarifies this, as I don't see a solution over the handlers are a cloud, which makes them a whole lot better.
If they really do stick with the dedicated skinks, the first shooting phase could result in a monster reaction; which is actually pretty awesome.
1-2 is stupidity, 3-4 is unbreakable, and 5-6 gives them frenzy and hatred (frenzy cannot be lost). 2/3rds of the time, the razordons get better.

-Matt

Yea, that is pretty much what I meant.

The rules for multi-wound units though could be used to remove whole monsters, but the handlers are not counted, are they?
Removing a handler from one monster in a unit makes that monster different, but it is not wounded.
(I have no book with me ATM, apologies.)

If they are a cloud you can't say where they are in terms of CC, which really is a lot more broken than shooting attacks.

I.e., if you have 3 monsters and 12 skinks (+3 from Options) and only one is in B2B contact with an enemy unit, you could say all 12 skinks are helping out in CC attacks. Go, cloud, go.

Them getting better from a monster reaction is pretty debatable.
1-2 Stupidity, worse IMO
3-4 unbreakable and cannot move, just turn on spot - effectively takes them out the game
5-6 Frenzy + Hatred Pretty good, only the normal dangers of frenzy
By the time two monsters have lost their handlers, you have more than 50% chance of not being able to move. That could happen with a single shooting phase.

I would assume that you need to track each model's handlers separately, that there is no cloud (additional handlers are 1 per pack) and that all wounds would need to be distributed as shooting - including ones in cc - so that you can tell which monster's handlers might be affected.