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Considering how downright god-awful the internal balance of the new book is, it's quite easy to see why most Daemons lists tend to look like cookie-cutter versions of 1 or 2 main builds.

Personally I feel that Daemons got a raw deal this edition... While a lot of the new concepts are very cool and really help give Daemons a unique identity and play-style, the overall implementation of everything just comes off as very half-arsed and extremely lazy, as if Ward didn't give a rat's fart about how things would turn out on the table top.
This is most evident first by how most choices in the book tend to be either "really good" for their points or "really crap" for the investment you're putting into them. Secondly, the fact that Daemons were followed immediately by High Elves who've easily got one of the best internally balanced books of the current edition. (right up alongside VC's & Empire in terms of how easy it is to build unique & flavourful lists)

To that end, some things that imho would really help give Daemon players a break and let us use what we want instead of the cookie-cutter builds if we want any kind of success are;

General Fixes:
- The 'Inspiring Presence' and 'Hold Your Ground' rules don't apply to hated god units only. (ie: General/BSB of Khorne will not work for any Slaanesh units and vise-versa - ditto for Tzeentch & Nurgle)
This at least makes non-mono builds more attractive while still keeping to the background of the enmity between the gods and their servents.

- Reign of Chaos moves to the Shooting Phase
No more overly clunky magic phase with way too much dice rolling & additional crazy effects potentially sodomising one player. Besides, it's not like Daemons have an exactly time consuming shooting phase anyways, and all the 'angry god throwing crap at you' results work like shooting attack anyways!
Also, the 2 result which forces the entire army to take Instability Tests - allow the General's IP rule to work to represent his/its will being strong enough to keep some control over their lesser servents. (near army-wide Ld7 really, really hurts!)
Finally, like in 40k, let Instruments provide a re-roll for the matching god-storm results. (ie: each Instrument of Khorne on the table gives a re-roll on the 'Khorne's Wrath' result.)

- Gifts Tables
Make them like the 40k ones. Ie: put all 4 of the 'protective gifts' into the Greater Gifts category instead of spreading them across everywhere and making it damn near impossible to gain ANY protection on your characters! (especially Heralds who are currently among the easiest characters in the game to kill)
Also, get rid of all the results that are merely duplicates of magic weapon effects and give us something useful & a bit more characterful instead. (ie: remove the ASF result from the Lesser Gift table as we can get that for the same cost through the ASF sword!)
Oh, and for the love of all that's unholy, please remove the aptly named 'Wand of Win' and give Tzeentch another weapon, or else swap it with the Staff to make it 50pts... Hell, even if it were one of the 75pts Artifacts people would still use it! But for 25pts it's OTT, and should you get it coupled alongside the +1DD reward, well, it gets quite broken rather fast.

Some magic banners of our own wouldn't be amiss either, since we're currently the only army without at least 1 army-specific banner.
(at the very least, it'd make-up for also being the only army in the game with no Scroll option/s!)

Lords:
- Lord of Change can choose spells from Lore of Tzeentch or any of the 8 BRB Lores. (though maybe exclude Lores of Life & Light just to prevent silly shenanigans)
It's the avatar of the God of fething Magic. As in, the only class of dude who can withstand the magical properties of Tzeentch's Impossible Fortress and get into His library, but apparently the only books left on the shelf are all about Alchemy...

- Daemon Prince can take up to 100pts of Gifts.
Show me another Lord choice who can't take 100+pts of magical equipment... And even with a full compliment of gifts open to him, he'll still be well behind his WoC counter-part.

Heroes:
- Heralds of Nurgle & Khorne gain option for Heavy Armour for +15pts (Nurgle) +20pts (Khorne). Slaanesh gets Light Armour as standard. (kinda cosmetic really, but it fits with the daintiness of Slaaesh!)

- Fix the costs of Khorne's Locii, right now they're dreadfully over-costed considering how easy the Herald is to kill.
The Lesser & Greater Tzeentch Locii could do with being a bit cheaper too, since they're both purely combat based and Horrors are just awful in combat.
Locus of Grace should probably be a bit more expensive for what it does honestly.

- Re-write Eppi's Tally of Pestilence table or else limit it to only a 12" range.

Core:
- Bloodletters = 12pts/model.
Yay! Now they're not garbage compared to the other options who currently leave them completely in the dust!

Special:
- Bloodcrushers gain Light Armour for a more respectable 3+ save (even Heavy Armour would be warranted imho). Right now Khorne's biggest problem is that his units get shot to pieces rather quickly before they can reach combat. At their current cost and with only a 4+ save, 'Crushers are simply the worst Monstrous Cav unit in the game.
For Daemons, Plaguedrones work better since they're tougher and have a better innate ability that isn't a one-shot charge-dependant gimmick meaning the only time you'll ever see 'Crushers is if someone is stubborn enough to run a mono Khorne list.

- Flamers gain Quick to Fire and drop 5pts/model in cost.

- Beasts should go up in points a bit honestly. Even at 70pts/model they'd be a solid competitive choice.

- Seekers go down to 16-18pts/model.
They're can't function like normal Fast Cav since they can't bait-and-flee, nor do they have a ranged option. They're chaff/re-directors who will give-up their points, or else war machine/T3 chaff hunters who can be readily shot to bits.

- Seeker Chariot goes down to 90pts a piece and can take 1-3 as a unit. They're only S4/T4/W4/6+/5++ and were complained about as being near-useless crap in the WD update. Why did the army book keep them so obviously bad???
Hell, even 80-85pts per is probably still a bit on the expensive side considering how fragile they are! At least grouping into small units can make them viable even while being say +15-20pts overcosted.

Rare:
- Skull Cannon increase to 180pts.
While 200pts might be more akin to it's abilities, keep in mind that it's rather vulnerable to being zapped by the Reign of Comedy table - with Ld7 the instant DI test & Dark Prince Thirsts results tend to auto-pop them or cripple them when they take effect.

- Soul Grinder 'Daemon of Nurgle' upgrade goes upto +10pts. With WS3, the -1 to-hit bonus from Nurgle is easily the best option, but currently it's priced below Tzeentch!
Drop the Warp Gaze upgrade to +30pts. It's BS3 - he's not hitting the broad side of a barn on a good day and he's already one of the costlier monsters. Plus it's not like Bolt Throwers are currently breaking the game!

- Exalted Seeker Chariot drop to 170pts.
Again, like the smaller Seeker Chariot, it's problem is being massively over-costed for a T4/6+/5++ model. It's current cost is laughable and the only reason to take one is simply because the model looks so tasty.
Plus, it's fighting for pts alongside the Skillcannon, Burny Chariot, Grinder & Drones, all of which are much, much better buys!

- Hellflayer drops to 100pts.
What part of S4/T4/6+/5++ while sharing the same section as a bunch of no-brainer options makes any kind of sense here?!? Again, they sucked in the WD update and were never used beyond "I like the model". Why didn't the book fix the obvious issues these things had?!!



Basically, make the half of the book that's currently laughable worth taking, organise the random gifts so Heroes aren't better left naked and re-point the stupid stuff to be less stupidly auto-take!

Proposed rules subforum.

Wow these are all solid suggestions in my opinion. If these were implemented they would make DoC fun to play again IMO.

Where to begin

General fixes.

1. Reign of chaos is fine leave it alone
2. the gifts and the Inspiring presence chamges are fine and make sense.

Core
Don't change anything bloodletters are just fine

Special
1. Bloodcrushers should have a 3+ but they are not the worst monstrous cav that belongs to Terradons. A 4+/5++ on t4 is still better than a 5+ on t3

2. the rest of your proposed changes are fine

rare
Other than the marks on the soul grinder (which mark of nurgle should be more points it is filthy) The rest of those aren't needed.

Skullcannon 200 its a cannon with a ward that moves like a chariot. (moronic invention)

Slaanesh chariots please drop them in cost

I wanna know who in the heck is buying those Chariot kits? I guess that just means 9th edition they will be boss.

 captain collius wrote:
Where to begin

General fixes.

1. Reign of chaos is fine leave it alone

Core
Don't change anything bloodletters are just fine

rare
Other than the marks on the soul grinder (which mark of nurgle should be more points it is filthy) The rest of those aren't needed.

Skullcannon 200 its a cannon with a ward that moves like a chariot. (moronic invention)

1. I've had far too many games where Riegn of Comedy has simply nuked me or my opponent unfairly...
For example, a recent game saw my opponent lose their Lv4 on Turn 2 which effectively won me the game right then an there as I gained magical dominance simply due on a fluke. (my opponent was NOT thrilled for obvious reasons!)
More often than not though, the table has nuked my own army. More than once I've nailed the snake-eyes early game and either popped ranks or outright lost most/all of a critical smaller unit such as those Furies, solo Beasts and other chaff. (Ld7 across the board hurts a lot!)

Moving it to the shooting phase at the very least cleans up the Magic Phase. There's enough dice rolling going on between dice generation, rolling for casting/dispels and then working out effects. It doesn't need the needless clutter of 10-20 added rolls, followed by rolls for scattering shots that tend to maybe kill all of 1 or 2 models!
On the other hand, our Shooting Phase is non-existant. Put the RoC there and suddenly the borking one person's magic isn't so increadibly auto-heinous and it keeps the game itself flowing instead of coming to a complete crawl.

Also, the angry God effects need some serious balancing... Nurgle & Tzeentch rules suck, while Slaanesh's 'The Dark Prince Thirsts' is simply disgustingly powerful.
I know a number of Daemon players who are to the point they actually don't even bother rolling for their opponent's units if they get the Nurgle/Tzeentch results & will only roll the Khorne template if there's lots of large units to make it worth the time wasting.

2. Bloodletters are easily 2pts/model overcosted. Combined with an entirely situational bonus in a game that is filled to the brim with chaff options and requiring the added Hero investment to make them hit decently. (and that Herald is damn easy to kill to add insult to injury)
Look at competitive lists - no one takes Bloodletters unless they're trying to give themselves a real challenge. Reduce their cost to what they should be and suddenly they're relevant and worth considering.

3. Meh, you could probably make the Bolt Thrower 'free' and no one would use it!

4. Skull Cannon may be worth 200'ish pts on paper, but it still has to deal with;
- Daemonic Instability typically on Ld7
- The Dark Prince Thirsters result which if it connects, is almost always an instant-kill on it.

Sure it's a ridiculous concept and rules, but being potentially tagged by the easily the most powerful Reign of Comedy result which happens on an 8, (a fairly common roll one 2D6), as well as being hit by double 1's in the magic phase means it should probably keep a 10-15pts 'break'.
Perhaps keeping the base cost 180 or 190pts and then making the 'Flaming Attacks' ability a 10-20pts upgrade instead of being part of the base cost would end the hate?

 nathan2004 wrote:
I wanna know who in the heck is buying those Chariot kits? I guess that just means 9th edition they will be boss.

Well, the Exalted Seeker Chariot is simply a gorgeous center piece, even if it'll only ever sit on a shelf for the foreseeable future.

I wouldn't be surprise if come 9th edition the Slaany chariots become the ultimate filth and cost like 50pts a pop and Skillcannons obviously become near 300pts of crap!

Shrug, I mostly like the Chaos book as it stands. It would hold up at a fair level if not for 3 things: BSB failure, Lord failure, and High Elves BotWD/everqueen.

Most of your suggestions are fine.

Change default options of gifts to include all bsb items up to such points. If wizard can get arcane items. Scroll solved. fragile heralds, not so fragile now.

ROC is fine. reroll for muscian, cool. I like that.

Fiends too expensive now. Add 4th attack back or drop costs

Bloodletter. I'm fine with the cost of the unit, if the heralds upgrades are improved/cheaper. ie better access to protection, and cheaper loci.

MAgic: Tzeentch Heralds should be able also roll for spells on other lores. I believe all but light and life, maybe reserve those for KArios alone. Even knowing which signature spells you're going to get makes the army 10X better.

Add Flaming to warp flame then flamers will be viable.

I'm fine with the rules as they are but tzeentch got screwed with its magic..worst lore in the game.

I just started demons and I think they are fun to play.

TCWarRoom wrote:
I just started demons and I think they are fun to play.

Fun, maybe.
Balanced and competitive, no.

The main issue I ahve with Daemons is not how good or bad they are power wise
It's how silly they look on the table
No army look less Fantasy-like than Daemons and their lack of ranked units and "normal" stuff
It has a very 40K style to it, too many small units wandering here and there, too few blocks
and the colours ... ARGH my eyes burn!

Ok the daemons are not broken as are all armys its just a perspetive of how you play a army now tell me have you looked at how daemons act in the fluff? they hate each other and other just more hate then others depending on what god they belong to hence why it makes sense for the IP and HYG not working when they are following someone who is not of there god.

Ok the Reign of chaos if it is such a issue take the exalted gift of that book that allows you to re-roll the winds of magic yes you might be giving your foe another roll but atleast it lowers the chance of you loosing units and please dont say i am forced to waste points on it if its a problem and this fix's it then its not a waste of points.

Reign of chaos is fine where it is time yourself playing another army and add the time it takes for the magic phase and shooting phase together after all daemons have little to non shooting this will mostly be the same amount of time in the long run.

The gifts table plan around the 0 result but if you get a result you like then that take it instead dont needlessly just take gifts because it is there...

We are not game designers we merly play the game so balance of cost of models should be more respected to the developers who make the game because they might have ran into somthing via play testing that if that model was too low on cost would become broken and over the top in power.

Armour should not exsist for daemons because they are not of this world they exsist in a plane that lacks the laws of the real world.

That is my honist opional of how i see this book.

Daemons have armor. You'll see bloodthirsters wear it and Daemon Princes and Skulltaker. It's even on their models. I mean, he's the god of war/death/killing/poop and stuff.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/AlternativeFW/xlarge/btp1.jpg

One of the biggest turn offs for me with DoC is how random they are to build. Random execution is one thing. Like Animosity. But list building is fun and creative and a large part of the strategy of the game. If you're stuck with not knowing what you'll get, you're at a massive disadvantage. Compare DoC to someone like Dwarfs, who have an expanded item list and see all the crazy combinations they can do. You can sit around for days planning strategies just on their equipment. You can't do that with DoC unless you're a really slow reader.

 Kaligoth wrote:
Ok the daemons are not broken as are all armys its just a perspetive of how you play a army now tell me have you looked at how daemons act in the fluff? they hate each other and other just more hate then others depending on what god they belong to hence why it makes sense for the IP and HYG not working when they are following someone who is not of there god.

Background does not equal game rules. You could have still kept the army super fluffy towards the background by simply disallowing the BSB/IP rules between the hated pairings of Khorne/Slaanesh & Tzeentch/Nurgle.
The fact that WoC don't have such a super fluff bunny rule makes it even more of slap in the face to Daemons players.

 Kaligoth wrote:
Ok the Reign of chaos if it is such a issue take the exalted gift of that book that allows you to re-roll the winds of magic yes you might be giving your foe another roll but atleast it lowers the chance of you loosing units and please dont say i am forced to waste points on it if its a problem and this fix's it then its not a waste of points.
Reign of chaos is fine where it is time yourself playing another army and add the time it takes for the magic phase and shooting phase together after all daemons have little to non shooting this will mostly be the same amount of time in the long run.

1. The book is only accessible through our Lord choices, of which the Daemon Prince is nearly unplayable levels of bad. What if I'm not playing a game that allows a Greater at all? Or what if you simply don't want to be shoehorned into a Greater and instead run Herald lists?
Besides, the book is a crap default when the E.Blade exists.

2. The complaints about Reign of Comedy aren't that adds time itself to the game, but rather that it horribly gaks all over [/I]the flow of the actual game play itself.[/I]
Instead of getting down to the business of actually casting my magic, I'm first of all rolling for a potential 10-15+ units to see if I roll any 6's. Then you're working out any/if it hits at all, rolling for wounds, rolling saves/panic tests, etc...
OR
On a low or high roll, it's simply far too game changing, with the sad fact being that the Daemon player typically takes it up the poop-shoot as a low roll means a very nasty penalty, on top of losing out on your Magic phase for that turn.

Reign of Comedy is a prime example of poorly implemented random for random's sake. At least the 40k version works much more favourably for the Daemon player instead of seemingly working against them.

 Kaligoth wrote:
The gifts table plan around the 0 result but if you get a result you like then that take it instead dont needlessly just take gifts because it is there...

The Gifts tables are crap because;
1. There is too much lazy duplication of BRB weapons. If we're giving up access to 3/4's of the game's Magic Items, then our random Gifts should damn well be worth the trade off! Instead, how many copies of 'ignores armour saves' or '+2S/+2A' does one really need in a freaking Daemons army?!
2. We can't viably protect our characters. At least 40k makes the random less random by slotting all the protection into one subset of Gifts. Thus, if I want my expensive LoC to be harder to kill, I can give it a pair of Greater Gifts and know full well that my odds of gaining some form of defensive upgrade is near guaranteed.
No one takes Heralds beyond Nurgle or Tzeentch right now because they're honestly not worth the pts when they're so damn easy to focus fire on. Most units in the game are capable of killing a 2 wound T3 or T4/5++ model.

There's no point "planning around the 0 result" when you know full well your 200-250+pts Herald will be dead within a single combat round.

 Kaligoth wrote:
We are not game designers we merly play the game so balance of cost of models should be more respected to the developers who make the game because they might have ran into somthing via play testing that if that model was too low on cost would become broken and over the top in power.

It doesn't take a games designer to know a turd product when we see one... Just go compare this book to the 40k version. Fantasy Daemons got dumped on because of plain incompetence.

Our book may be capable of still wrecking face at 'Tournaments', but that's not the point. Rather, the good stuff in our book is laughably good, while the plainly mediocre stuff struggles against even 'soft' choices from most other books.
Our book literally can be re-named to "Warhammer: Daemons of Nurgle & Slaanesh + Khorne's Khannon and maybe some occasional Horrors & Burning Chariots."

"Background does not equal game rules." this made me facepalm... There has to be a similarity to how the army works in the fluff to have a similarity of rules to show this we do after all play a game that is driven from the story of the warhammer world.

"The book is only accessible through our Lord choices" its basically saying if your mono-god pick a greater daemon if your mix god take mix units.

"Reign of Comedy" do people relies this is the gods doing this as in beings of such power who can change the fate of almost everything at there own whim and not give a damn who it effects why should there not be a random table like this or a dumb downed one like people keep asking for there gods they do as they please we are the minions who must accept this.

"The Gifts" this is better if they are lazy duplication of BRB weapons because if you was going to take that BRB weapon why not just take the one in the daemon book roll a table and if you got the better thing from the roll take that instead I call it a addition to what I wanted wile other army's are stuck with having just that weapon without the chance of getting something better.

"It doesn't take a games designer" that is true what you say here but you forgot both books was done by 2 different people 40k was Phil Kelly and fantasy was matt ward this means they have 2 view points to follow on how things should act of course they had guidelines because the books are very similar and as I put out we don't know the reasons for the values of how each model is placed at but playing the game you can't just think because of your perception of how you use a model that your ruling of the points cost is correct to say someone else's it is just what it is accept it or just leave no point complaining over something that can't be changed.

 Kaligoth wrote:
"Background does not equal game rules." this made me facepalm... There has to be a similarity to how the army works in the fluff to have a similarity of rules to show this we do after all play a game that is driven from the story of the warhammer world.

The rules should be inspired by the backstory yes, but not go to extremes. Our BSB/IP rules are too extreme atm - especially since Warriors don't have to put up any similar kind of BS.
The BSB especially is rendered even more useless for us since only the Nurgle Herald is a worthwhile investment to carry it. The others are simply too easy to kill with even basic S3 rank-and-file.

 Kaligoth wrote:
"The book is only accessible through our Lord choices" its basically saying if your mono-god pick a greater daemon if your mix god take mix units.

"Reign of Comedy" do people relies this is the gods doing this as in beings of such power who can change the fate of almost everything at there own whim and not give a damn who it effects why should there not be a random table like this or a dumb downed one like people keep asking for there gods they do as they please we are the minions who must accept this.

Or else they could have just put the Reign of Comedy in the Shooting phase, where it essentially belongs... and wouldn't double junk-punch the Daemon player on bad rolls...
And why do our Fantasy Instruments suddenly stop working properly? Not having the re-rolls for matching instruments/God storms was just Ward being incompetent.

As for the Book, it's a mediocre item at best and not worth 75pts. Maybe 55 - 65pts, but we're still not talking about if being equal to the +1 'free' DD gift, or even items like a Dispel Scroll or the godly Book of Hoeth which is 20pts less than this.
Plus it's competing for space alongside the incredibly superior Eternal Beatstick, which is the top choice for all the Greaters bar the 'Thirster.

 Kaligoth wrote:
"The Gifts" this is better if they are lazy duplication of BRB weapons because if you was going to take that BRB weapon why not just take the one in the daemon book roll a table and if you got the better thing from the roll take that instead I call it a addition to what I wanted wile other army's are stuck with having just that weapon without the chance of getting something better.

No, just no. We outright give up on 75% of the game's magic items. This includes the ability to buy standard character kit such as a 4++, decent armour saves on very expensive Heroes/Lords, handy toolkit items like OTS, and/or game-changers/savers such as the humble Dispel Scroll.
And what do we get for this sacrifice? 1 table that's admittedly very good (Lesser Gifts), 1 table that's extremely limited and fairly 'meh' (Exalted), and 1 table that's outright poor due to the lazy duplication and inability to combine with anything on Heroes. (Greater Gifts)

Sure, Nurgle characters are great, but it's not because of their Gifts, rather, they simply have the statline to make-up for the clusterfeth that is our Gifts tables! Greaters work well thanks to (mostly) great spell lores & the E.Blade's existence.
Non-Nurgle Heralds however are just too flimsy, while the Prince is just plain crap due to the inability to fine tune him with proper Magic Items. (for what, typically 40-50 extra pts, you can take a Greater Daemon!)

There should have been NO! duplication of BRB Magic Weapons in our Gifts tables, especially with the added gut shot of our Fantasy tables lacking any kind of organisation which makes it all but impossible to gain any kind of additional protection for our characters.
And this on top of the typical added "Daemons tax" we pay on numerous Magic Weapon options...

 Kaligoth wrote:
"It doesn't take a games designer" that is true what you say here but you forgot both books was done by 2 different people 40k was Phil Kelly and fantasy was matt ward this means they have 2 view points to follow on how things should act of course they had guidelines because the books are very similar and as I put out we don't know the reasons for the values of how each model is placed at but playing the game you can't just think because of your perception of how you use a model that your ruling of the points cost is correct to say someone else's it is just what it is accept it or just leave no point complaining over something that can't be changed.

Yes, it's quite clear that Ward screwed us over yet again... only this time, he did it by giving a flying rodent's gak about giving us a decently quality book instead of a steaming buffet of over powered options.

If you want to make blood letters 12 points, why stop there? Make them S5 again! Then you can use the 90 you obviously have lying around, and you can go back to winning games without skill again.

Seriously. We get it. You dislike the book. You aren't being forced to use it. If you choose to, stop this griping.

I have attempted to give a positive view point on the DoC book unfortunately Experiment 626 you are far to blinded by the factor of being in competitive games to think outside meta builds to try and make you see the positive side and have started to make yourself jaded its like in 40k if people have this mind set you might as well just spend your money on tau or elder.

This is what GW busyness model is If the models that are populer have already sold then the next edition they will lower the strengths of current popular models and boost models that normally don't get played because then people need to buy thease models. To change this you need to hold your ground find your own way of making things better without having to change the rules but think how you can use something in a way that is not normally used if more people had a mindset like this they would not need to buy thease models and then it would force GW to come up with another way on there busyness model i dont know make us some damn plastic greater daemons .

Advocates thinking outside the box when it comes to playing Chaos Daemons.

Plays Mono Nurgle.

Even nurgle needs to change his plagues and poxis up every so often now give nurgle a hug eldarain

 Eldarain wrote:
Advocates thinking outside the box when it comes to playing Chaos Daemons.

Plays Mono Nurgle.

Hey. I play pure slaanesh and khorne! Without any wizards! In a competitive setting! Take that detractors! I win most games!

Thedarkavenger there are people who believe if its not a top tier army they believe it can't win competitive plays also I play mono nurgle without epi because I believe you can win without him and I follow the personality of nurgle himself accept things the way they are but make them better with a positive attitude other then follow that bird brain and expect change

 Kaligoth wrote:
Thedarkavenger there are people who believe if its not a top tier army they believe it can't win competitive plays also I play mono nurgle without epi because I believe you can win without him and I follow the personality of nurgle himself accept things the way they are but make them better with a positive attitude other then follow that bird brain and expect change

Or there's some who don't care if their army is top tier, but rather is it fun to play with/against... mono Tzeentch is anything but that right now, plus the fact that my two favourite models/units are so badly overcosted right now they're next to useless.

Wait mono tzeentch is useless... wtf dude? ok you have some of the most powerful units in the book and your complaining? Lets look at some.

Your lords have a nasty stateline that can ruin someone day and they fly with dominating the magic phase.

Your Hero's can boost the power of your horrors by giving them a bonus to there spells power.

Your core gives you more spell dice and you have a dominating magic phase

Your Special have range and there skirmishers so they make a great blockade unit wile each unit can do D6 multiple shots at BS 4 and BS 5 for pyrocaster and having a fast unit like screamers that can go for the siege weapons wile cutting up anything that gets in the way.

Your Rare is a flying chariot that can fire wile moving...

Every unit I have mentioned has a use it might be random and unpredictable but that's how tzeentch is in the fluff his personality change's so much to the point of random if you cant accept that then its not tzeentch that is useless its someone whos picky and wants chaos to become somthing it was never intended to be.

I love running a tzeentch based army. at 2.4k it's all tz but 2 khannon and 4 crushers.

Screamers are amazing. hit like ogres, but faster and less wounds, but ward save. fly over is good at killing chaff and then charging war machines turn 2.

Horrors can win combat, once they blast a bit.

Loc is awesome.

the +1s loci is pretty neat, can also put blue scibes in unit for s5 lore of fire or s5 comet, s7 chain lightning ect.

The extra blue horrors one I've tried and it has won me 2 games,

Not tried random S.

Flamers I've tried, they are only good for killing chaff, and are a liability in combat for handing out regen. maybe if they had scouts.

Flaming chariot is pretty cool. Does put out 9 s4 attacks in combat, put one into flank of a treasoned halbihorde, and took it off the table in one go. that blue horror upgrade is pretty useful even more so in a Karious list with D&D and the -1ld heavens debuff floating in your tool box.

I do well top 15% placing usually with this format. plus it's fun.

I'm playing a wacky 3k event next month where I can use scrolls of binding, so rolling with 2 phoenixes in addition to my mostly TZ and khorne bros.

That is why you use flamers on low Toughness models like hordes of zombies or skaven slaves you can dedicate them to remove them types of units in deployment if you see a huge block just put flamers in front so they can widdle them down and stop them charging into your important units remember there turning arc is going to be a lot bigger so it lowers there overall movement if they try to avoid the flamers.

To counter this regen issue give the horrors the banner of Eternal Flame make the unit 10 wide 3 ranks with transmogrification (Changling comes with this if you want a hero made for melee combat) or change locus and watch them go nuts on the unit that no longer gets regen also blue horrors ignore regen because they are done at the end of combat

As for the strength one that is to make horrors a good unit for a charge if for example your horror unit is in a acceptable charge range and you roll a 4-6 charge and deal crazy damage if you roll a 1-3 just keep doing what you have been with them I would advice this with a horde formation because of the 3 rank supporting attacks this is a alternative to the transmogrification locus.

 Kaligoth wrote:
Wait mono tzeentch is useless... wtf dude? ok you have some of the most powerful units in the book and your complaining? Lets look at some.

Your lords have a nasty stateline that can ruin someone day and they fly with dominating the magic phase.

The Keeper & GUO are much better than the LoC by virtue of better spell lore access, (Slaanesh, Death & Shadows are arguably the game's best spell lores), and being equally capable or outright better in combat.
The Chicken is decent, but the odd time I take him, it's never to be a mage, but rather to be a purely beatstick character because he's honestly just a purely average mage, which is frankly ridiculous for the avatar of the God of freaking magic! Give him the E.Blade though, and suddenly the supposedly "best wizard" of the Greaters is clubbing Bloodthirsters to death!

But then, I'd much rather use the Daemon Prince as I much prefer the model and their backstories. Unfortunately, our Prince is god awful.

 Kaligoth wrote:
Your Hero's can boost the power of your horrors by giving them a bonus to there spells power.

Tzheralds are good, but like all Heralds they suffer from being overall very bland characters due to the limited options.

 Kaligoth wrote:
Your core gives you more spell dice and you have a dominating magic phase

Horrors are only truly functional when you play the spell manipulation game to ensure they end up with Gateway/Firestorm.
Compare them to the other 'wizard units' that have followed. Would it really have been too much to just give them a basic pair of spells such as say Pink Fire + Searing Doom, or both Blue & Pink Fire, or even Blue Fire + Fireball?!
I *want* to be encouraged to take units of 18 or 27! Instead I get pushed towards min/maxing 10-15 strong units in order to ensure two of those units are borderline OP while the others are just expensive speed bumps.

Mind, the very worst aspect of Horrors are that the models are gakking impossible to ever rank up properly! (even years of Tetris mastery cannot solve these guys...)

 Kaligoth wrote:
Your Special have range and there skirmishers so they make a great blockade unit wile each unit can do D6 multiple shots at BS 4 and BS 5 for pyrocaster and having a fast unit like screamers that can go for the siege weapons wile cutting up anything that gets in the way.

Flamers are among the game's worst units. For 240pts you get a unit that will struggle to kill a 5 man Fast Cav unit and get smashed in combat by pretty much anything bar the likes of Chaos Hounds. By the time you add on all the modifiers for moving & shooting, long range *and* multiple shots, you're consistently looking at 6's to-hit.
Add in Warpflame and a crippling unit cap of only 6 and these guys are plain awful. Their only redeeming factor currently is to take 3 of them as a 120pts 'tax' to give Exalted Flamers the Skirmisher rule, which honestly feels really, really dirty due to the Exalted Flamer being so woefully undercosted.

Screamers are okay, but struggle big time against their intended targets (due to being susceptible to Stomps) and are instead fulfilling a role that the army has no trouble with in hunting down chaff/war machines.

 Kaligoth wrote:
Your Rare is a flying chariot that can fire wile moving...

And is incredibly fragile to boot, which balances it quite well. It also has a nasty habbit of misfiring itself to death.

 Kaligoth wrote:
Every unit I have mentioned has a use it might be random and unpredictable but that's how tzeentch is in the fluff his personality change's so much to the point of random if you cant accept that then its not tzeentch that is useless its someone whos picky and wants chaos to become somthing it was never intended to be.

I don't mind the random, rather it's the overall dysfunction combined with some glaring overcosting, (looking at you DP & Flamers!), and the inability to really dominate the one phase the army should be amazing at.
A bad magic phase, especially early game is crippling to Tzeentch due to the bulk of it's damage potential being limited to magical artillery & some shooting.

Add to that a local filled to the brim with Elves who eat Daemons in general, especially Tzeentch. (and poor Khorne too...)

Experiment 626 wrote:

- Reign of Chaos moves to the Shooting Phase
No more overly clunky magic phase with way too much dice rolling & additional crazy effects potentially sodomising one player. Besides, it's not like Daemons have an exactly time consuming shooting phase anyways, and all the 'angry god throwing crap at you' results work like shooting attack anyways!
Also, the 2 result which forces the entire army to take Instability Tests - allow the General's IP rule to work to represent his/its will being strong enough to keep some control over their lesser servents. (near army-wide Ld7 really, really hurts!)
Finally, like in 40k, let Instruments provide a re-roll for the matching god-storm results. (ie: each Instrument of Khorne on the table gives a re-roll on the 'Khorne's Wrath' result.)

Oh man, you're right. All that clunky magic phase shenanigans. Man, I couldn't handle rolling all those dice.

Trolling aside, I thought the Inspiring presense rule worked for Leadership tests, which is what Demonic Instability is. Which is also why you can reroll it with a BSB.


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 Peasant wrote:
I'm fine with the rules as they are but tzeentch got screwed with its magic..worst lore in the game.

Uhhh...No? Metal is extremely good against certain tough armies, and decent against most others. Anything with a good armor save dies, and you can buff your other stuff. Plus, what Metal doesn't do, Lore of Tzeentch can take care of.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaligoth wrote:
Wait mono tzeentch is useless... wtf dude? ok you have some of the most powerful units in the book and your complaining? Lets look at some.

Your lords have a nasty stateline that can ruin someone day and they fly with dominating the magic phase.

Your Hero's can boost the power of your horrors by giving them a bonus to there spells power.

Your core gives you more spell dice and you have a dominating magic phase

Umm, dominating Magic Phase? Yeah, with my TK maybe. I've had bad luck regularly of rolling a 4 or 5 for magic, and getting no channels. You have a similar magic phase as everyone else, only if you roll low, you also get screwed over more.

And pure Tzeentch is really good. Heck, one of the best players in the area near me apparently uses nothing but tzeentch and wins. It's the sheer mobility of the army that tops everyone else. Flyers, Skirmishers, the like.

To be fair, on its own, the book does have terrible internal balance. But that's in a bubble situation. And warhammer is anything but. When the book came out, the king was nurgle+cannons with a combat chicken. Then the elf armies came out, which meant khorne came in with ambushing flesh hounds and the like. And now slaanesh and tzeentch are coming in, due to the low toughness and asf abundance. The book is proving to be well balanced in the meta.

All the complaints I here are just bad players looking to shift the blame.