Egypt death toll rises to 525

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**Frazzled**

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/10244413/Egypt-death-toll-rises-to-525-as-Britain-summons-Egyptian-ambassador.html
(actually easier to read on site)

Egypt death toll rises to 525 as Britain summons Egyptian ambassador
Britain has summoned the Egyptian ambassador for a meeting as the death toll from Wednesday's attack on pro-Morsi supporters rose to 525.
.
By Ruth Sherlock, Cairo
11:34AM BST 15 Aug 2013
The Foreign Office said it had summoned the Ambassador to express its "deep concern" at the violence.

London urged the authorities to act with "the greatest restraint", the Foreign Office said on Thursday.

"We called in the Egyptian ambassador to express our deep concern at the escalating violence and unrest in Egypt," a spokesman said.

Egyptian ambassadors to France and Germany were also called to similar meetings on Thursday.

Francois Hollande, the French president, said that "everything must be done to avoid a civil war," and conveyed France's "great concern over the tragic events."

Guido Westerwelle, the German foreign minister, told their Egyptian representative of the government's position "in no uncertain terms," a spokeswoman for the foreign ministry said.

Egypt's new military rulers declared a state of emergency late on Wednesday, imposing a military curfew on the country's major cities, after security forces broke up Islamist protest camps in the worst bout of violence since the 2011 revolution.

At least 421 civilians were killed throughout the country, the Egyptian health ministry said, plus 43 police officers.

Bodies of protesters who died in clashes the day before, at al-Imene mosque, Cairo (EPA)

Francois Hollande, the French president, said that "everything must be done to avoid a civil war" in Egypt.

Mr Hollande called for an immediate halt to the bloodshed, his office said in a statement, echoing strong international condemnation of Wednesday's day of violence.

On Thursday morning those death tolls were continuing to rise, as volunteers began counting up corpses that had been stored in mosques next Rabaa al-Adawiyeh, the central protest camp for supporters of ousted President Mohammed Morsi.

At least 70 bodies were lined up, wrapped in white cotton shrouds at the al-Imam mosque in Nasr city.

Egypt's new rulers remained defiant in face of international condemnation of the attacks.

Hazem al-Beblawi, Egypt's interim prime minister, praised the police for their "self-restraint."

An Egyptian walks among the debris of a protest camp in Nahda Square, Giza, Cairo (AP)

Many of the country's newspapers also praised the onslaught. The daily Al-Akhbar newspaper carried the headline: "The nightmare of the Brotherhood is gone". Others published photos of Morsi supporters brandishing weapons and throwing stones at police during the previous day's confrontations.

The United Arab Emirates has also expressed support for the Egyptian government.

"The UAE ... reaffirms its understanding of the sovereign measures taken by the Egyptian government after having exercised maximum self-control," the UAE foreign ministry said in a statement.

The rise of Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt since 2011 has unsettled most Gulf Arab states, including the UAE, which feared it would embolden Islamists at home.

Days after the army ousted Morsi last month, the UAE offered $3 billion in support for Egypt's economy.

A woman searches for useful items near burned posters of Egypt's ousted President Mohammed Morsi in Nahda Square, near Cairo University (AP)

Egyptian security forces moved against the protesters after Western and Gulf Arab mediators, including the UAE and Qatar, failed to broker a diplomatic solution to the standoff.

Meanwhile Qatar, a long-time supporter of the Muslim Brotherhood government, condemned the bloodshed and said the best way for Egypt to resolve the crisis was through dialogue.

"Our condemnation came after days of communication to try to reach a peaceful settlement through dialogue among all parties and therefore we were surprised by what happened," said Khaled al-Attiya, the Qatari foreign minister.

Europe's leading powers, along with Iran, Qatar and Turkey, strongly denounced the use of force by the interim government.

Catherine Ashton, the EU foreign affairs chief, has urged Egypt's rulers to end a month-long state of emergency imposed in the wake of the violence.

A man walks inside the burnt Rabaa Adawiya mosque (EPA)

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey's prime minister, said that the violence in Egypt required an urgent discussion at the UN Security Council.

Washington, which provides Egypt with $1.3 billion in annual military aid, "strongly condemns" the violence against the protesters and opposed the state of emergency.

The Brotherhood urged Egyptians on Thursday to take to the streets in their thousands to denounce the "massacre."

"This is not an attempt to disperse, but a bloody attempt to crush all voices of opposition to the military coup," said Gehad al-Haddad, a Brotherhood spokesman, on Twitter.

Mohamed Ibrahim, the Egyptian interior minister, however said that no more protests would be tolerated.

Tanks have been brought onto the streets across the capital, and Cairo is set to impose the military curfew again on Thursday evening.

**Ensis Ferrae**

I fail to see why our nations 'need' to do anything here.... so long as the civil strife/war does not turn into genocide, we have nothing to intervene over.

I mean, don't get me wrong, it is a sad state of affairs that we find egyptEgypt in at the moment, and hopefully this stuff gets resolved quickly.

**Jihadin**

I'm suppose to shed a tear over the Muslim Brotherhood?

**SlaveToDorkness**

I can't wait to hear where our "Red Line" is on this one.

**Experiment 626**

Jihadin wrote:
I'm suppose to shed a tear over the Muslim Brotherhood?

+1
Who cares if the government forces fight back and kill off a bunch of ultra conservative Islamists who'd love nothing better than to turn around and turn the entire western world to ash because we don't follow sharia law, worship false idols and let everyone practice their own religion freely without fear of being burned/tortured/murdered for it?

I'm sure those evil Christians must have set fire to their own churches just to make the Brotherhood look bad, because they'd never try to incite violence against minorities.

**CloudRider**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
I'm suppose to shed a tear over the Muslim Brotherhood?

+1
Who cares if the government forces fight back and kill off a bunch of ultra conservative Islamists who'd love nothing better than to turn around and turn the entire western world to ash because we don't follow sharia law, worship false idols and let everyone practice their own religion freely without fear of being burned/tortured/murdered for it?

I'm sure those evil Christians must have set fire to their own churches just to make the Brotherhood look bad, because they'd never try to incite violence against minorities.

Someone give this man a cigar.
Golden, my friend, absolute Gold.

**Mr. Burning**

In the west, democracies overthrow you!

**Experiment 626**

CloudRider wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
I'm suppose to shed a tear over the Muslim Brotherhood?

+1
Who cares if the government forces fight back and kill off a bunch of ultra conservative Islamists who'd love nothing better than to turn around and turn the entire western world to ash because we don't follow sharia law, worship false idols and let everyone practice their own religion freely without fear of being burned/tortured/murdered for it?

I'm sure those evil Christians must have set fire to their own churches just to make the Brotherhood look bad, because they'd never try to incite violence against minorities.

Someone give this woman a cigar.
Golden, my friend, absolute Gold.

Fixed that for you!

And right on the spot as ever, good 'ol Obama yet again completely missing the real issues and doing what the leftist loonies do best - pander to the poor Islamists instead of stand up to them: http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/obama-puts-egypt-on-notice-after-clashes-kill-525-2

**whembly**

Experiment 626 wrote:
CloudRider wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
I'm suppose to shed a tear over the Muslim Brotherhood?

+1
Who cares if the government forces fight back and kill off a bunch of ultra conservative Islamists who'd love nothing better than to turn around and turn the entire western world to ash because we don't follow sharia law, worship false idols and let everyone practice their own religion freely without fear of being burned/tortured/murdered for it?

I'm sure those evil Christians must have set fire to their own churches just to make the Brotherhood look bad, because they'd never try to incite violence against minorities.

Someone give this woman a cigar.
Golden, my friend, absolute Gold.

Fixed that for you!

And right on the spot as ever, good 'ol Obama yet again completely missing the real issues and doing what the leftist loonies do best - pander to the poor Islamists instead of stand up to them: http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/obama-puts-egypt-on-notice-after-clashes-kill-525-2

Hey... I'm usually first in line to bash Obama... but, what's he supposed to do?

To me? This is a civil war in the making... a gak ton coptic churches were burned down over the last week.

**Experiment 626**

whembly wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
CloudRider wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
I'm suppose to shed a tear over the Muslim Brotherhood?

+1
Who cares if the government forces fight back and kill off a bunch of ultra conservative Islamists who'd love nothing better than to turn around and turn the entire western world to ash because we don't follow sharia law, worship false idols and let everyone practice their own religion freely without fear of being burned/tortured/murdered for it?

I'm sure those evil Christians must have set fire to their own churches just to make the Brotherhood look bad, because they'd never try to incite violence against minorities.

Someone give this woman a cigar.
Golden, my friend, absolute Gold.

Fixed that for you!

And right on the spot as ever, good 'ol Obama yet again completely missing the real issues and doing what the leftist loonies do best - pander to the poor Islamists instead of stand up to them: http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/obama-puts-egypt-on-notice-after-clashes-kill-525-2

Hey... I'm usually first in line to bash Obama... but, what's he supposed to do?

To me? This is a civil war in the making... a gak ton coptic churches were burned down over the last week.

Well, keep in mind that this potential civil war is being entirely instigated by the Islamists and their actions:
- Morsi was an idiot who started putting very narrow-minded & selfish Islamic ideals ahead of his country's real needs such as fixing the crippled economy and protecting the rights of minorities being freely targets by religious extremists.
He lost all creadibility the moment he did this. The majority of Egyptians took to the streets and demanded he step down. In a western country, any leader acting the way Morsi did would have simply been arrested by the state police force for corruption and working against the public good.

- Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood supporters got all pissy when the army stepped in and did the right thing.
So they took to the streets in turn, calling for their supporters to band together and fight to the death if necessary to re-instate an incompetent leader who'd only support their own views.
Note that most of the clashes have been instigated by the Brotherhood, either by the clerics calling for violence or Brotherhood leaders themselves working as agitators.
The Brotherhood is also accused of supporting hardline militants and inciting violence in other cities outside of the capital to boot.

- The Egyptian government gave the protesters a deadline to move out of their camps which were purposefully set-up in places that would disrupt local business/tourists.
The Brotherhood not only shot back with clear, "put-up-or-shut-up" attitude towards police & military security forces, literally daring them to make a move, but they also brought in more and more women and children to the camps to act as shields. (a common tactic among Islamists - look at Hamas in the Gaza Strip who enjoy setting up their mortars & rocket launching sites within playgrounds in order to make any counter-attack look like the senseless laughter of innocents...)
Plus, there's video evidence of Brotherhood protesters firing upon police forces. We don't know who fired the first lethal shot, but clearly, the Brotherhood are not interest in "peaceful protest" considering they were not only betting on a fight, but obviously preparing for one with weapons of their own.

Obama shouldn't be doing such an instant 'quick-180' on his real allies in Egypt. The Brotherhood are the main threat to Egypt's future peace and his pandering by instantly condemning the government forces and laying 100% blame on them is simply playing into the Brotherhood's mentality of always being the poor victims of the hateful west. (and encouraging them to continue doing so!)

Sure what happened is an awful and it can't be allowed to continue.
But at the very least, he should be following Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird's example of basically laying blame for the massacres & civil violence at the feet of both sides and calling on all parties to stop the killings and at least try to work things out in a civil manner.

**Easy E**

Let's just let things play out a bit before we start getting all crazy.

On the fac eof it though, the US is in a tough place. On one hand we value and export democracy. On the other we know democracy in this case will bring a conservative, Islamic government that is not in our best interests. What exactly should hte US do to secure its own interests?

**Frazzled**

Get out as quickly as possible.

**Wyrmalla**

Bets on the military taking over and saying, "this is why you don't get nice things"? Unless the current government handles this well it'll probably either result in another civil war or prolonged terrorist attacks by a minority of the opposition that have been getting cushy with Hamas. =/

**Dreadclaw69**

Frazzled wrote:
Get out as quickly as possible.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner

If we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, then I say we don't. Same result, less effort, less expense, less chance of any of our servicemen getting harmed.

**Frazzled**

Dreadclaw has the way of it.

**Dark Apostle 666**

What a mess - Although it seems that those frothing mad "Brotherhood" zealots seem to be agitating. But they seem happy to die for their cause, so I've no sympathy for them.

I won't say that the Egyptian army wiping the Brotherhood out is a good result for humanity as a whole.

What I will say is that western involvement seems a very bad idea, because this has all the hallmarks of a long, drawn-out fragfest.

**NeedleOfInquiry**

Easy E wrote:
Let's just let things play out a bit before we start getting all crazy.

On the face of it though, the US is in a tough place. On one hand we value and export democracy. On the other we know democracy in this case will bring a conservative, Islamic government that is not in our best interests. What exactly should the US do to secure its own interests?

On the other we know democracy in this case will bring a group of terrorists that will use all the weapons of Egypt to destroy America and her allies.

Fixed it for you...

Egypt, in case you did not know it, has the following types of cruise missiles:

AS-5 Kelt with 400km range and 1,000kg payload.
Harpoon with 120km range and 220kg payload.
AS-1 Kennel with 100km range and 1,000kg payload.
HY-2 Silkworm with 95km range and 513kg payload.
Otomat Mk1 with 80km range and 210kg payload.
FL-1 with 95km range and 513kg payload.
Exocet (AM-39) with 65km range and 165kg payload.
SS-N-2a Styx with 43km range and 513kg payload.

Egypt has the following combat aircraft capable of carrying chemical warheads:

40 F-16A/B (34 in service), approximately 177 F-16C/D, 32 F-4E Phantoms (25 in service), 18 Mirage 2000, 59 Mirage-5 (includes 6 Mirage 5DR), 42 Alpha Jet and Alpha Jet MS-2, 150 F-7 Shenyang/Mig-21 MF, 44 F-6 Shenyang/FT-6 .

Egyptian ground systems include artillery and rocket launchers, notably 721 FROG-7 artillery rockets with 12 launchers, which have a 70km range and carry a 450kg warhead, and 100 SAQR-80 rockets with 24 launchers, which have an 80km range and 200kg payload.

And of course we know for a fact that Egypt have mustard gas and nerve gas packaged in payloads and shells usable by the above weapon systems:

We know this from guys that have defected and because Egypt has used mustard gas in the past in the Yemeni civil war.

This is the big times....The Muslim brotherhood believes in one man, one vote, one fething time. Once they are firmly in power there is never another election because now it is a caliphate. I for one would rather not give a terrorist organization the above weapons.

The brotherhood was formed by Hasan al-Banna. His role model and hero was a European named Adolph Hitler and their admitted creed is “God is our objective, the Koran is our Constitution, the Prophet is our leader, struggle [jihad] is our way, and death for the sake of God is the highest of our aspirations.”

These are the people Mr Obama and Ms Clinton want to run Egypt and control the Suez Canel....they are terrorists.. The US Navy brass have been ordered to keep their mouths shut, got to wonder what the President is worried that they might say...

My opinion is my own and obviously not the same as Mr Obama and the left..... none of them will be dying for their mistakes so I guess it is easier for them to make uninformed decisions in areas they should stay out of.

**Experiment 626**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Get out as quickly as possible.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner
If we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, then I say we don't. Same result, less effort, less expense, less chance of any of our servicemen getting harmed.

While it's probably a good idea to pull any western military assets out of the frying pan, I'd like to think there's still a decent role for our diplomats to play as mediators between the two sides.

**whembly**

Yeesh... it's up to 638...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2013/08/15/egypt-morsi-violence-protests-coup.html

**Ketara**

So. Dictatorship overthrown, democracy restored. Except the majority of Egyptians democratically vote for a party that does not believe in democracy. Civil war ensues between remnants of previous dictatorship and the current would be dictatorship.

Meanwhile, advocates of democracy do not really want democracy either, because it is the democratic wish of the majority to not have democracy(hence voting for an anti-democratic party). Thus, advocates of democracy are actually in favour of enforcing a system(democracy) that the majority do not want. Meaning that the advocates of democracy are not really in favour of democracy either.

Meanwhile, my local government gets on with ruling, and my local church gets on with holding its services without being burnt down. And I can hold a placard up in London without getting run over by a tank.

There is absolutely no reason for us to have anything to do with the place.

**Dreadclaw69**

Experiment 626 wrote:
While it's probably a good idea to pull any western military assets out of the frying pan, I'd like to think there's still a decent role for our diplomats to play as mediators between the two sides.

I'm sure we could find some common ground between the Muslim Brotherhood would-be dictatorship, and a possible military dictatorship.

**djones520**

Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
While it's probably a good idea to pull any western military assets out of the frying pan, I'd like to think there's still a decent role for our diplomats to play as mediators between the two sides.

I'm sure we could find some common ground between the Muslim Brotherhood would-be dictatorship, and a possible military dictatorship.

Except the military has already shown that they will put power back into the hands of the people. The Muslim brotherhood tried acting outside of the bounds of their constitution, and that is why this happened.

**Bromsy**

Yeah, so Morsi got what, 51% of the vote, other guy got 48%? That is a pretty big segment of the country that doesn't want him and obviously (also based on the mass protests) doesn't want to live under the Muslim Brotherhood and sharia law. I'd rather have the military step in and maybe give them another chance to set up a secular constitution than let a tiny majority screw over the other half of the country that doesn't agree with them. I seriously doubt anyone else is going to set up a system that puts the screws to the muslim fundamentalists anywhere near as hard as they would to everyone else, given the chance.

**djones520**

I recall something like only about 1/10th of the countries population was really backing the Muslim Brotherhood.

**Jihadin**

The Egyptian military might as well throw in their own PR teams into the mix. Granted most of the shoot out happening mostly with their LEO's with support from the military. Military might as well emplace the LEO branch into their daily operation...like we have US teams embedded with the ANA units and just crack down on them. I say they get a good handle on it within 30 days.

edit

Their PR teams acting against the Muslim Brotherhood vocal out pouring on the abuse their suffering.

**Breotan**

There's a video where the "protestors" pushed an armored vehicle off an overpass and killed at least some of the people inside. They are also burning Christian churches and attacking everyone they don't like.

I say, stay out and let Egypt carve out this cancer that's killing them from within.

**Ketara**

djones520 wrote:
Dreadclaw69 wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
While it's probably a good idea to pull any western military assets out of the frying pan, I'd like to think there's still a decent role for our diplomats to play as mediators between the two sides.

I'm sure we could find some common ground between the Muslim Brotherhood would-be dictatorship, and a possible military dictatorship.

Except the military has already shown that they will put power back into the hands of the people.

Errr....the military were behind the last dictator, Mubarak.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

I'm no expert on Egypt, but there are a lot of ignorant comments on this discussion.

I would be the last person to defend the MB, but this look at the situation from their point of view. For 40+ years, the country has been a military dictatorship and it's now an economic basketcase. Did people naively think that the MB could fix this overnight, that strong institutions such as courts, judiciary and the civil service would appear from nowhere?

When the American Revolution ended, the country was an absolute mess (still is

) and it took years to get it on an even keel. People seem to forget that about democracies born from revolutions are messy affairs.

I sympathise with people wanting American to back off, but any student of the history of the British empire will tell you that getting bogged down for years in the middle east for no gain is part and parcel of being a global superpower!

**reds8n**

Breotan wrote:
There's a video where the "protestors" pushed an armored vehicle off an overpass and killed at least some of the people inside.

Driver error ( panic one assumes) caused the fall, apparently.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2395494/Egypt-crisis-Armoured-car-pushed-bridge-angry-protesters-actually-reversed-edge.html

**Easy E**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I'm no expert on Egypt, but there are a lot of ignorant comments on this discussion.

Straight up truth!

It is not inthe interests of the United States to complete withdraw into an isolationist stance ala DJJones and frazs idea. We already tried that in the 1920's. It didn;t work out that well either.

However, I agree that this is not a military problem, but a siplomatic one. That is the only U.S. effort that should be expended, political power and diplomacy.

I thought some of you Righties woudl care a bit more about the only* country that has signed a peace treaty with our friends in Israel. Don;t their interests matter to you.

*= I'm not sur eif this is true anymore, but they were the first.