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ZebioLizard2 wrote:Also, that legion's don't exist is a retcon that not even the story pays attention to at times,

I hate all those retcons that were written in the 2nd Edition Chaos Codex, lol. What's a retcon is if certain fluff sources suggest that the Legions still exist. Not that they dissolved in the first place.

However, you have to look no further than the 6th Ed Chaos Codex to see that they haven't retconned that at all. I haven't looked at the BL supplement yet, to be fair. So it's impossible some poor author got confused when writing it and made some bad fluff. It isn't like that's out of the ordinary.

according to the rest it's a process that's only gotten worse overtime to the point where they need individual gene-seed to continue the process, whereas the emporer didn't need to harvest it from the space marines in the field. Now they have to in order to continue the process and it's only gotten worse.

You're confused. The Space Marines have to harvest gene seed from their existing Marines because that is a control measure the Imperium uses to limit the ability of Space Marine Chapters to expand their numbers beyond the prescribed amounts. There's nothing inherently inferior about the geneseed harvesting process, and geneseed recovery was still a practice in 30K. It was just that there was less emphasis on it because access to geneseed for Marine-making was unrestricted.

As a chaos player, how can you possibly think we have tons of options? You have a hard time deciding how to outfit your land raider or demon engines? You mull over wich transport to use to get your guys into close combat? You debate wich mark to give your oblits, termies or lord? Or lets get crazy, which cult troop are you going to use? Please.

You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.

Also where do you get the idea that heresy era marines were inferior? Im calling BS on that.

It was the whole reason for the Codex Astartes in the first place (which Guilliman began before the Heresy). The Space Marine Legions had no standards for recruiting and training. Most of the Legions were just churning out Space Marines as fast as possible to replace the casualties they were sustaining in the Crusades. As such the quality was variable, and many Legions were using inferior candidates and trying to accelerate or alter the process.

People get confused with the decline of the universe over the ten thousand years it took to get to 40K. But the standards for making Space Marines were codified in 30K, back when everything was still fairly good, and technology hadn't been lost. While some strains of geneseed have deteriorated, the model for making Marines in the Codex Astartes is still the same perfected process created by Guilliman. You know, that guy who had the Legion which was larger than the rest of them, and suffered the fewest casualties during the Crusade, and then proceeded to reconquer the Imperium in seven years after the Traitor Legions tried to topple it.

This stuff is in there. You just have to look for it. And don't get all puffed up about me being a "Space Marine player" who "doesn't understand". I was probably playing Chaos before you saw your first model. Their modern plastics just suck, so I chose to model up regular Space Marines instead for my latest project.

Wave serpents....

You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.

There is a difference between options, and "Effective" options. An obliterator can use a Mark of Slaanesh, not a good idea to use it anyways. A poor option might be an option, but nobody is going to count it as one.

This stuff is in there. You just have to look for it. And don't get all puffed up about me being a "Space Marine player" who "doesn't understand". I was probably playing Chaos before you saw your first model. Their modern plastics just suck, so I chose to model up regular Space Marines instead for my latest project.

"I was a Chaos Space Marine before it was cool."

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.

Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol

Wow, Veteran Sergeant really isn't a fan of the chaos legions... The real issue I have with that entire viewpoint is that the armies we play are so small in comparison to the legions that it's entirely plausible that a group of <100 chaos marines from a legion could stay together. Nobody ever claimed the entire legion was still together, but to imagine that they would dissolve the bonds of brotherhood entirely is a different matter. Or is the squad the only structure that has survived? I mean, why stop at the company level, why don't chaos marines of different marks join in squads together? It's not like there's a rule that specifically prevents that, right?

I'm curious, how much established fluff shows chaos marines working in allied groups of multiple different legions/warbands, and how much of it shows one legion/warband working alone? I can't think of any Black Library books about allied warbands, but I'm pretty sure there are entire series on the Night Lords, Word Bearers, etc. To the contrary, there are plenty of notes in the Space Marine codex that show different chapters working together, but I don't see anyone advocating for mixed-chapter armies. It's a double standard, and a pretty myopic one at that.

PredaKhaine wrote:


Oh, and AP2 Bale Flamers

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.

Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol

If only there were some sort of Loyalist Chapter that couldn't take Librarians...

I would like to second, third, fourth and fifth anyone who said drop pods. Seriously. If you're not going to let us teleport in properly (i.e. with beacons, etc) then at least give us another decent deepstrike option. Especially since our transports kind of suck as well. Plus, I just feel like drop pods are more fun. I realize it's just my personal taste but I really LOVE drop pod assaults (even when they go horrendously wrong) and would enjoy being able to do it with my Chaos Marines.

If only there were some sort of Loyalist Chapter that couldn't take Librarians...

lol Wow! It took three full pages for someone to make this about Templars ...

 Extreaminatus wrote:

What the heck would Khorne do with havocs? Shoot chain axes at the enemy?

And this is why many khorne themed armies fail: Because along the way some people seemed to think that because berserkers are melee troops that ALL forces in a khorne army must be melee focused. Khorne has NEVER had a prohibition against using anything but magic or psychic power. Khonre is just as happy to collect skulls from troops killed with heavy bolters and missile launchers as those killed by chain axe wielding maniacs. Driving around the battlefield in a predator and crushing people under the tracks? Khorne loves that too. My own massive khornate horde has *1* unit of berserkers and a couple dozen units of other types in it. Playing an army that is made up of only berserkers might be amusing as a one off, but is pretty tactically limited and hamstrung for regular usage.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
And make the Land Raider be able to transport 12 models, the loyalist can get 12, why not Chaos? Did they really take that many steroids, or do renegades just downsize all their Land Raiders to fit in with the crowd. It makes no sense at all.

It is all those spiky bits on the armor keeping chaos marines from packing into the land raider as tightly as loyalist marines. A duh...

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Barfolomew wrote:
The biggest problem with Chaos is that GW's perception is that Chaos should be chaotic with lots of options for units which could be meshed together. This problem is that the the fluff emphasizes Chaos being made up of different LEGIONS and each LEGION has different composition and combat methodology. Most of the LEGIONS are a not chaotic mess like the GW's perception.

From a fundamental design concept, GW needs to drop any rule which says "roll a D6 prior to the game/combat/etc. to see what you get. The majority of your players HATE RANDOMNESS.

The fluff is kind of at odds with itself. It is well documented (new Black Legion supplement not withstanding) that the World Eater's collapsed as a legion shortly after the failure at Terra and Horus's death. Without the war to focus on they because focusing on themselves and split into numerous splinter factions. The next most well documented is the thousand sons. Rhubric marines are supposed to be incredibly rare in general and having 2 units of them in your tzeentch aligned force is supposed to be a big deal. Not much has been said about the emperor's children or the deathguard other than a small blurb about original plaguemarines are becoming more rare. The whole concept of them *still* harping on the legions is dumb. The chaos legions haven't really existed as such for generations. It should all be about the warbands and allegiance to the various powers of chaos. Sure berserkers, plague marines and noise marines still exist and more can be created all the time. Rhubric marines are a tough sell though because once they are destroyed it isn't as if there is another source to use to create more of them.

Also what is the point of including "renegades" to the codex if they end up just as limited in equipment and options as those forces that were based on parts from the original legions? Why wouldn't my newly fallen force of marines still have its crusaders and redeemers at their disposal? It just makes zero sense. The book wants to be two distinct entities in the game, but I don't think it ultimately fulfills either of them. :\

ATSKNF is an annoyance to me. It makes no sense that marines can be so completely immune to fear due to their conditioning, but lose that ability even after living in the terrifying environs of the Eye of Terror. If one lives side by side with daemons daily and the insanity that is chaos I can't understand why ATSKNF would just vanish as opposed to getting stronger. My solution, though, is not to give it to chaos marines, but to just remove it completely. It is one of the most broken rules in the game and needs to go.

While I loved the original randomness of chaos back in the day, after thinking about it more I think adding it back in to such an extreme to the current codex was a bad maneuver.

Srkiker

 Skriker wrote:


The fluff is kind of at odds with itself. It is well documented (new Black Legion supplement not withstanding) that the World Eater's collapsed as a legion shortly after the failure at Terra and Horus's death. Without the war to focus on they because focusing on themselves and split into numerous splinter factions. The next most well documented is the thousand sons. Rhubric marines are supposed to be incredibly rare in general and having 2 units of them in your tzeentch aligned force is supposed to be a big deal. Not much has been said about the emperor's children or the deathguard other than a small blurb about original plaguemarines are becoming more rare. The whole concept of them *still* harping on the legions is dumb. The chaos legions haven't really existed as such for generations. It should all be about the warbands and allegiance to the various powers of chaos. Sure berserkers, plague marines and noise marines still exist and more can be created all the time. Rhubric marines are a tough sell though because once they are destroyed it isn't as if there is another source to use to create more of them.

Srkiker

As a Thousand Sons player, I've read pretty much everything on them and never heard anything about rubric marines being specifically rare. Obviously, chaos marines are rare in general, and things like obliterators and terminators are rare for their own reasons, but where are you seeing anything that says that plague marines or rubric marines are getting rarer? I understand that you may assume that due to losses, rubric marines are getting rarer, but I've never seen this reflected in the fluff.

Every time someone mentions that the legions have been split apart into warbands as a defense of the "legions shouldn't be playable armies" argument, they never mention specific sources or circumstances. For instance, the story of the World Eaters breaking into warbands implies that the warbands are still "World Eaters" warbands, they just aren't a unified force any more. No mention is made of them allying with other factions. Obviously Abbadon has rallied many forces under his banner, but the description implies that this is the exception, not the rule. Please prove me wrong, but your arguments are currently lacking support.

That said, if I could add anything to the Chaos codex, it'd be more Daemon Weapons. Whose terrible idea was it to completely remove the ability to give your Chaos Lord a custom daemon weapon, and only have 2 named daemon weapons (one of them which can only be taken by a Khorne character)?

 Skriker wrote:

 Extreaminatus wrote:

What the heck would Khorne do with havocs? Shoot chain axes at the enemy?

And this is why many khorne themed armies fail: Because along the way some people seemed to think that because berserkers are melee troops that ALL forces in a khorne army must be melee focused. Khorne has NEVER had a prohibition against using anything but magic or psychic power. Khonre is just as happy to collect skulls from troops killed with heavy bolters and missile launchers as those killed by chain axe wielding maniacs. Driving around the battlefield in a predator and crushing people under the tracks? Khorne loves that too. My own massive khornate horde has *1* unit of berserkers and a couple dozen units of other types in it. Playing an army that is made up of only berserkers might be amusing as a one off, but is pretty tactically limited and hamstrung for regular usage.

Woah, buddy, slow down. Sarcasm was heavy in that post. BUT, since you brought it back up, let's take a moment to look at the Mark of Khorne and what it's good for: CC. Close Combat. The nitty-gritty. Asses and elbows time. The rough and tumble. Fisticuffs. Rumbles in jungles. Putting up dukes. Giving swirlies. Taking lunch money. Paying the piper. Riding the dragon. Shaving the weasle. Trapping the rabbit. Rocking on down to Electric Avenue.

I may have gotten lost.

Oh yeah. Mark of Khorne, close combat, not great at ranged.

I get that fluff is fun and all that, but this is a Codex discussion. I wish the MoK could be more useful outside of CC, but If you're putting the MoK on havocs, you're wasting points.

That's another thing I'd like to see a new codex: Marks that useful for more than one thing. Cool, MoS units can get +1Init, but I'd pay like, 5 points more for them to also get fleet with that, or the MoK get's +1WS and for however many points more they can re-roll to hit and/or to wound rolls for a turn.

Tycho wrote:
I would like to second, third, fourth and fifth anyone who said drop pods. Seriously. If you're not going to let us teleport in properly (i.e. with beacons, etc) then at least give us another decent deepstrike option. Especially since our transports kind of suck as well. Plus, I just feel like drop pods are more fun. I realize it's just my personal taste but I really LOVE drop pod assaults (even when they go horrendously wrong) and would enjoy being able to do it with my Chaos Marines.

CSM shouldn't use drop pods. Since they are Chaos, they don't like to use tactics. Instead they prefer to charge chaotically across the board headlong into the enemy's guns screaming praises to the Dark Gods. Then they either overrun the enemy, or more likely when enough of them have been killed they break and run away. This is all in the fluff - if you read up about the Great Crusade, you'll find this is how the Sons of Horus won all their battles.

This is why there are no mono-legion warbands in 40k - almost all the original legionaries are dead as a result of these tactics. VotLW is not meant to represent veterans of the Horus Heresy - it is meant to represent recent recruits who have managed to survive a battle or two. After losing yet another battle chewed up by bolter fire for the umpteenth time you really start to hate Space Marines. It's going to be a Looooong War indeed!

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
. VotLW is not meant to represent veterans of the Horus Heresy - it is meant to represent recent recruits who have managed to survive a battle or two. After losing yet another battle chewed up by bolter fire for the umpteenth time you really start to hate Space Marines. It's going to be a Looooong War indeed!

I don't know, the book says that VotLW represents chaos marines who have been fighting the Imperium for centuries or millennia. It also mentions surviving marines of the Horus Heresy.

That said, they really should have put land raiders, or some sort of assault vehicle with a bigger transport capacity. I mean, they let you take marines and zerkers in units of 20, but you have no way of moving them quickly. It doesn't HAVE to be a land raider, but there should definitely be something there.

A good, specialized, anti-air option would have been great.

I also don't understand why some of these things can't be fixed. I mean, there shouldn't be anything stopping GW from releasing a new model with rules attached to it. Hell, they'd make a lot more money.

To the OP:

1) Chaos variants for the Land Raider and Predator. Quite simply I feel they should exist, as most Techpriests who join chaos are the kind who is not dogmatic and doesn't follow the preset pattern. None of them figured out some other guns to put on these platforms or what could be shucked out of the LR to fit more drooling mutant psychopaths? Besides, I really like these tanks, but I'd like to see them a bit different from loyalist versions.

2) Better marks. The mark of Tzeentch is the worst offender, being both a really bad choice and boring. However, it's just the tip of the iceberg. For one I'd like to see more differentiation, not all marked marinesare equally blessed. I guess one way to do this would be tiered marks, so a normal MoN would give +1 T, but HQ and possibly elites can take a greater mark that gives +1 T and FNP (maybe even add a way expensive exalted mark). Alternatively Marks could be more dependant on what unit takes it. Right now the MoK and MoS are useless on havocs. Havocs who dedicate themselves to these gods obviously take their dedication in a different direction, so they should carry marks that support their specialisation.

3) Possessed, propably the other demon units and maybe spawn should be "Demons of..." instead of marked. It feels more fluffy to me and would make these units a bit better.

4) More HQ. Chaos is all about the mighty champions leading the devoted, yet they get as many as everyone else. Maybe split HQ into exhalted and greater champions. You can take up to three greater champions per slot or one exhalted. Sorcerers (up to ml 2), Apostles, Warpsmiths and a 2w downgraded generals are greater and never change the FOC. Generals, DP, SC and Sorcerer Lords (ml 3, 3w) are exalted.

5) Reorganized psychic powers. Night Lords and Tzeentch sorcerers should have access to divination, but I do not see them using biomancy. Players shouldn't feel punished for marking their sorcerers.

6) I'd like to see another cult unit for each god, just to show that the followers of the Chaos Gods aren't one-dimensional. Not all devotees of Slaaneesh are noise m., that's a rather EC specific developement. And I don't think I have to explain to anyone why rubic marines aren't representative of Tzeentchs followers at all.

7) Aknowledge the Legions with a system like the chapter traits. I personaly do not care much for it, but it would at least cut down a little on the wailing, gnashing of teeth and endless complaining.


Which brings me to part two of this post:

Could we please, please, have threads on Chaos that, within the first few posts, do not devolve into a huge shouting match beween those who are discontent with the way Chaos is treated (for whatever reason) and those who feel the complainers are wrong (for whatever reason). Because whenever I look, there already is a very long thread in general dedicated to or at least taken over by that discussion, and yet I can't read any other Chaos thread in general or tactical that aren't constantly derailed by it. Even the other board are afflicted, it crops up in background, in battlereports, even P&M isn't free.

I love Chaos dearly and, yes, I'm not exactly happy with the current codex, but this archives nothing and puts me of even opening threads on the faction. It only feeds the trolls and makes the entire Chaos player base look like the worst bunch of whiners in wargaming.

Tycho wrote:

If only there were some sort of Loyalist Chapter that couldn't take Librarians...

lol Wow! It took three full pages for someone to make this about Templars ...

Yeah, when someone claims that one can't count Chaos Sorcerers because they're not fluffy for a Khorne-themed list you'd better believe I'm going to point out how silly that is. That's not "making the thread about Templars", it's pointing out how insane of an argument it is.

I am disappointed by the lack of 'magic' items if you will. This is one of the things that gives chaos a unique quality, daemon swords and the like. I would have liked a bigger selection to choose from, limited to one per IC or something sensible, but a good selection, like WFB armies get access to.

In relation to the what are CSM and what do they do, I don't think GW have ever set out a consistent picture, with lots of contradictory descriptions over time. I honestly think that CSM vary immensely and have lots of different organisations. It may be that within a given legion they are totally split, some have gone loner, some have diverse warbands, some have stayed set in old pre HH formations. I do suspect that the daemon primarchs keep to themselves mostly but if they do emerge their genechildren will rally to them whatever their current set-up.

It's hard to gauge what the CSM can and cannot do. Can they create new marines from geneseed or are they reliant on defectors? Can they manufacture any equipment or do they need to steal it? Why don't they actually make use of the huge amount of post HH equipment they must have captured over the millennia - no razorbacks, no drop pods, no speeders, no variant landraiders? Is it because they are completely wedded to their pre HH ways, if so why did they break up into warbands? Presumably it's for game balance so GW can differentiate the armies?

They're a movable feast, you can do with them as you wish. They are vague and so you can put whatever spin you like on them.

 somerandomidiot wrote:
As a Thousand Sons player, I've read pretty much everything on them and never heard anything about rubric marines being specifically rare. Obviously, chaos marines are rare in general, and things like obliterators and terminators are rare for their own reasons, but where are you seeing anything that says that plague marines or rubric marines are getting rarer? I understand that you may assume that due to losses, rubric marines are getting rarer, but I've never seen this reflected in the fluff.

Every time someone mentions that the legions have been split apart into warbands as a defense of the "legions shouldn't be playable armies" argument, they never mention specific sources or circumstances. For instance, the story of the World Eaters breaking into warbands implies that the warbands are still "World Eaters" warbands, they just aren't a unified force any more. No mention is made of them allying with other factions. Obviously Abbadon has rallied many forces under his banner, but the description implies that this is the exception, not the rule. Please prove me wrong, but your arguments are currently lacking support.

The new codex is just one place where the growing rarity of the rhubric marines is written. Note I said not much has been written about noise marines and plaguemarines, except a small blurb from the past that said original plaguemarines were becoming rare. That means that *not much has been written about them other than a small blurb" so that is not really me saying that plague marines are getting rarer, but me pointing out that not much has been said about them other than a single small note about the subject. My new tzeetch CSM force is based specifically on the verbage of rhubric marines being very rare now. Sorry no books in front of me so can't give you the page number.

Also sorry there are no "specific circumstances" to the legions breaking up. Such things are mentioned in passing by those writing the fluff, and if they can't be bothered to put details to the situation exactly how are the rest of us supposed to provide such circumstances? I find that continuing to keep harping on the old "legions" despite also adding in the newer renegades to the mix takes a force that can be dynamic and interesting and hammers it into the same old molds again and again. I think the codex could be more open ended and interesting if it was just thrown out. That is what we call *opinoin* so I am not "making an arguement" needing rock solid proof or evidence. I am sharing an opinion on why I dislike it: If just *one* of the chaos legions actually remained fully intact it could devastate most of the Imperium by itself just from sheer force of numbers alone, and if all of them did chaos should be ruling the galaxy completely. The imperium panicked after the heresy and broke up all the legions left into smaller entitied spreadout and with their own command to avoid such masses of troops being instantly at the disposal of a single commander again. So even if the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Salamanders, Dark Angels and Imperial Fists all stood against them a single chaos legion would wipe the planet's surface clean with their corpses. This is why I think sticking to the old legion thinking is dumb. It doesn't fit within the context of the game to any real degree. The only primary reason chaos hasn't done this is because they forces of chaos are generally too busy fighting with each other. There are plenty of World Eater warbands out there, and most of them are probably fighting each other to prove who are the *real* world eaters.

Of course all this said, I couldn't care one bit if someone wants to play an army based on one of the old legions. They are free to do whatever they want. My whole position is how GW's thinking on the subject is muddled and not even remotely consistent.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Extreaminatus wrote:
Woah, buddy, slow down. Sarcasm was heavy in that post. BUT, since you brought it back up, let's take a moment to look at the Mark of Khorne and what it's good for: CC. Close Combat. The nitty-gritty. Asses and elbows time. The rough and tumble. Fisticuffs. Rumbles in jungles. Putting up dukes. Giving swirlies. Taking lunch money. Paying the piper. Riding the dragon. Shaving the weasle. Trapping the rabbit. Rocking on down to Electric Avenue.

I may have gotten lost.

Oh yeah. Mark of Khorne, close combat, not great at ranged.

I get that fluff is fun and all that, but this is a Codex discussion. I wish the MoK could be more useful outside of CC, but If you're putting the MoK on havocs, you're wasting points.

That's another thing I'd like to see a new codex: Marks that useful for more than one thing. Cool, MoS units can get +1Init, but I'd pay like, 5 points more for them to also get fleet with that, or the MoK get's +1WS and for however many points more they can re-roll to hit and/or to wound rolls for a turn.

Oh wow the mark of khorne improves CC. So? Stop limiting yourself to that kind of thinking. Yes this is a codex discussion and you are *still* limiting your codex view with the fluff completely. Within the bounds of your khornate force you can easily have units of all marks. The more frenzied brothers end up as berserkers or termies with the mark of khorne. Some of your faster bretheren could be regular CSMs effectively with the mark of slaanesh. Your tougher and harder to move forces will fill your havoc slots with the mark of nurgle and so on. There is also nothing stopping you from having a force dedicated to khorne where few if any of the units have any marks at all. The marks are a *tool* to provide abilities and features to your forces. Just like you can use the Tyrant to run a Night Lords force of infiltrators you can use all the marks to simulate just about anything in your forces on the table top. Using all the marks and tools in the codex to build your army instead of limiting yourself by saying "Well the mark of khorne only does this" is all how it works. I have dozens of units in my khornate CSM army. At most 3 of them actually have a khorne mark with respect to the rules. I've been playing khorne from the get go and just use the tools in the codex fully to keep my vision of my khorne forces clear and true instead of just worrying about the specific marks being used. All the marks do is determine what units you can use as troops, and the special abilities of the marked unit on the table. Just let your opponent read your list before the game so they know they are not just facing a mono-marked force...

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:
The fluff is kind of at odds with itself. It is well documented (new Black Legion supplement not withstanding) that the World Eater's collapsed as a legion shortly after the failure at Terra and Horus's death. Without the war to focus on they because focusing on themselves and split into numerous splinter factions. The next most well documented is the thousand sons. Rhubric marines are supposed to be incredibly rare in general and having 2 units of them in your tzeentch aligned force is supposed to be a big deal. Not much has been said about the emperor's children or the deathguard other than a small blurb about original plaguemarines are becoming more rare. The whole concept of them *still* harping on the legions is dumb. The chaos legions haven't really existed as such for generations. It should all be about the warbands and allegiance to the various powers of chaos. Sure berserkers, plague marines and noise marines still exist and more can be created all the time. Rhubric marines are a tough sell though because once they are destroyed it isn't as if there is another source to use to create more of them.

Also what is the point of including "renegades" to the codex if they end up just as limited in equipment and options as those forces that were based on parts from the original legions? Why wouldn't my newly fallen force of marines still have its crusaders and redeemers at their disposal? It just makes zero sense. The book wants to be two distinct entities in the game, but I don't think it ultimately fulfills either of them. :\

I played CSM from 2nd edition on and stayed very engaged in the game and reading a fair number of the CSM black library books. Granted the books tend to be heavily stylized to play up the chapter they are about. Here is how I think the fluff and the game should interact.

Worldeaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, Word Bearers - This is actually pretty simple to justify a specific army. Demons fill the gaps that would normally be filled by other MEQ units. It was pretty common to have a couple units of Berserkers with a couple units of demons in a standard Khorne army prior to GW gutting the demon section. These legions should have bonuses for Demon allies. Anytime they need a larger force, they pray to the patron of choice and he sends over some help. Once the battle is over, the demons fade back to the warp. Cultist could be another option because every legion needs some groupies.

Black Legion, Renegades - These are the take anything you want chapters, but should not get any bonuses. They fill their ranks by whatever means necessary.

Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors & Night Lords - These are your evil marine chapters where they most closely mirror the regular Space Marines. They should get a bonus to ally with Guard as they would either subjugate them or manipulate them into to working with them. Veterans should be the emphasis on these legions with people being able to take certain veteran units cheaper. Justification for more Marine units than the others is that they recruit more and haven't fully abandoned the ways to keep their tech up to date.

 Skriker wrote:
ATSKNF is an annoyance to me. It makes no sense that marines can be so completely immune to fear due to their conditioning, but lose that ability even after living in the terrifying environs of the Eye of Terror. If one lives side by side with daemons daily and the insanity that is chaos I can't understand why ATSKNF would just vanish as opposed to getting stronger. My solution, though, is not to give it to chaos marines, but to just remove it completely. It is one of the most broken rules in the game and needs to go.

Makes no sense to me either. CSM should probably be fearlees or bring back the undivided mark with high leadership.

 Skriker wrote:
While I loved the original randomness of chaos back in the day, after thinking about it more I think adding it back in to such an extreme to the current codex was a bad maneuver.

Randomness = bad. GW also prices the units based on getting the best result and then gives them a wide range of abilities. If it were +1 S, +1 T, +1 W, +1 A, +1 I or fearless, the it would be pretty reasonable, though I think randomness should go away completely.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.

Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol

If only there were some sort of Loyalist Chapter that couldn't take Librarians...

Yeah, too bad you're also going to get access to:

Land Raiders with a larger capacity, ATSKNF, multiple special characters, the ability to ally with your own codex without supplements, your own special HQ (the Emperor's Champion), amongst others.

Let me get out my violin for you, you poor poor baby.

 Skriker wrote:
Just like you can use the Tyrant to run a Night Lords force of infiltrators you can use all the marks to simulate just about anything in your forces on the table top. Using all the marks and tools in the codex to build your army instead of limiting yourself by saying "Well the mark of khorne only does this" is all how it works. I have dozens of units in my khornate CSM army. At most 3 of them actually have a khorne mark with respect to the rules. I've been playing khorne from the get go and just use the tools in the codex fully to keep my vision of my khorne forces clear and true instead of just worrying about the specific marks being used. All the marks do is determine what units you can use as troops, and the special abilities of the marked unit on the table. Just let your opponent read your list before the game so they know they are not just facing a mono-marked force...

Skriker

Dude if I'm going to go through that much trouble to do counts-as "durr muh tough marines have the mark of nurgal XDD XDD but dey are actually Khorne DDD" then I'm just going to use another codex.
Space Wolves fit the Khornate army ideal that I envision much better anyway: I can have Juggernaut riders, I can have badass Champions, I can have guys who are both great in range and combat, and brutal long range via Long Fangs. Hell, Blood Angels make a great pre-heresy World Eaters and the new Space marine codex with the Black Templar chapter tactics would also work better.

If I have to go through that much trouble to counts-as, the codex has failed pure and simple.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.

Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol

If only there were some sort of Loyalist Chapter that couldn't take Librarians...

Yeah, too bad you're also going to get access to:

Land Raiders with a larger capacity, ATSKNF, multiple special characters, the ability to ally with your own codex without supplements, your own special HQ (the Emperor's Champion), amongst others.

Let me get out my violin for you, you poor poor baby.

Oh please. You said that it wasn't fair that VeteranSergeant counted all the options in the CSM Codex because not all of it is available to Khorne-themed fluffy lists. I pointed out that the same is true for a Loyalist Chapter. If you can't have a civil discussion without jumping onto personal assaults I don't see why you're here. Chaos gets a metric crapton of options. Sure, a lot of them are rather iffy at best, but that's an issue with them being iffy, not with you not having options in the first place.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.

Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol

If only there were some sort of Loyalist Chapter that couldn't take Librarians...

Yeah, too bad you're also going to get access to:

Land Raiders with a larger capacity, ATSKNF, multiple special characters, the ability to ally with your own codex without supplements, your own special HQ (the Emperor's Champion), amongst others.

Let me get out my violin for you, you poor poor baby.

Oh please. You said that it wasn't fair that VeteranSergeant counted all the options in the CSM Codex because not all of it is available to Khorne-themed fluffy lists. I pointed out that the same is true for a Loyalist Chapter. If you can't have a civil discussion without jumping onto personal assaults I don't see why you're here. Chaos gets a metric crapton of options. Sure, a lot of them are rather iffy at best, but that's an issue with them being iffy, not with you not having options in the first place.

No, Khorne just doesn't get access to Psykers. Read the Chaos rulebook. Psykers may not take the Mark of Khorne.

Yes I acknowledge that you can't take Psykers either as Black Templar. But that's ALL you can't do as a Templar in the new Space Marine codex.

And as I noted before, Chaos only has "so many options" because it's sort of a false option. What if you play Undivided, ala Iron Warriors? Then you don't have any more options than normal Space Marines. You get to choose your special, your heavy, and maybe one or two different things.

Furthermore, options aren't the end-all-be-all. We have to pay for VotLW. We have to pay for our special rule and in every single instance, it's over-costed. You do realize that with votlw, a Chaos Space Marine costs as much as a Tactical Marine, except that the Tactical Marine is significantly better in nearly way?

Options mean nothing if they're complete crap. And if you can't take sarcasm then you may want to get off the computer, just sayin.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.

Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol

Except that the Chapter Master's and the Tactical Squad's options are locked into specific combos too. We're just talking total options. I'm not going to sit here and do the math to figure out just how many possible combos there are. Maybe you guys should get on that. This will give you something productive to do.

Though I doubt it's going to give you the results you want.

Again, you guys are flailing here. The bottom line is, you guys want Codex: Chaos Space Marines to be Codex: Space Marines, but spiky and with skulls. The reality is, the two armies are entirely different, and just based around dudes called "Space Marines". Lots of stuff exist in the Codex books to balance them out (succeed or fail is irrelevant) and a lot of options are limited to drive sales of different models. But the reality is, there is a ton of variety and option in the Chaos Space Marines codex. As much, or more, than the Space Marine Codex books get. No, you don't get all the fancy Land Raiders. The crazy Chaos factories are bored by things like Land Raiders. It makes giant Khornemowers and Rotary Cannon Dogs and Spiderbots, and Goopnaughts and Metal Dragons because Chaos gonna do what Chaos gonna do.

If you wanted to play Space Marines... well, maybe you should have played Space Marines.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.

Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol

If only there were some sort of Loyalist Chapter that couldn't take Librarians...

Yeah, too bad you're also going to get access to:

Land Raiders with a larger capacity, ATSKNF, multiple special characters, the ability to ally with your own codex without supplements, your own special HQ (the Emperor's Champion), amongst others.

Let me get out my violin for you, you poor poor baby.

Oh please. You said that it wasn't fair that VeteranSergeant counted all the options in the CSM Codex because not all of it is available to Khorne-themed fluffy lists. I pointed out that the same is true for a Loyalist Chapter. If you can't have a civil discussion without jumping onto personal assaults I don't see why you're here. Chaos gets a metric crapton of options. Sure, a lot of them are rather iffy at best, but that's an issue with them being iffy, not with you not having options in the first place.

No, Khorne just doesn't get access to Psykers. Read the Chaos rulebook. Psykers may not take the Mark of Khorne.

Yes I acknowledge that you can't take Psykers either as Black Templar. But that's ALL you can't do as a Templar in the new Space Marine codex.

And as I noted before, Chaos only has "so many options" because it's sort of a false option. What if you play Undivided, ala Iron Warriors? Then you don't have any more options than normal Space Marines. You get to choose your special, your heavy, and maybe one or two different things.

Furthermore, options aren't the end-all-be-all. We have to pay for VotLW. We have to pay for our special rule and in every single instance, it's over-costed. You do realize that with votlw, a Chaos Space Marine costs as much as a Tactical Marine, except that the Tactical Marine is significantly better in nearly way?

Options mean nothing if they're complete crap. And if you can't take sarcasm then you may want to get off the computer, just sayin.

Calling someone a "poor, poor baby" isn't sarcasm, it's patronizing.

That said, Templars don't get access to Special Characters other than their own, so while I'm supposed to be extatic about my "multiple special characters (i.e. 3 of them)", Chaos can still take anyone they feel like.

Again, I agree with you, but stop complaining about how Chaos doesn't have options and start complaining about how the myriads of options you have aren't exactly inspiring. As has been pointed out, you have more options than Vanilla Marines, so it's not the number of options that are lacking but rather their impact on the game (and to be fair, a lot of Vanilla options are jokes too).

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.

Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol

Except that the Chapter Master's and the Tactical Squad's options are locked into specific combos too. We're just talking total options. I'm not going to sit here and do the math to figure out just how many possible combos there are. Maybe you guys should get on that. This will give you something productive to do.

Though I doubt it's going to give you the results you want.

Again, you guys are flailing here. The bottom line is, you guys want Codex: Chaos Space Marines to be Codex: Space Marines, but spiky and with skulls. The reality is, the two armies are entirely different, and just based around dudes called "Space Marines". Lots of stuff exist in the Codex books to balance them out (succeed or fail is irrelevant) and a lot of options are limited to drive sales of different models. But the reality is, there is a ton of variety and option in the Chaos Space Marines codex. As much, or more, than the Space Marine Codex books get. No, you don't get all the fancy Land Raiders. The crazy Chaos factories are bored by things like Land Raiders. It makes giant Khornemowers and Rotary Cannon Dogs and Spiderbots, and Goopnaughts and Metal Dragons because Chaos gonna do what Chaos gonna do.

If you wanted to play Space Marines... well, maybe you should have played Space Marines.

The total number of options available is a completely meaningless number. You seem to have latched onto it like it means something. It'd be just as pointless to compare number of pages in the codex, or which one has more USRs, etc. The number that matters is the number of options available to a specific theme, and that number varies with the theme. Pretending that it is any other way is disingenuous, because theme restricts the total number of options used. Every army has a theme, whether it is a specific space marine chapter, or a specific craftworld, or even a regiment of mixed imperial guard forces. It just happens to be that unlike most other codexes, the themes that chaos players (both marine and daemon) use are incredibly restrictive.

For example, an army themed to the Ultramarines chapter can use 100% of the options in the current marine codex, except for a couple of special characters (and even then, you are encouraged to convert your own chapter-specific version of them). An army themed to the World Eaters can use x% of the chaos marine codex, where x < 100. In fact, it is significantly less than 100%.

Except you're just making up random numbers.

The reality is, if your army is "Ultramarine themed" you can't use half the special characters. If your army is "Crimson Fist themed", you can only use one of them. And if yours is "DIY Chapter Themed" you can't use any of them.

You're just placing artificial limits on yourself. Which is fine. But don't blame it on the Codex book.

CSM shouldn't use drop pods. Since they are Chaos, they don't like to use tactics. Instead they prefer to charge chaotically across the board headlong into the enemy's guns screaming praises to the Dark Gods. Then they either overrun the enemy, or more likely when enough of them have been killed they break and run away. This is all in the fluff - if you read up about the Great Crusade, you'll find this is how the Sons of Horus won all their battles.

This is why there are no mono-legion warbands in 40k - almost all the original legionaries are dead as a result of these tactics. VotLW is not meant to represent veterans of the Horus Heresy - it is meant to represent recent recruits who have managed to survive a battle or two. After losing yet another battle chewed up by bolter fire for the umpteenth time you really start to hate Space Marines. It's going to be a Looooong War indeed!

I swear that is EXACTLY what Kelly's design brief was ...

Options mean nothing if they're complete crap. And if you can't take sarcasm then you may want to get off the computer, just sayin.

He um ... He doesn't. In my experience. Understand it. The sarcasm that is ...

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Except that the Chapter Master's and the Tactical Squad's options are locked into specific combos too. We're just talking total options. I'm not going to sit here and do the math to figure out just how many possible combos there are. Maybe you guys should get on that. This will give you something productive to do.

Though I doubt it's going to give you the results you want.

Really? What options are you "locked" into? Other than "can't take Terminator armor if you're on a bike", which abides for every army. You guys are going to get a Tac squad that is basically similar to the Dark Angels one, PLUS you guys will have Chapter Tactics. Furthermore, since the Space Marine book is going to have MORE units and MORE weaponry, you will have more options.

This is of course assuming that just "options" is important, which it isn't.

Again, you guys are flailing here. The bottom line is, you guys want Codex: Chaos Space Marines to be Codex: Space Marines, but spiky and with skulls.

We're flailing and you're the one using strawmans. lol

Most people here want something like 3.5 where yes, there were a ton of options, and tons of ways to theme your army. You can't do that now, at least not without counts-as. Personally I prefer the Rogue Trader style where the 4 god-aligned legions had their own army list plus the Black Legion for undivided. Regardless, Phail Kelly's "attempt" (I used that word lightly) fails in all respects to live up to the Rogue Trader incarnation.

The reality is, the two armies are entirely different, and just based around dudes called "Space Marines". Lots of stuff exist in the Codex books to balance them out (succeed or fail is irrelevant) and a lot of options are limited to drive sales of different models. But the reality is, there is a ton of variety and option in the Chaos Space Marines codex. As much, or more, than the Space Marine Codex books get. No, you don't get all the fancy Land Raiders. The crazy Chaos factories are bored by things like Land Raiders. It makes giant Khornemowers and Rotary Cannon Dogs and Spiderbots, and Goopnaughts and Metal Dragons because Chaos gonna do what Chaos gonna do.

Tons of variety? Oh yes. Like, "do I take the dinobot with powerfists or the dinobot with guns?". Soooo many options. Again, for you options is all you are rambling about and even then the normal Space Marine book has more units and will have more weapon options (see Grav weapons) and overall more variety due to the Chapter Tactics system.

If you wanted to play Space Marines... well, maybe you should have played Space Marines.

I do. I counts-as my World Eaters as Space Wolves.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And if yours is "DIY Chapter Themed" you can't use any of them.

This is false since for a DIY chapter you just pick the relevant Chapter Tactics. Then you use those SC's. Worse case scenario, you ally in. WITH YOUR OWN BOOK, I should add.

Tons of variety? Oh yes. Like, "do I take the dinobot with powerfists or the dinobot with guns?". Soooo many options. Again, for you options is all you are rambling about and even then the normal Space Marine book has more units and will have more weapon options (see Grav weapons) and overall more variety due to the Chapter Tactics system.

We can't even use the new dinobot weapons with our old stuff, no baleflamer preds/land raiders, no hades cannon replacing autocannons, and other such things.

Even FFG in the new book gave access to a hand held ectoplasm launcher.

Barfolomew wrote:
Worldeaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, Word Bearers - This is actually pretty simple to justify a specific army. Demons fill the gaps that would normally be filled by other MEQ units. It was pretty common to have a couple units of Berserkers with a couple units of demons in a standard Khorne army prior to GW gutting the demon section. These legions should have bonuses for Demon allies. Anytime they need a larger force, they pray to the patron of choice and he sends over some help. Once the battle is over, the demons fade back to the warp. Cultist could be another option because every legion needs some groupies.

Black Legion, Renegades - These are the take anything you want chapters, but should not get any bonuses. They fill their ranks by whatever means necessary.

Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors & Night Lords - These are your evil marine chapters where they most closely mirror the regular Space Marines. They should get a bonus to ally with Guard as they would either subjugate them or manipulate them into to working with them. Veterans should be the emphasis on these legions with people being able to take certain veteran units cheaper. Justification for more Marine units than the others is that they recruit more and haven't fully abandoned the ways to keep their tech up to date.

Hrm... I like these. They are an interestingly different take on the whole thing. The "big four" have definitely dedicated themselves a bit more significantly to the specific powers and the Word Bearers certainly offer their allegiance to all of the various powers of chaos fully. Your ideas on Black Legion are kind of why I scratched my head at the concept of the Black Legion being the first CSM supplement. The current book is already setup to include any and all units like the Black Legion does. Curious to see if everyone's fears of *4* heldrakes come to pass or not.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Dude if I'm going to go through that much trouble to do counts-as "durr muh tough marines have the mark of nurgal XDD XDD but dey are actually Khorne DDD" then I'm just going to use another codex.
Space Wolves fit the Khornate army ideal that I envision much better anyway: I can have Juggernaut riders, I can have badass Champions, I can have guys who are both great in range and combat, and brutal long range via Long Fangs. Hell, Blood Angels make a great pre-heresy World Eaters and the new Space marine codex with the Black Templar chapter tactics would also work better.

If I have to go through that much trouble to counts-as, the codex has failed pure and simple.

Go through what trouble? Using the rules as written in the codex is going through *trouble*. Well whatever mate do what makes you happy. Space wolves are a fine option too. The *point* which you missed is that by focusing only on the mark of khorne that is also limiting things based on fluff. All they are is rules. My own khorne army actually has a whopping *3* units with marks, all of them khorne. I still use what rules I can to keep my vision alive for khornate marines. I don't mark by havocs, but can still call them followers of khorne in my army.

Annoying that once again *one* force will get something like chapter tactics to use when most armies could benefit from such a mechanic, but that is a discussion for a different thread...

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

Go through what trouble? Using the rules as written in the codex is going through *trouble*. Well whatever mate do what makes you happy. Space wolves are a fine option too. The *point* which you missed is that by focusing only on the mark of khorne that is also limiting things based on fluff. All they are is rules. My own khorne army actually has a whopping *3* units with marks, all of them khorne. I still use what rules I can to keep my vision alive for khornate marines. I don't mark by havocs, but can still call them followers of khorne in my army.

No, you are also limited based on game mechanics once you take a mark. For example, you can't take a Slaanesh lord and then put it in a unit of Khorne Berserkers.

The Mark of Khorne (or Slaanesh) on ranged models like Obliterators and Havocs further shows the problems of the book and why I said that Phail Kelly is a complete hack.

For example, why not make the Mark of Khorne give "Preferred Enemy: All" (with a points increase) and have Slaanesh give "Stubborn" or "Fearless" (like it does in Fantasy and used to in 40k). Then, both Marks would be useful for any type of model, not just certain models.

What I'm saying is that if I am going to go through the trouble of telling my opponent "these berserkers actually aren't berserkers and they have the mark of nurgle", I might as well get a more interesting book (that's cheaper in terms of $$) and say "these berserkers are grey hunters".

Annoying that once again *one* force will get something like chapter tactics to use when most armies could benefit from such a mechanic, but that is a discussion for a different thread...

Skriker

I bring it up because of Veteran Sergeant trying to use "muh options" as an argument.