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So me and my friend and currently in a heated debate on which WG i should buy. I like the Riflemen. With their order and superior range(albeit less powerful gun)
He says I should go full Infantry with UA and Kovnik joe. Now there is no denying the power of this unit. with a possible defense 17 But I cant help but feel it has been done to DEATH and people know how to counter it easily. But WG Riflemen seem pretty cool with their ability to lay down fire across the board and have them put down AOE's that can block movment

Well, the deal is that everything that counters the WGDS will also counter Winterguard Rifle Corps.

you can definitely use the Rifle Corps instead of the Infantry, while still taking Kovnik Joe. You trade away the rather impressive melee ability, and medium ranged shooting power, of the infantry to get longer range.


While people are very used to seeing the WGDS, its continued success shows that being predictable isn't hurting it.

I would say, with Khador's general reliance on a bunch of infantry, take both. You can take both a WGDS and some Rifle Corps to give them some covering fire.

I would also add that as a jam unit the WGDS is pretty much at the top of the heap. If you need something to clog a zone or stop an advance you would have to dedicate another unit to the task and your IFP are awesome but they should be putting pressure on heavies and colossals.

Huh, I have just never been one to follow trends and "Those suck take these" advice of many people. One thing people keep telling me is that in warmachine, any model is good. I just never liked taking predictable units

One could probably make the argument that every unit is in some way predictable. The WGDS isn't any more predictable in what it does than the Riflemen are in what they do. They have differing roles. Most people reach for the WGDS+Joe because once things get in close, like scenario play in WM is generally designed for, they generally outshine the Riflemen at clearing opposing infantry.

If you take the Rifle Corps, you absolutely will need some kind of
infantry unit or two to hold the middle ground. However, the
Winterguard Infantry can hold the middle ground in a pinch,
opening up your infantry options to maneuvering as a flanking
force instead of as anvils.

If you take the Rifle Corps, you absolutely will need some kind of
infantry unit or two to hold the middle ground.

What Khador lists do you see that aren't running two full units of infantry at 50 points minimum? I agree, but bringing infantry that will be charging up midfield isn't exactly something Khador is short on.

I'm going to be that guy and speak up for the Rifle Corps, but I've seen players use them to good effect so I disagree that the distinction between the Death Star and the Corps is as clear cut as people are making it out to be.

The Corps have a few advantages over the WGDS, IMO:
1. Kovnik Joe is basically Deadeye on a stick, which is bananas for a full unit with 14" guns.
2. They're not reliant on defensive buffs (read: Iron Flesh) to the degree that the WGDS is, and so are a bit more warcaster agnostic.
3. With Joe, they're the only Khador unit (alongside Widowmakers) with accurate, long-range shooting.

It can get crazy when you factor in other buffs that you can stack on top of that. A common thing I see is a pVlad list with Corps+Joe and Aiyana and Holt. With Harm and Signs and Portents the Corps can shoot things like Warpwolves and Legion heavies off the table with frightening consistency at 14", and put decent dents in heavier targets.

As a non-Khador player (but someone who plays against Khador players I would consider to be solid at minimum) I think a lot of it ultimately comes down to whether you have Iron Flesh or not: without Iron Flesh (or against armies that can neutralize/ignore it) the WGDS is significantly less impressive. On the other hand, the Corps need Joe for the extra die on attack rolls, so in character-restricted tournaments you'll have to make some hard choices on your army compositions and they may not win. They're both viable in their own right, but it really comes down to your meta and the needs of your individual lists.

Chracter Restricted Tournaments?

In a tournament with multiple lists, you can't duplicate characters between lists.

Normally this is only restricted to the specific model, epic versions don't count. IE: You could have one list with pEyriss and one with eEyriss, but not both lists with pEyriss.

There is another level of this restriction which does count epic versions as the same character. So one of your lists could have either prime or epic Eyriss.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Chracter Restricted Tournaments?

Most Warmahordes tournaments are 2-list tournaments, and most tournaments don't allow you to have the same character model in both lists (so you can have Joe/Gorman/eEiryss/etc. in one list or the other, but not both). Both Winter Guard units need Joe pretty badly because he's such a force multiplier for them, so you'll usually have to choose one or the other.

In casual games it doesn't matter, so you're free to choose based on whether the WGDS or the Rifle Corps fit your list more.

EDIT: beaten

Chozo wrote:

If you take the Rifle Corps, you absolutely will need some kind of
infantry unit or two to hold the middle ground.

What Khador lists do you see that aren't running two full units of infantry at 50 points minimum? I agree, but bringing infantry that will be charging up midfield isn't exactly something Khador is short on.

I wasn't telling him NOT to do it, just that Winterguard Infantry can serve
dual purposes, opening up your list to other things. I like the Rifle Corps,
too, but they're going to be more specialized.

Wait, Tournaments force you to change lists? So i have to have several lists available? Which means more models? I thought the seeling point of this game was that it was cheap.

Most formats don't require two lists. Most players bring them, though.

A local player has a 30 point module that makes it into all of his
lists. He does only change a few things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The selling point of the game is that it's good.

Yeah, I've noticed that a lot of the time in a 2-list tournament you can simply switch out a solo or two plus warcaster and use the same list. Helps a lot for new players, I think.

Character restrictions may still be important, but it's certainly an option to switch out a solo and warcaster and have a new "list" vs. needing a completely full new list.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Wait, Tournaments force you to change lists? So i have to have several lists available? Which means more models? I thought the seeling point of this game was that it was cheap.

Since warmachine can be a very rock paper scissors (spock lizard) game it is beneficial to take an alternate list that can deal with the weaknesses of your original list. It is not always required. Or even allowed. And often times the lists use some of the similar units with a different warcaster.

At the local tourney level this is a usually non-issue. By the time you get competitive enough to play at higher levels your collection will undoubtedly be larger than the 2 or even 3 lists you will make.

So my pikement cant be a roadblock? nor my Shock Troopers?

Shock Troopers are not disposable. They're a durable offensive unit. The WGDS is a true tarpit by virtue of bodies and having tough.

A Shock Trooper has Arm18(with shieldwall) and a Winter Guard has 12(IIRC)

Now while that may seem like a lot, that Shock Trooper is in many ways easier to kill.


Say I have a Warjack like a Crusader. Its much easier for the Crusader to kill 5 Shock Troopers than it is for him to kill 10 Winter Guard. Thus, the Winter Guard are a superior Tarpit.

The same goes for IFP. Its easier for him to kill the IFP than it is to kill the Winter Guard.


You could use Pikemen as a roadblock, but winter guard do it better. Pikemen are good at holding a position and daring the enemy to take it. Winter Guard rush ahead and slow the enemy down before they can get to the Pikemen sitting on the objective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Wait, Tournaments force you to change lists? So i have to have several lists available? Which means more models? I thought the seeling point of this game was that it was cheap.

Most 2 list tournaments have the second list as being optional, but if you bring it you must use it.

So in a 50 point tournament, I can bring up to 2 lists. if I bring 2 lists, I must play each at least once. Or something along that line.


Many of my tournament lists have lots of cross over in units and Jacks. One tournament I went to I had a unit of Errants, 2 of my Jacks, and 4 solos that were the same in each list. Cutting down on additional models needed considerably.

^^ Shocktroopers have ARM 21 with shieldwall, Winterguard have ARM13.

Pikemen are just so lethal and have a great threat range so they are usually used as tough offensive units. Granted, Winterguard can put out some massive damage as well since they have the highest CRA in the game (naturally higher base POW of 12 + 15 models with guns).

Another reason why WGDS is so good in multi list tourneys. They can be run with any of our warcasters and do well. Riflemen dont fill all the roles that the WGDS do, so they are not as universal.

So Maybe I should just got with WGDS?
Maybe instead nyss hunters?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So Maybe I should just got with WGDS?

That's a personal decision you have to make based on the info we are providing you.

On the other hand, why choose? Get both!

KingKodo wrote:
^^ Shocktroopers have ARM 21 with shieldwall, Winterguard have ARM13.

Wow, I was way off.

 Mordekiem wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So Maybe I should just got with WGDS?

That's a personal decision you have to make based on the info we are providing you.

On the other hand, why choose? Get both!

They be expensive?

Depends on what you consider expensive. $30-40 each for the basic unit. Plus joe and the ua/wa.

At some point you are likely to collect a lot of stuff. So save your money for both.

The new plastic WG are $50. but you do get a full unit plus Rocketeers.

Then you need to add the UA, so another $13. So $63 all together.


Riflecorps will be "cheaper", but then you aren't getting as much.

IFP are the real expensive stuff. $105 for a full unit with UA.


The nice thing with Warmachine is you can take it slow. Save up for a single unit at a time as it will be instantly playable. Not like 40k where just adding a unit into the mix at a whim doesn't work.

If you get the nyss hunters you may want to look at picking up Valachev depending on who your chosen caster is

I've been working on a list (both 35 and 50pts) with the Rifle Corp that I'm finding is pretty good. The lists are:
Points: 35/35
Supreme Kommandant Irusk (*5pts)
* Behemoth (13pts)
* War dog (1pts)
Iron Fang Pikemen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Black Dragon Officer & Standard (2pts)
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt (4pts)
Winter Guard Rifle Corps (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Iron Fang Kovnik (2pts)
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich (2pts)

Supreme Kommandant Irusk (*5pts)
* Behemoth (13pts)
Iron Fang Pikemen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Black Dragon Officer & Standard (2pts)
Iron Fang Pikemen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Black Dragon Officer & Standard (2pts)
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt (4pts)
Winter Guard Rifle Corps (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Iron Fang Kovnik (2pts)
Iron Fang Kovnik (2pts)
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich (2pts)
Manhunter (2pts)
Manhunter (2pts)


The list is built around eIrusks abilities. It allows the riflemen to stay behind the wall of Iron Fangs, yet they can still take out infantry like crazy. Ayranna and Holt are in their to either make the rifles magical (Cryx has a strong presence in my meta. ) or to harm things.

What does eirusk give the Riflemen?

Remember that Fire for Effect is a single model ability.

 malfred wrote:
What does eirusk give the Riflemen?

Remember that Fire for Effect is a single model ability.

Martial Discipline and Total Obedience.

The WGRC hide behind the IFP and take out enemy Infantry.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

 malfred wrote:
What does eirusk give the Riflemen?

Remember that Fire for Effect is a single model ability.

Martial Discipline and Total Obedience.

The WGRC hide behind the IFP and take out enemy Infantry.

hmm, i think youre missing out on eirusks abilities by only taking iron fangs. i've found him to be incredibly effective with a screening wall of men o war (any flavour). medium bases block LOS and tramples, but your doods can still shoot/charge through. with tactical supremacy, he opens up some movement shenanigans for them, and also lets them move 11" a turn.

rifle corps, widowmakers or nyss with valachev go great with this. heck, so do doom reavers!

Honestly, I use both units in my 35 Point list. And, they seem to do fairly well with eSorscha, Joe, full unit of WG Infantry with UA, and a full unit of WG Rifle corps. Nothing funnier than surprising your opponent with Shatter Storm on your Rifle Corps with boosted attacks from Joe at 14" after moving 6". Blasted away most of the infantry from many an anwary opponent that way. That, and I have used the Rifle Corps multiple times to snipe a wounded enemy Warcaster from some pretty good distances.

I love them both but in smaller point games I always use the WG Infantry instead, they are just so reliable.