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Can two characters with different marks join a unit at the same time if that unit is unmarked? For example a Sorcerer of Tzeentch and a Slaaneshi Lord both joining a squad of unmarked spawn. The rule in the book that leaves doubt is the following from pg. 30 of Codex: Chaos Space Marine "An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos." From this I can easily say that neither could join a squad of Plague Marines, but could they both join an unmarked unit?

I would say no, since the mark on one of the characters would prevent the other from joining.
That's HIWPI.

The unit does not havea different mark, as for "all rules purposes" the IC is a normal member of the unit, and a normal member of the unit has no Mark

Except that one guy who is a normal member of the unit, who has a different Mark.

Ah so, when "for the rules purpose" "what mark does this unit have?" you are treating the IC NOT as a normal member of the unit?

Page and graph to show where you are allowed to ignore page 39

Nos, he's being treated as a normal member of the unit.
A normal member of the unit has a mark.

So your saying that if I upgrade one member of the unit to have a Plasma Gun, the unit doesn't have a Plasma gun because the whole unit doesn't have one?


One member of a unit is allowed different stuff to other members of the unit.

rigeld2 wrote:
Nos, he's being treated as a normal member of the unit.
A normal member of the unit has a mark.

And a normal member of that unit does NOT have a mark.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Nos, he's being treated as a normal member of the unit.
A normal member of the unit has a mark.

And a normal member of that unit does NOT have a mark.

So a Marked unit (say Berserkers) with a non-marked IC.
This now has a normal of that unit that does NOT have a mark.
So a Slaanesh IC can join it?

This is answered quite simply by just looking at the actual rule.

"An Independent Character with a Mark of Chaos may not join a unit with a different Mark of Chaos."

It doesn't say anything about the entire unit having to have the Mark. So IC number 1 with his Mark joins the unit. He is now a member of that unit. Does the unit have *a* different Mark of Chaos? Yes, yes it does. IC number 2 cannot join.

 grendel083 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Nos, he's being treated as a normal member of the unit.
A normal member of the unit has a mark.

And a normal member of that unit does NOT have a mark.

So a Marked unit (say Berserkers) with a non-marked IC.
This now has a normal of that unit that does NOT have a mark.
So a Slaanesh IC can join it?

Nope, that isnt anything like what I just said. At all. Dont strawman

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nope, that isnt anything like what I just said. At all. Dont strawman

I apologise if I misinterpreted.
Your comment...

And a normal member of that unit does NOT have a mark.

...seemed to suggest if a normal member has no mark, then a marked IC could join the unit.
If this is not what you meant, please could you explain what you did mean?

Wait, so of an IC with frag grenades joins a unit without then the unit would attack at I1 if charging through terrain? Apparently I've been doing something wrong...

 grendel083 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nope, that isnt anything like what I just said. At all. Dont strawman

I apologise if I misinterpreted.
Your comment...

And a normal member of that unit does NOT have a mark.

...seemed to suggest if a normal member has no mark, then a marked IC could join the unit.
If this is not what you meant, please could you explain what you did mean?

It is nothing like what I said, still. I was stating that for all rules purposes he behaves as a normal member of the unit; every normal (non IC) member of the unit has no mark

Except that's not true. He's a normal member of a unit and he has a mark.

Therefore a normal member of a unit has a mark.

 Happyjew wrote:
Wait, so of an IC with frag grenades joins a unit without then the unit would attack at I1 if charging through terrain? Apparently I've been doing something wrong...

the unit does the character does not.

Or is it defensive grenades that apply to the unit. I forget.

 Happyjew wrote:
Or is it defensive grenades that apply to the unit. I forget.

It is defensive grenades:

"Models charging units equipped with defensive grenades" (62)

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Or is it defensive grenades that apply to the unit. I forget.

It is defensive grenades:

"Models charging units equipped with defensive grenades" (62)

This is how I have always played defensive grenades, if a lord with blight grenades joins a unit then the unit is "equipped with defensive grenades". Otherwise it would be a pretty pointless upgrade.

The rules tell us when things on a single model apply to the entire squad and when it doesn't (look at the USR). We have nothing indicating that a single IC with a mark has any affect on the unit in regards to the mark.

Looking at a squad of CSM on the table. If I ask "what mark do they have?" and my opponent answers "Nurgle" because the sorcerer joined to it is mark of Nurgle, we would all treat that as misleading and wrong. They DON'T have the mark, the IC does. So in joining that squad, do they have the mark of Nurgle? No... so a lord with a Mark of Khorne CAN join it. It never says "if there is a mark somewhere in the unit or joined IC", it says "may not join a unit with a different mark". What's the unit? The CSM in this case. Do they have a different mark? No.

If that's not RAI, they need Errata to clear it up.

To say that squad has no mark is also incorrect.
The IC is a member of the squad. The squad does contain a mark.

Your example is also misleading. Is it so hard to say "The character does, but the rest of the squad doesn't."? This would be the correct answer.

 Lobukia wrote:
The rules tell us when things on a single model apply to the entire squad and when it doesn't (look at the USR). We have nothing indicating that a single IC with a mark has any affect on the unit in regards to the mark.

Looking at a squad of CSM on the table. If I ask "what mark do they have?" and my opponent answers "Nurgle" because the sorcerer joined to it is mark of Nurgle, we would all treat that as misleading and wrong. They DON'T have the mark, the IC does. So in joining that squad, do they have the mark of Nurgle? No... so a lord with a Mark of Khorne CAN join it. It never says "if there is a mark somewhere in the unit or joined IC", it says "may not join a unit with a different mark". What's the unit? The CSM in this case. Do they have a different mark? No.

If that's not RAI, they need Errata to clear it up.

Let me ask you this then. An IC with Blight Grenades joins a unit of Cultists. The unit is charged by a squad of Assault Marines. Do the Marines get the bonus Attack from charging? Why or why not?

 Happyjew wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
The rules tell us when things on a single model apply to the entire squad and when it doesn't (look at the USR). We have nothing indicating that a single IC with a mark has any affect on the unit in regards to the mark.

Looking at a squad of CSM on the table. If I ask "what mark do they have?" and my opponent answers "Nurgle" because the sorcerer joined to it is mark of Nurgle, we would all treat that as misleading and wrong. They DON'T have the mark, the IC does. So in joining that squad, do they have the mark of Nurgle? No... so a lord with a Mark of Khorne CAN join it. It never says "if there is a mark somewhere in the unit or joined IC", it says "may not join a unit with a different mark". What's the unit? The CSM in this case. Do they have a different mark? No.

If that's not RAI, they need Errata to clear it up.

Let me ask you this then. An IC with Blight Grenades joins a unit of Cultists. The unit is charged by a squad of Assault Marines. Do the Marines get the bonus Attack from charging? Why or why not?

I follow the rules, looking at Codex, BRB, FAQ in that order. After reading the blight grenade entry, I refer to the rulebook. The BRB says nothing one way or the other (I would assume not). But I check the FAQ, and it says that it does work. However, I don't stop reading the rulebook there. I look at page 39 on IC, which says that SRs don't apply to joined units unless specified so. I also look at movement rules which tell me that joining doesn't happen until the end of the movement phase. So ICs don't join until the end of the phase, since they join coherently, neither of them could have conferred the mark (which they can't) to the unit BEFORE the other. So unless you want to ignore two parts of the basic IC rules, two CSM ICs with different marks CAN join the same unmarked squad (until an FAQ says otherwise).

It has nothing to do with the rule being conferred to the unit or not.
The unit definitely does not gain the benefit of the Mark.
However one member of the unit has a Mark, so you're attempting to join a Marked IC to a unit that contains a different Mark.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
An IC with Blight Grenades joins a unit of Cultists. The unit is charged by a squad of Assault Marines. Do the Marines get the bonus Attack from charging? Why or why not?

First place to check is the rules for Defensive grenades.
The Assault Marines have charged a unit equipped Defensive Grenades (held by the IC), so looses their Charge Bonus.

@grendel. Happyjew's not really asking, he's leading me.

When do IC join? After movement, while in cohesion. Even if the marked status could be given to the unit, it won't happen until after the movement phase. So when checking the unit for marks and moving to join, it's not marked. The game mechanics actually make it impossible for an IC to give a marked status to a unit at the time another IC would move in.

 Lobukia wrote:
When do IC join? After movement, while in cohesion. Even if the marked status could be given to the unit, it won't happen until after the movement phase. So when checking the unit for marks and moving to join, it's not marked. The game mechanics actually make it impossible for an IC to give a marked status to a unit at the time another IC would move in.

If you're joining two characters to the same unit at the same time (two simultaneous actions - see "Exceptions" page 9) you'll have to decide which order to do them in.
As soon as the first IC joins, you now have a unit containing a Mark. This prevents the second joining.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
When do IC join? After movement, while in cohesion. Even if the marked status could be given to the unit, it won't happen until after the movement phase. So when checking the unit for marks and moving to join, it's not marked. The game mechanics actually make it impossible for an IC to give a marked status to a unit at the time another IC would move in.

If you're joining two characters to the same unit at the same time (two simultaneous actions - see "Exceptions" page 9) you'll have to decide which order to do them in.
As soon as the first IC joins, you now have a unit containing a Mark. This prevents the second joining.

Please read what I've posted. It's not an action, its a status. Moving into cohesion is the action. IC have no ability to give anything to a unit in the movement phase while joining. So at the time you check for marks, the unit can't have marked as a status (won't happen until the end of the phase, after the other IC moved in).

Regardless, the unit isn't marked anyway. We clearly have a mechanic for a unit to be marked (purchase it). If the unit didn't buy it, it doesn't have it and any marked IC can join. There is no rule that gives marked status any other way. You can infer all you want, but the rule reads "the unit". We have other rules that read "any model", but this isn't one of them. You can read that in, or HYWPI, or RAI but RAW "the unit" and "any model" are different, seperate, and distinct. You can't sub one in for the other with SR, wargear, or marks.

 Lobukia wrote:
It's not an action, its a status.

If it's a status than as soon as you've done it you've broken the rule for Marks. You now have a unit containing two conflicting Marks.

IC have no ability to give anything to a unit in the movement phase while joining.

Not true, but irrelevent. It's not a case of "giving" anything to the unit, but of "being" marked. Once an IC has joined a unit, one of it's members now has a Mark. The unit is definitley not "Unmarked". And note that they join at the end of their movement phase, not the movement phase. Slight change from 5th.

Regardless, the unit isn't marked anyway.

Once an IC joins the unit, he becomes a member of that unit for all rules purposes (p39). The unit now has a member with a mark.

There is no rule that gives marked status any other way.

The unit can contain a Marked member. See "Independant Character" p39. Note they count as a member of the unit for all rules purposes. The effects of the Mark certainly aren't passed on, but the unit now contains a Marked member.

You can infer all you want, but the rule reads "the unit".

What it doesn't read is the "Entire Unit" or the more common usage "Unit's comprised entirely of models with this special rule" (see: Fleet or Deep Strike as examples)

We have other rules that read "any model", but this isn't one of them. You can read that in, or HYWPI, or RAI but RAW "the unit" and "any model" are different, seperate, and distinct. You can't sub one in for the other with SR, wargear, or marks.

See above, it does not say Entire Unit.

I've said it three times, and its in the rules. So I'll let you tell me. When does an IC join a unit?

At the end of their (the IC's) movement phase.
Again note: this isn't the end of the movement phase.

Or deployment.