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Kangodo wrote:
So instead you refuse to play against an army that is already an easy match-up for <insert any codex>?

If you don't want them to have a 1+ FNP, don't give him the 1+ FNP.

If this is a response to me I have already retracted most of my counter argument. It isn't worth it especially for one character but please don't expect every last one of us to know the ins and outs of every single army in existence as well as the notion that one can RaW get a 1+ fnp which I assume quite a few players think is absolutely impossible as people are used to 1+ always working not being a thing

 Super Ready wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:Corbulo does not have 2+ FNP. He has FNP which passes on a 2+. The distinction being, it still functions as normal FNP but adds a special rule. So, he doesn't get 1+ FNP for passing a single toughness test.

MarkyMark wrote:It doesnt say, as per the BRB states it should, FNP (2+), it says Corbulo is passed on a 2 plus, rather then a 4+. Therefore Corbulos FNP cannot be 1+ as codex trumps rule book and you must use his 2+.

You've both missed something. Again:
Page 68 of the Daemons Codex, Warpflame rule that comes on the psychic powers (note that *ALL* Tzeentch powers have it):
"If the (Toughness) test is passed (...) Any models in the unit that already have the Feel No Pain special rule instead gain +1 to all Feel No Pain rolls for the rest of the game".

The FNP ability isn't altered, regardless of source. The ROLL is. So you roll a 1, and get to add 1 to it.

So thats a modifyer, wouldnt the set value over ride it?

Like I said the FNP special rule is FNP x+ with the x being either what is in his entry or the standard 5+. Corbulo does not have this he has "Corbulo is passed n a 2 plus".

But then Its not a charactics so wont follow the rules for modifers and such. It is a interesting one for sure!.

No. It would not. You see Corbulo passes his feel no pain on a dice result of 2+. When under the effect of the warp flame he is unable to roll the dice result of 1 and can only roll 2 - 7 as his dice result is modified by adding 1 to whatever he rolls before you check to see if he passed his roll. RAW this is not even a grey zone, it is plainly possible. Note that as this doesn't make him unkillable its not even that big of a deal even if this DOES work as intended.

The modifiers/set values rules also apply to characteristics... armour save is a characteristic, but FNP isn't.

 Super Ready wrote:
The modifiers/set values rules also apply to characteristics... armour save is a characteristic, but FNP isn't.

Which doesn't matter for this discussion.
Warpflame let's them add +1 to any FnP roll, it doesn't improve the roll at all.

So Corbulo doesn't get a 1+ FnP.
He has a FnP (2+) and you roll with D6+1, so even a 1 becomes a 2, therefore overwriting all the "1 is always a fail"-rules even if they applied.

 StarTrotter wrote:
If this is a response to me I have already retracted most of my counter argument. It isn't worth it especially for one character but please don't expect every last one of us to know the ins and outs of every single army in existence as well as the notion that one can RaW get a 1+ fnp which I assume quite a few players think is absolutely impossible as people are used to 1+ always working not being a thing

Naah, it's not just a response to you.
I've seen a couple of people claiming they'd walk away or refuse to play against them.

As a Daemon player you should know better than using those spells on a FnP-group.
Could you imagine how bad it would be if you faced 4 termies or 9 ASM's with a 4+ FnP? Those things are way scarier than a 1+ Corbulo.

The key with warpflame is to overkill units because as daemon player I know how darn good a 4+ FNP is. If facing corbulo I would probably tempt a bolt of change shot with perfect timing against him hoping for a 3 or more for str with locus of course.


Against a DC squd with corbulo at the front though, not sure what I would do against that if using just horrors....

That's the trouble with putting all your eggs in one basket, and just another case of mono-God being hard-countered. If you have some variety in the list (or heck, even a Lord of Change or Flying Prince) then you've got something ideal to take Corbulo on.

I think you will find most people will simply play it as a 1 fails. I dont see this as being a big issue.

Fragile wrote:
I think you will find most people will simply play it as a 1 fails. I dont see this as being a big issue.

The big issue would be that those people are cheating because they don't like how the rules work.
Unless that houseruling was unanimous..

Kangodo wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
The modifiers/set values rules also apply to characteristics... armour save is a characteristic, but FNP isn't.

Which doesn't matter for this discussion.
Warpflame let's them add +1 to any FnP roll, it doesn't improve the roll at all.

So Corbulo doesn't get a 1+ FnP.
He has a FnP (2+) and you roll with D6+1, so even a 1 becomes a 2, therefore overwriting all the "1 is always a fail"-rules even if they applied.

 StarTrotter wrote:
If this is a response to me I have already retracted most of my counter argument. It isn't worth it especially for one character but please don't expect every last one of us to know the ins and outs of every single army in existence as well as the notion that one can RaW get a 1+ fnp which I assume quite a few players think is absolutely impossible as people are used to 1+ always working not being a thing

Naah, it's not just a response to you.
I've seen a couple of people claiming they'd walk away or refuse to play against them.

As a Daemon player you should know better than using those spells on a FnP-group.
Could you imagine how bad it would be if you faced 4 termies or 9 ASM's with a 4+ FnP? Those things are way scarier than a 1+ Corbulo.

Oh trust me it is more difficult then you expect I once played against a Nurgle daemon army that used rewards to get 5+ fnp and also used slaanesh whilst I had bloodletters and pink horrors. Sadly I ended up giving a giant blob of plague bearers a 2+ fnp (they never failed it!) simply because of the fact that I simply couldn't do anything else at the low points cost with no chance for MC or even diverse options of models . It was painful but I somehow won simply because by the time he made it to me I had grinded him to bits.

Kangodo wrote:

Fragile wrote:
I think you will find most people will simply play it as a 1 fails. I dont see this as being a big issue.

The big issue would be that those people are cheating because they don't like how the rules work.
Unless that houseruling was unanimous..

So how would you handle Hyperios in CC, accept you can roll to wound and hit them automatically but you cannot assign wounds to the gun models as per RAW?. There are a few broken mechanics in the game sadly, and a few unclear one unless you are trying to say the rules are perfect?.

It might help if you explained what Hyperion did.

What is unclear about Corbulo btw?
I would understand the discussion if it turned it into a FnP (1+), but it doesn't do that.
The FnP stays at 2+ and you add 1 to the dice-roll.

There is also a difference between "This rule contradicts other rules" and "I don't like what these rules do" if we are talking about 'broken mechanics'.
This doesn't ruin the game, it hardly changes your chance to win and it doesn't break any rules.

As what I said they are automated artillery so you get permission to hit automatically and roll to wound but it then says to follow all rules for artillery found in the brb (with the exceptions for above). BRB states you cannot allocate wounds to the gun models.

Sorry but corbulo automatically passing all non insta death wounds would break games for a lot of people a unit that controlled by the right player would walk over most standard daemon units.

Not really. Hit him with a Str8 attack and he'll just go away.

Its your own fault for making Corbulo invincible against anything that doesn't cause ID. Don't cast that power on him if you don't want it to happen.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Not really. Hit him with a Str8 attack and he'll just go away.

Its your own fault for making Corbulo invincible against anything that doesn't cause ID. Don't cast that power on him if you don't want it to happen.

So daemons have two always str8 shooting attacks (soul grinder and skull cannon), the rest are either rewards or psyhic powers. Plus skull cannon is only ap5. Yea just shoot him with a str8 to LOS very easy isnt it. If it was that easy units like the screamer council would not exsist.

Try melee. You got plenty of Str8+ there right? Or a force weapon to the face.

Or, don't put yourself in this situation at all by casting that power on him.

MarkyMark wrote:
As what I said they are automated artillery so you get permission to hit automatically and roll to wound but it then says to follow all rules for artillery found in the brb (with the exceptions for above). BRB states you cannot allocate wounds to the gun models.

That seems more like two things contradicting each other.
But that discussion is for another thread.

Sorry but corbulo automatically passing all non insta death wounds would break games for a lot of people a unit that controlled by the right player would walk over most standard daemon units.

Corbulo leading a group of terminators already needs around 400+ shots to kill them, it won't make that much of a difference
And like people said: Don't use those attack on him, spread the word!

 Grey Templar wrote:
Try melee. You got plenty of Str8+ there right? Or a force weapon to the face.

Or, don't put yourself in this situation at all by casting that power on him.

Nope, like I said either rewards psyhic powers or smash attacks are the only way to get str8 or more in melee for daemons (other then aforementioned soul grinder).


How is that contridiciting itself?, you roll to wound then you allocate wounds, as per shooting and close combat rules, its no different.

It's not just a psy power it's also on flamers and yes it means that he "auto" passes you still roll but add 1 to the result. And yes it can still be negated by ID or remove from play effects. To be honest I've not come up against him yet.

 Super Ready wrote:


So there we are - fully analysed, what happens is you still make the roll (it's not an automatic pass, after all) but if you do roll a 1, you can then add 1 to that roll and it becomes a 2+, therefore passing. HOWEVER - as already mentioned - as it's not an automatic pass, you can still kill Corbulo by way of Instant Death, which will not allow him to make the roll at all.

It is an automatic Pass. FNP is ignored in the case of ID.

I said automatically passed, not invincible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NickOnwezen wrote:
No. It would not. You see Corbulo passes his feel no pain on a dice result of 2+. When under the effect of the warp flame he is unable to roll the dice result of 1 and can only roll 2 - 7 as his dice result is modified by adding 1 to whatever he rolls before you check to see if he passed his roll. RAW this is not even a grey zone, it is plainly possible. Note that as this doesn't make him unkillable its not even that big of a deal even if this DOES work as intended.

Warp Flame improves your FNP value by one, making the needed number one lower. It does NOT add 1 to every roll of an FNP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skullhammer wrote:
It's not just a psy power it's also on flamers and yes it means that he "auto" passes you still roll but add 1 to the result. And yes it can still be negated by ID or remove from play effects. To be honest I've not come up against him yet.

edited for language
Reds8n

I play BA, I would never play it this way. To me its petty and un-sportsmen like. I see the arguments for RAW, so far as I can tell he technically gets the save on a 1+ but I do not believe this is an intended situation/result. The way I see it this individual instance is not something worth refusing a game over however a player who would insist on this RAW interpretation and use it in a game is not someone I want to play with.

Spartak wrote:
I play BA, I would never play it this way. To me its petty and un-sportsmen like. I see the arguments for RAW, so far as I can tell he technically gets the save on a 1+ but I do not believe this is an intended situation/result. The way I see it this individual instance is not something worth refusing a game over however a player who would insist on this RAW interpretation and use it in a game is not someone I want to play with.

Reasonable. They taught me a lot in school. No one ever prepared me for "reasonable."

Spartak wrote:
I play BA, I would never play it this way. To me its petty and un-sportsmen like. I see the arguments for RAW, so far as I can tell he technically gets the save on a 1+ but I do not believe this is an intended situation/result. The way I see it this individual instance is not something worth refusing a game over however a player who would insist on this RAW interpretation and use it in a game is not someone I want to play with.

This is about RAW. HYWPI is rather irrelevant, I'm afraid. I will take advantage of this if I'm thrown under the bus against a Flying Circus. What's petty is thinking that playing the game the way it is written is unsportsmanlike.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Spartak wrote:
I play BA, I would never play it this way. To me its petty and un-sportsmen like. I see the arguments for RAW, so far as I can tell he technically gets the save on a 1+ but I do not believe this is an intended situation/result. The way I see it this individual instance is not something worth refusing a game over however a player who would insist on this RAW interpretation and use it in a game is not someone I want to play with.

This is about RAW. HYWPI is rather irrelevant, I'm afraid. I will take advantage of this if I'm thrown under the bus against a Flying Circus. What's petty is thinking that playing the game the way it is written is unsportsmanlike.

sportsmanship
: conduct (as fairness, respect for one's opponent, and graciousness in winning or losing) becoming to one participating in a sport

If the way it is written (RAW, 6th ed rules, 5th ed codex) is not meant to address the situation at hand being TFG and "taking advantage" of it is what is unsportsmanlike.
It is in no way petty to decide that another players attitude or outlook is a bad fit for your own and avoid games with that player in the future.

Spartak wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

This is about RAW. HYWPI is rather irrelevant, I'm afraid. I will take advantage of this if I'm thrown under the bus against a Flying Circus. What's petty is thinking that playing the game the way it is written is unsportsmanlike.

sportsmanship
: conduct (as fairness, respect for one's opponent, and graciousness in winning or losing) becoming to one participating in a sport

Playing to the rules is poor conduct?

If the way it is written (RAW, 6th ed rules, 5th ed codex) is not meant to address the situation at hand being TFG and "taking advantage" of it is what is unsportsmanlike.
It is in no way petty to decide that another players attitude or outlook is a bad fit for your own and avoid games with that player in the future.

Arguing Ad Nauseum that this way of playing the rules is unsportsmanlike doesn't mean that the way of playing the rule is wrong, TFG or unsportsmanlike. It means that you're using a subjective term to describe an event you don't agree with.
The fact that it advantages a player doesn't matter. Is it any less an advantage if a Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield Terminator gets a 1+ FNP - exactly the way the Daemon's codex suggests - simply because he doesn't start with a 2+ FNP?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Warp Flame improves your FNP value by one, making the needed number one lower. It does NOT add 1 to every roll of an FNP.

Did you actually read the Codex?
...hell, did you bother reading the bit of the Codex I already quoted twice that proves this wrong?

It adds one to your FNP roll. Here it is again:
"If the (Toughness) test is passed (...) Any models in the unit that already have the Feel No Pain special rule instead gain +1 to all Feel No Pain *ROLLS* for the rest of the game".

Emphasis mine, because apparently it was needed.

A lot of us won't actually attempt to use the loopholes we find here... I know I still won't be taking Corbulo any time soon... but discussion of HIWPI isn't what the board's here for. Half the time we're also debunking loopholes that others *think* they've found, or have had used against them (how many times have we seen "I wasn't sure about this that I saw today"?).

In this particular case, it's already been covered a few times exactly how unlikely this situation is to come up. You have to have Blood Angels vs Daemons, both sides have to take specific units, and those specific units have to face off in a manner that is already very unlikely (if Corbulo is tanking at the front, he has to fail his FNP for the test to apply). If you're a Tzeentchian Daemons player then it's up to you to know how your own rules work, and if you engineer this very unlikely set of circumstances into being then it's nobody's fault but your own.

It's not even that broken if it happens - Corbulo isn't exactly murderous and he's on foot, so he won't be with a quick unit either.

With all that said... if you don't like the loophole discussions and you've already left once... why come back to complain? No-one's forcing you to post.

 Super Ready wrote:
A lot of us won't actually attempt to use the loopholes we find here... I know I still won't be taking Corbulo any time soon... but discussion of HIWPI isn't what the board's here for. Half the time we're also debunking loopholes that others *think* they've found, or have had used against them (how many times have we seen "I wasn't sure about this that I saw today"?).

In this particular case, it's already been covered a few times exactly how unlikely this situation is to come up. You have to have Blood Angels vs Daemons, both sides have to take specific units, and those specific units have to face off in a manner that is already very unlikely (if Corbulo is tanking at the front, he has to fail his FNP for the test to apply). If you're a Tzeentchian Daemons player then it's up to you to know how your own rules work, and if you engineer this very unlikely set of circumstances into being then it's nobody's fault but your own.

It's not even that broken if it happens - Corbulo isn't exactly murderous and he's on foot, so he won't be with a quick unit either.

With all that said... if you don't like the loophole discussions and you've already left once... why come back to complain? No-one's forcing you to post.

I think HIWPI is a important part of these boards. Many times when a counter intuative rule where RAW is clear comes up on the polls most people choose to play it differently. The game goes to great lenghs to not allow models to become invincible, or near invincible, this is a very spercific situation which is not covered and IMO looks like a oversight.
Ofcourse, I would'nt expect it to draw out that way in a tournament, but I would never play autopassing FNP in a friendly, no matter what the means.

Super pro-tip: Don't be so stupid to use a psychic power against his unit!
Corbulo can ONLY get that FnP-upgrade if YOU decide to give it to your opponent.

There is nothing counter-intuitive about this ruling whatsoever.
All we have are people who think that "a 1 is always a fail" is actually a rule and they are wrong.
"It doesn't feel right" is not an argument to exclude this.
Those Daemons themselves can take a 2++ with rerolls, that doesn't feel right to me either. But it doesn't change the fact that it's a real rule.

It's kind of annoying to be called 'TFG' and 'unsportsmanlike' when you are playing one of the worst codices, with a character that isn't used in any of the good lists, against an opponent that should totally crush you because you have this "cheesy trick" that can only be activated by your opponent.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Warp Flame improves your FNP value by one, making the needed number one lower. It does NOT add 1 to every roll of an FNP.

"Any models in the unit that already have the Feel No Pain special rule instead gain +1 to all Feel No Pain rolls for the rest of the game."
Which part of that line is unclear to you?

Does it actually matter on the particular wording, if the end result, autopass on FNP, is the same?