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Hello everyone, as the title of the thread suggests with the release of the impending Space Marine book I have decided to go through with the plan to make my long awaited Black Dragons Space Marine army. Now for those who do not know much about the Black Dragons (Warning Alot of Information in here!):

-They are part of the 21st Cursed Founding
-They have a geneseed mutation which causes bony growths to grow on their forearms and foreheads.
-If the mutations are sever enough the chapter takes the most mutated ones, has them sheath their forearm growths in admantium and use them as close combat weapons, theses guys are known as the "Dragon Claws"
-Rumored to be a successor of the Salamanders Chapter.

Now after reading the Black Library book "Death of Antagonis" (which I understand helps fill out the fluff of the 40k universe) this is what i have gotten so far. I will not reveal any plot lines etc, just organisational and tactical observations.

ORGANIZATION

-They state multiple times that they are NOT a Codex Chapter

-The first squad in the company is the command squad with the 1st Sergeant the company 2 i/c. in addition, this command/first squad is obviously more than 5 men strong as it appears to break into combat squads at one point and some of them utilize terminator armor (similar to a mix armor approach of Space Wolves).

-Squads are not named after the Sergeant in charge, rather they have specific and set names

-Those with mutation develop the horn growths on head and arm as is already known, however, some also experience mutation of parts of the skin towards scales. Those with a higher degree of mutation seem to have this and every mutation is unique. in addition, the horn growths on the arms are retractable in some cases and not retractable in others and some dragons do not have any mutation what so ever; it is speculated that the un-mutated warriors that provide the geneseed tithes allowing them to remain in the Imperium.

-A form of 'over mutation' is some times experienced where the marine in question turns into a rage filled dragon like monster (very similar to the Space Wolf Wulfen, Blood Angel Death Company or even Chaos Possessed Marines . It is implied that this has an effect on sanity as well. Certainly these marines are held captive away from the rest of the others and are only released into combat so they can "die in the service of the emperor"

-The Dragon Claws are made up of the more severely mutated dragons with forearms and wrist growths of a sufficient size to be of use in battle as blades. in addition they seem to have the scale skin mutations on a regular basis. They are never mentioned as being 'elite' and seem to take the position of assault squads within the standard battle company, with no rank above that of other astartes.

TACTICS:

-No specific mention is made of any favouritism in weapons or tactics. however, marines seemed to be armed with flamers on a regular basis with lots of Tactical Marines with bolters being heavily utilised

-It is explicitly stated that the number of vehicles available to the company is few as they are a fleet based chapter, while it is not clear that this applies to the whole chapter it is implied the whole chapter is in a similar state. In the book it mentions that the Vehicles are only ever utilized when the need is absolutely dire and there is only mention of a single Dreadnought, however it is empty (but at the end of the book it suggests that one of the Characters will be entombed in it).

-Drop pods are in extensive use during almost all engagements for both the Dragon Claws and standard Tactical Marines.

-Dragon Claws are explicitly compared to assault squads in one passage and whilst it explains a slightly different tactical use for them, they are very much in that role. In addition, it appears that some have bolters, but never is one of them cited as using the chainsword. Also, there has yet to be any engagement where they did not use jump packs.

-The talon' tactic is specifically cited, which seems to be a sort of MSU style approach using combat squads, speed of advance and multiple simultaneous angles of attack to overwhelm foes.

-Air Support is present throughout the book in almost all their battles, primarily in the form of a Thunderhawk Gunship, at one point the Dragon Claws jump out of the Thunderhawk into the middle of combat.

PERSONALITY:

-The Chapter takes heed of civilian casualties in its operations and takes care to avoid them if possible, however it will ignore this is situation demands

-They view their mutation as a constant reminder of the need for purity of action; the standard transcendence of physical through deed. They are also referred to as at one point "The Emperors Monsters" and use their mutation to strike fear into their opponents.

-They are fully aware of the inquisition's focus on them, and of the ordo malleus; they are not supposed to know any of this.

-They have a nemesis (and are the nemesis in turn) for a band of renegades/Chaos Space Marines known as the Swords of Epiphany. can't say more without becoming embroiled in the plot

Now with the above information both from the "Death of Antagonis" and information from several websites I have been contemplating which book to run/create my army of Black Dragons and this is where I need your help as I do not know which one to utilize. Let me know what you guys think with the above information and anything else you want to add. And as usual any and all comments are more then welcome and are heavily encouraged, thanks again guys!

One thing I want to point out:

"They have a nemesis (and are the nemesis in turn) for a band of renegades/Chaos Space Marines known as the Swords of Epiphany. can't say more without becoming embroiled in the plot"

As a writer... do not do this . If you cannot sell your plot to someone in a summary, nobody is going to be interested in getting into the plot deeper in the first place. This is such an easy thing to fall into, and it just kills interest in the story. As the writer, this is your job to make this interesting and make me WANT to learn more about it as a reader. When I see something like this, it makes me think one of these things:

A. You have not thought about it, and are namedropping to artifically increase interest.
B. You think you are hiding spoilers, but in actuality you are snubbing intrigue.
C. You are not confident in the story, or are afraid of negative feedback. Embrace it and be bold. Don't try to worm around it.

All of them are not going to help you, and it'll do you a huge good if you laid it out to us.

 curran12 wrote:
One thing I want to point out:

"They have a nemesis (and are the nemesis in turn) for a band of renegades/Chaos Space Marines known as the Swords of Epiphany. can't say more without becoming embroiled in the plot"

As a writer... do not do this . If you cannot sell your plot to someone in a summary, nobody is going to be interested in getting into the plot deeper in the first place. This is such an easy thing to fall into, and it just kills interest in the story. As the writer, this is your job to make this interesting and make me WANT to learn more about it as a reader. When I see something like this, it makes me think one of these things:

A. You have not thought about it, and are namedropping to artifically increase interest.
B. You think you are hiding spoilers, but in actuality you are snubbing intrigue.
C. You are not confident in the story, or are afraid of negative feedback. Embrace it and be bold. Don't try to worm around it.

All of them are not going to help you, and it'll do you a huge good if you laid it out to us.

Um... not sure if you or I are confused, but he's not writing anything. The "Swords of Epiphany" part is from a BL novel and he's just not spoiling things.

To the OP: All you've posted is correct. Im not sure what input youre looking for though.

I thought he meant the plot of his own chapter?

honestly, id run them out of the BA codex. they seem assault based. plus the Death Company could be the guys with more mutations, or the ones that are barrly more then beasts, i dont remember what they are called in the book.

 curran12 wrote:
One thing I want to point out:

"They have a nemesis (and are the nemesis in turn) for a band of renegades/Chaos Space Marines known as the Swords of Epiphany. can't say more without becoming embroiled in the plot"

As a writer... do not do this . If you cannot sell your plot to someone in a summary, nobody is going to be interested in getting into the plot deeper in the first place. This is such an easy thing to fall into, and it just kills interest in the story. As the writer, this is your job to make this interesting and make me WANT to learn more about it as a reader. When I see something like this, it makes me think one of these things:

A. You have not thought about it, and are namedropping to artifically increase interest.
B. You think you are hiding spoilers, but in actuality you are snubbing intrigue.
C. You are not confident in the story, or are afraid of negative feedback. Embrace it and be bold. Don't try to worm around it.

All of them are not going to help you, and it'll do you a huge good if you laid it out to us.

First of all...what the hell are you talking about? I just mentioned them as having an foe they have encounted in the book which is a group of Chaos Space Marines to fill out the fluff and history of the Black Dragons so I have no idea what you are getting at or what you mean. Not confident in the story, namedropping? This does not to relate to the the thread at all in any sense so fail to see what you are getting at.

 jifel wrote:


To the OP: All you've posted is correct. Im not sure what input youre looking for though.

Sorry for not making myself clearer, basically I am trying to figure out the following:

-What Space Marine Book or Books (not counting the new Codex Space Marines Coming out as there is no info on them yet) do you think would give me a good and strong list to create my Black Dragons army in regards to the information that I have gathered above. I have been debating Space Wolves with Blood Angels Allies or even a Dark Angles list with allies, just new to Marines and trying to figure out what would be a good fit in regards to the above information. I want to cover all my bases just in case the new Marine Book would not be a good fit to create my Black Dragons army.

 Brother Sergeant Bob wrote:
honestly, id run them out of the BA codex. they seem assault based. plus the Death Company could be the guys with more mutations, or the ones that are barrly more then beasts, i dont remember what they are called in the book.

The "Blessed"

 curran12 wrote:
I thought he meant the plot of his own chapter?

The Black Dragons are not a new chapter. They've been around since at least 3rd edition.

I still have my chapter approved with the Cursed founding Space marine lists (which they need to make a supplement) anyways heres what i got from the list

From the original list the FOC looked like this

HQ: SM captain/chapter master, Command squad, Chaplain, Librarian, 0-1 Cursed knights

Elite: Dread, Abominations, 0-1 terminator, 0-1 assault terminators

Troops: Tac squad

Fast attack: Assault squads, 0-1 Bike squad

HS: Devastator squad, 0-1 Land raider, 0-2 predators (1 annihilator and 1 destructor), 0-1 vindicator, 0-1 Whirlwind.

So going with whats in the Chapter approved and what you listed above your best bet is probably blood angels (or one of the supplements comming out for the new SM codex)

If you chose blood angels

-A form of 'over mutation' is some times experienced where the marine in question turns into a rage filled dragon like monster (very similar to the Space Wolf Wulfen, Blood Angel Death Company or even Chaos Possessed Marines . It is implied that this has an effect on sanity as well. Certainly these marines are held captive away from the rest of the others and are only released into combat so they can "die in the service of the emperor"

Abombinations = Death company

-The Dragon Claws are made up of the more severely mutated dragons with forearms and wrist growths of a sufficient size to be of use in battle as blades. in addition they seem to have the scale skin mutations on a regular basis. They are never mentioned as being 'elite' and seem to take the position of assault squads within the standard battle company, with no rank above that of other astartes.

Standard assault marines with a Jet-packed priest thrown in to make them better in assault.

And then use Foot sloggin vanguard veterans for Melee based Cursed knights or Sternguard for shooting based Cursed knights.

And don't use any Imperial force as allies.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
I still have my chapter approved with the Cursed founding Space marine lists (which they need to make a supplement) anyways heres what i got from the list

From the original list the FOC looked like this

HQ: SM captain/chapter master, Command squad, Chaplain, Librarian, 0-1 Cursed knights

Elite: Dread, Abominations, 0-1 terminator, 0-1 assault terminators

Troops: Tac squad

Fast attack: Assault squads, 0-1 Bike squad

HS: Devastator squad, 0-1 Land raider, 0-2 predators (1 annihilator and 1 destructor), 0-1 vindicator, 0-1 Whirlwind.

So going with whats in the Chapter approved and what you listed above your best bet is probably blood angels (or one of the supplements comming out for the new SM codex)

Thank you for finding this! I have been looking everywhere for a copy of the Chapter Approved (even online) to no avail. With this model and what restrictions are listed there in combination with the book I will see what I can come up with and post it on here!