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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 06:31:50
Subject: Re:1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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Please would everyone stick to the original topic.
Arguments about infiltrating Shadowsun should be taken up in the YMDC forum.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 08:05:45
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Seriously AnonambientLight learn the game play against some competent players. I would also advise learning how the statistics work and reading posts you are replying to. Many of your comments will look very foolish to anyone that reads Zagman's quotes that you posted or understands the maths.
This is s competitive list for Tournament play, to be able to help someone with their list in that environment you need understand the environment and the game at that level. If you illustrate with your posts that you don't understand that level of play expect people to be dismissive of your posts. Which is what has happened here. Fighting your "side" when you illustrate you don't understand what is being said derails the thread and as stated will make you look foolish, which I'm sure you're not and don't want to appear that way.
So please drop this and try to learn about the game more. As you need more understanding of the game before the army list forum can help you improve.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/01 23:23:15
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Water-Caste Negotiator
Louisiana
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FlingitNow wrote:Seriously AnonambientLight learn the game play against some competent players. I would also advise learning how the statistics work and reading posts you are replying to. Many of your comments will look very foolish to anyone that reads Zagman's quotes that you posted or understands the maths. This is s competitive list for Tournament play, to be able to help someone with their list in that environment you need understand the environment and the game at that level. If you illustrate with your posts that you don't understand that level of play expect people to be dismissive of your posts. Which is what has happened here. Fighting your "side" when you illustrate you don't understand what is being said derails the thread and as stated will make you look foolish, which I'm sure you're not and don't want to appear that way. So please drop this and try to learn about the game more. As you need more understanding of the game before the army list forum can help you improve. When did i ever say that Zag's statistics were incorrect? Find that for me please. I assumed that all of his math is correct. The stuff im quoting is Zag misleading posters by changing up the way he presents things. Are you being purposefully obtuse here? A DS suit needs a to arrive on a 3+. A riptide needs a 3+ to activate nova charge. Same % is it not? A riptide with an ECPA, PER ZAG'S OWN MATH shows that the Nova AND the Get's Hot has a greater than 75% chance to activate. Is this not superior statistically to a DS suit? Yes or no. Then to pen AV14, is around 40% per math i found on another site, which i listed for you guys. Once it pens, it has a +1 on the damage table which helps neutralize that threat. Here Zag once again used misleading posts to suggest the Riptide would not be effective giving the math for a riptide to completely destroy AV14. That's like saying DS suits are not good because they have to roll a 3+ to come out, then land properly, then fire and hit, then pen. And then, only figuring out the chance to do all of that + 100% destruction. If that's not out right misrepresentation of the situation, i don't know what is. If AV14 is not a threat, then you have a really great long range pie plate option that can easily kill MEq with ML support or deal with hordes as you even said.... FlingitNow wrote:Cheers Zagman. My concern is that against Horde armies (and I think Nids are coming in January) that the Fusionsuits become useless without the flamers. Wouldn't it be great if you had a large blast pie plate that could take out MEq and ID T4 models? What model in the Tau army can do that guy? And gee, is it really a good idea to try to JSJ suits out of charge range once you use the flamers? Will they make it most of the time? Heck, I don't even risk trying to JSJ crisis suits from Rapid Fire range on plasma. It's too risky. On top of that, a lot of nid models have fleet. You're more than likely going to end up in assault if you try to use flamers on them as a means of horde control... Finally, Zag ALWAYS refereed to the riptide DESTROYING a AV14 in one hit. He doesn't mention other effects. That's EXTREMELY disingenuous as i have pointed out that you can neutralize, or stop a huge threat turn 1. So, i say ONCE AGAIN, for clarification on this thread. PROBLEMS WITH THIS LIST AV14 and Long Range AT Problems AV14 is still a threat and you are relying on a T2, possible T3 answer. This is unacceptable as that will be too late to stop the AV14 contents from getting to your lines. You have NO answer to anything armor that is out ranged by your HYMP Bsides except T2 possible T3 FB suits. Then, you have the possibility of the opponent simply spreading out his forces so you're forced to DS two areas, making it worse for you to stop those threats. You have NO backup to the suits should they fail completely. This is a weakness to the list. HYMP and Their Role You have them doing two, possibly three jobs: AT (on 5's and 6's...), AA, and possibly Hoard duty. As i pointed out before, and as another posted pointed out as well, you are going to have a heck of a time killing hell turkeys because of their saves and your lack of shooting on the target because you don't have skyfire. You are also relying on those bsides to deal with the armor that shows up in that same list. You are asking your bsides to do too much work This is a weakness to the list. Gross Exaggerations By You FlingitNow wrote: The Earth Caste Pilot whilst giving better odds on the Nova further increases the cost so I'd have to drop more than the Broadsides. Plus he dovetails better with HBC anyway. Plus that means more shooting at my troops as the shooting that would have gone at those Broadsides will now go at Crisis Teams as most people ignore Riptides particularly Solo Riptides. By replacing one bside unit with a riptide, this will force the commander to attack the crisis suits. How do you figure? FlingitNow wrote: If I wanted to put Riptides in this list Is drop all the Broadsides for 3 Riptides and then take double MP on all the suits. But that list would struggle against air and AV14 far more than my list... Another poster has also pointed out why your advice would make the list worse. Yet you don't listen and start spouting stuff that anyone with a good handle on how 40k works could tell you is wrong... And you're suggesting that my broadsides can't deal with AT and AA if my opponent brings both and your solution is drop broadsides and take a unit that is neither good at AT or AA. Double MP on all the suits? Are you joking me? You only need, as i pointed out to you already, one squad of 3 with double MP and VT. Which is CHEAPER than Bsides, for the same shots fired, with VT. That would easily cover your AA needs. Easily. You have a good handle? Really? So you're telling me that it's viable to have, what, 12 suits with double MP to handle AA? You're the one with the handle on how 40k works? FlingitNow wrote:Master of Manoeuvre works because as pointed out you can join a unit during deployment in 2 ways. Either by deploying within unit coherency with that unit or joining them in reserve. The first part makes it impossible to join an infiltrating character to a unit until it is too late for that unit to infiltrate. The later allows him to join that unit when you declare reserves and thus allows you to outflank them via MoM. Get it now? Likewise 1 site is not the entire internet any good rules forum will have the same argument. I've never been to a tournament that has allowed an infiltrating character to give infiltrate to a unit. Which is why i listed several sites with rules that backed up what i was suggesting... Considering how i had to beat Zag over the head with Gets Hot rules that simply required him to READ THE RULE (which i gave to him multiple times), i will never consult the YMDC forum on shadowsun and you can thank Zag for that. I'll take the general consensus of most warhammer oriented sites and say it's allowed. Besides, i did check out at least a few threads on the shadowsun topic. From the few that i did see, no one could really come to a consensus. You're Not Utilizing This List It's why i made you that other list. I pointed to 3 prominent warhammer sites that said Shadowsun can infiltrate with crisis suits. You're telling me i need to check YMDC.3 against sorta 1? No thanks. Tell me the math on that one pal. You're just taking advantage of crisis suits as troops. You're not using any of the unique SigSystems. The warlord traits totally blow for Enclaves. You're better off following my list (maybe put more work into the troops) or go Tau and Enclave BB. But whatever. Do what you want guy.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/09/02 01:11:56
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/02 01:55:32
Subject: Re:1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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AnonAmbientLight, The goal of the thread is to create a competitive all suits list without fielding a Riptide.
Your contribution is to insist that one must include a Riptide. Just in case you missed it, it says so right in the title. You have continued to troll this thread and waste time.
You are right, I misread one rule which would allow the ECPA to reroll the Gets Hot for the Nova Shot. But, that does not change my argument and only applies to the ECPA. I like Riptides and do field them, but the entire point of the OP's thread to to NOT utilize them.
The Riptide is not an effective source of Anti AV14.
66% chance of successful Nova, 89% with ECPA.
83% chance to avoid Gets Hot, 97% with the ECPA.
33% chance to score a Hit, 19% chance to miss with a Scatter(66%) or 13% chance to Miss.
30% chance to roll a 6 on 2d6, 26% chance to roll a 5
On a Pen, 17% chance of a Crew Shaken, 17% chance of a Crew Stunned, 17% chance of a Weapon Destroyed, 17% chance of an Immobilized, 33% chance of a Destroyed.
NonECPA
4.8% chance of Destruction
2.4% chance of Immobilized
2.4% chance of Weapon Destroyed
2.4% chance of Crew Stunned
2.4% chance of Crew Shaken
24% total chance of an HP being Removed
33% chance of Dealing a Wound to the Riptide.
ECPA
7.4% chance of Destruction
3.7% chance of Immobilized
3.7% chance of Weapon Destroyed
3.7% chance of Crew Stunned
3.7% chance of Crew Shaken
41% total chance of an HP being Removed
11% chance of Dealing a Wound to the Riptide.
This assumes no cover.
A Unit of 2 Fusion suits DSing(Using best approximations for Scatter ect.) has ~40% chance of Destroying AV14 on the Turn it drops. If it doesn't scatter it has a 58% chance of Destroying AV14 on the Turn in drops, this can greatly be increased with Marker light Support.
So, even if we assume that every scatter makes the Fusion Drop useless, it's still better than the ECPA Riptide.
Oh, and he has two of them for the same amount of points as that Riptide which puts the dual Fusion Suits at about 10x the capability of destroying the AV14 threat. I've focused on destroyed because its a lot more work to figure the rest out constantly and you've shown a great disregard for the effort regardless.
Now, will you please stop trying to twist my statistics. They clearly show that a Riptide, even an ECPA Riptide will need to concentrate on an AV14 Vehicle at range for an entire game before he can statistically handle it. The Riptide is not good Anti AV14, in fact its RIppleFire TL Fusion Blaster is its only effective AT weapon and that requires closing on said vehicle and is a T3 Threat(Irrelevant in your mind).
The whole goal of the thread was to create a suits list without a Riptide, you offered AV14 as a major problem. The two Fusion suits are this list's counter to AV14. A counter which is significantly more effective than your offered solution, a solution which didn't even take into account the title of the thread.
I don't know if I can be any more clear.
As to Shadowsun and Infiltrate, all you need to do is read the relevant rules, the RAW is clear. Something you've accused me of. Hypocrite. Actually there is a thread about it right now on YMDC, the general consensus is that you cannot indeed do it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/02 10:49:50
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Well we tried explain it to you and you didn't listen. We tried showing you the maths and you didn't understand. So I tried to be nice and it didn't work. So time to change tac:
Shadowsun can most defiantly infiltrate a bodyguard squad. She can also infiltrate a riptide too...if you wanted
This proves you can't read the rule book. Well done
And wait, 30 shots? How? 2 broadsides = 8 S7 shots and 4 drones = 8 S7. That's 16 shots for one squad. Must be another gross exaggeration coming from you, and with no ML support half those shots are going to be BS2. But you like rolling for 5s.
 Someone doesn't even know the basic equipment of a Broadside. So 24 shots from 1 unit at 190 points the suggested replacement is 235 points. But you don't even know that 235 is a bigger number than 190  which means dropping 3-4 drones and/or other equipment making up 6-8 shots meaning 30 shots gone from the list.
Wait, 5% chance to kill AV14? You said it was 18.5% last time #(when I was talking about chance to kill AV13)#. Which is it?
Wait someone doesn't know that AV13 and AV14 are different
What if you have flyers and other AV on the board? You're giving your Bsides a lot of work to do.
Someone doesn't know that 10MLs makes 4 MPs and 8 Fusion blasters pretty good AA  They also don't know 4 Bs5 MPs and 8 Fusion blasters are good AT.
AV14 and Long Range AT Problems
AV14 is still a threat and you are relying on a T2, possible T3 answer. This is unacceptable as that will be too late to stop the AV14 contents from getting to your lines.
 Some one doesn't even know the Tau codex. They have no effective way to deal with AV14 other than fusion. So using the most competitive codex out there is unacceptable to you
You have NO answer to anything armor that is out ranged by your HYMP Bsides except T2 possible T3 FB suits.
So 4 bs5 MPs are no threat to AV  . Also I have a volume S5 squad and S6 squad to help against lower AV. But reading my list is clearly beyond your comprehension level...
Then, you have the possibility of the opponent simply spreading out his forces so you're forced to DS two areas, making it worse for you to stop those threats.
You have NO backup to the suits should they fail completely.
Some one doesn't know 2 units is a bigger number than 1  . Well that explains why you don't understand the maths we've posted as you clearly can't even count to two.
This is a weakness to the list.
This is a weakness to the Tau Codex  which obvious you can't read as you can't even count to two.
HYMP and Their Role
You have them doing two, possibly three jobs: AT (on 5's and 6's...), AA, and possibly Hoard duty.
The fact you think relying on 5s and 6s for the Broadsides to do AT further illustrated how you have absolutely no understanding of how the game works  I mean you think relying on 5s and 6s with 16 dice is poor AT but with 2 dice pick the highest it is an effective way of dealing with AV14    Yes the Sides do those 3 roles. Lots of my list also helps with those roles, broadsides also murder TEQ and MEQ what they kill will depend on my opponents army. I have 3 units of Broadsides and 4 other AT units (each of which could do AA with ML support) that's 7 units (I know you can't count that high) how many Flyers and Vehicles do you expect me to have to deal with in 1 turn?
You are asking your bsides to do too much work
This is a weakness to the list.
I have 3 units because I expect them to do well against lots of different targets. I have support for all those roles. This is a strength of this list  good units that deal with multiple threats are not a weakness
By replacing one bside unit with a riptide, this will force the commander to attack the crisis suits. How do you figure?
 so you can't even read or understand the quote you posted
You only need, as i pointed out to you already, one squad of 3 with double MP and VT. Which is CHEAPER than Bsides, for the same shots fired, with VT. That would easily cover your AA needs. Easily.
Oh dear counting fail again for the same number of shots my Sides are 71points your VT Crisis suits are 73. Why should I be surprised you don't know that 73 is more than 71. But you have come up with a great way to deal with Helldrakes  a 3+ save unit without interceptor  or are you comparing my 95 point Sides to the 73 point Crisis in which case you're claiming 8 is the same number as 4
So your answer is to let the Helldrakes kill a unit then attempt todeal with it. Without stating what you'd drop to pay for this unit
You have a good handle? Really? So you're telling me that it's viable to have, what, 12 suits with double MP to handle AA? You're the one with the handle on how 40k works?
Oh dear so 48 S7 shots couldn't deal with flyers?  you're also making assumptions about a list that has not even been posted
Considering how i had to beat Zag over the head with Gets Hot rules that simply required him to READ THE RULE (which i gave to him multiple times), i will never consult the YMDC forum on shadowsun and you can thank Zag for that. I'll take the general consensus of most warhammer oriented sites and say it's allowed
Why not just read the rules they are pretty clear. Is it because you are incapable of comprehending them as you have repeatedly illustrated on this thread? Just another way to illustrate that you can't even begin to think for yourself you just have to go by what some random sites say without actually reading the rules...
It's why i made you that other list. I pointed to 3 prominent warhammer sites that said Shadowsun can infiltrate with crisis suits. You're telling me i need to check YMDC.3 against sorta 1? No thanks. Tell me the math on that one pal.
I said check YMDC because it would explain the rules. Try getting someone who can read to read and explain the rules to you and you then perhaps you would understand. Popular opinion does not make something true, nor does 3 random pages you posted prove popular opinion. Something I am not surprised that your brain can not fathom
You're just taking advantage of crisis suits as troops. You're not using any of the unique SigSystems. The warlord traits totally blow for Enclaves. You're better off following my list (maybe put more work into the troops) or go Tau and Enclave BB.
Classic I must use the Farsight sig systems even though most are pants and the one good one is only for a unit that I don't need in this list.
Every bit on advice you have given has illustrated the following:
1. You can't read.
2. You don't understand maths
3. You can't count
4. You don't understand the Tau Codex
5. You don't understand how AT works in 6th Ed
6. You don't understand how AA works
7. You don't understand the strengths of Broadsides
8. You don't understand the strengths of the Riptide
9. You don't understand the competitive scene
10. You simple have no handle on any aspect of 40k, my advice is give up the hobby and go back to licking windows as that is a hobby that suits you better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/02 13:54:41
Subject: Re:1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Back to my previous point about army selection, i think you'd have a better time if you did something like this using normal Tau Codex:
1749 points total
Shadowsun: Warlord 135
Commander: target lock, drone controller, 2 Missile Pods, Marker Drone 140
Bodyguard 2 Crisis: 4 Melta, 2 Flamers, Neuroweb System Jammer, PENchip 151 (Infiltrate/outflank with shadowsun.)
Bodyguard 2 Crisis: 4 Melta, 2 Flamers, 134
3 Crisis: 6 Plasma, 156
3 Crisis: 6 Plasma, 156
3 Crisis: 5 Flamers, 1 Burstcannon, 101
6 FW 54
6 FW 54
10 Kroot 65
4 Marker Drones 56
5 Pathfinders 55
2 Broadsides: HYMP, EWO, 2 Missile Drones 164
2 Broadsides: HYMP, EWO, 2 Missile Drones 164
2 Broadsides: HYMP, EWO, 2 Missile Drones 164
So, you lose out on a commander with ML drones, and you lose 6 total missile drones. You also lose that squad of suits with all the burst cannons. But you gain a shadowsun that can infiltrate a squad of FB suits, just like you have them DS, but they get more surviability with +3 cover and 3D6 assault moves as well as some tricks to make their shooting extra strong.
The burst cannon crisis suits are made up a little bit with the troop options, and the lost ML drones are made up a little bit with normal Pathfinders. The kroot are there to outflank and maybe grab an objective. Troops choices are a bit weak though.
Well, look at this gem. Where is your Anti AV14 solution here? Oh, wait I see it. Fusion Suits, you were just trying to couple them illegally with Shadowsun. Even if legal(which its not), was not a T1 solution... unless you had 1st turn, and had LOS blocking terrain 12" away from the target, and your opponent was an idiot.
In your almighty wisdom, your proposed solution utilized something that is minimum a T2/3 solution and requires you to get shot for at least one turn before being able to deliver your payload. Your incompetence is staggering. Your other half I'm assuming is to DS. Your solution also can't even use the required Codex Supplement, and is costs over 50% more for arguably minimal benefit. You also significantly decreased the firepower of the list, its AA, and Light AT ability not to mention you reduced the scoring contingent of the list to effectively nothing. You managed to take a good list and make it terrible all while not utilizing the requested codex supplement and not correctly utilizing Infiltrate to boot. Did I mention effectively dropping his Force Multipliers as well? Garbage suggestion.
And you have the gall to attack us? You are incompetent.
Lets see this almighty Riptide list you are talking about, lets critique your list? I'm betting its a copy and paste netlist, that'd suit you. Though, knowing you I'd bet you've modified a netlist and made it worse.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/02 14:46:16
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Araqiel
London, UK
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FlingitNow wrote:
1. You can't read.
2. You don't understand maths
3. You can't count
4. You don't understand the Tau Codex
5. You don't understand how AT works in 6th Ed
6. You don't understand how AA works
7. You don't understand the strengths of Broadsides
8. You don't understand the strengths of the Riptide
9. You don't understand the competitive scene
10. You simple have no handle on any aspect of 40k, my advice is give up the hobby and go back to licking windows as that is a hobby that suits you better.
This being a prime example of knowing when it is time to not be nice, ouch!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/02 18:53:19
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Water-Caste Negotiator
Louisiana
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FlingitNow wrote: 1. You can't read. 2. You don't understand maths 3. You can't count 4. You don't understand the Tau Codex 5. You don't understand how AT works in 6th Ed 6. You don't understand how AA works 7. You don't understand the strengths of Broadsides 8. You don't understand the strengths of the Riptide 9. You don't understand the competitive scene 10. You simple have no handle on any aspect of 40k, my advice is give up the hobby and go back to licking windows as that is a hobby that suits you better. If i would have known you were going to take stuff out of context, i would have been more prepared. But please, take this list to a tournament please. I beg you. It will be fun to watch your Bsides get pie plated T1 by a IA riptide. That would be so ironic, wouldn't it. By the way, since you're berating me on reading, you didn't see the horde part i guess. Pie plating Meq isn't good enough for you? No wait, i got it. Your Bsides will take care of the hordes, plus the fliers, and the AV problems. Your Commanders will handle up everything else right? Because they are the only other things on your list besides T2 FB suits that can deal with fliers, or AV. Besides, at 36in range most fliers can just stay away from all your Bsides and still shoot easily. You'd have to position your Bsides right on the edge of your deployment zone for them to be of any use. Also, in case you are wondering about the riptide and shadowsun, i'll explain something to you so you're not confused. Pg33 of the Tau codex is the drone section. Ok? Let me know if i am going too fast for you. Ok, so in this section it states that drones are considered squad members for all purposes. Understood? That's why you have to roll LD when you lose one and it's 25% of your unit. Right? Ok, an IC can not join units that only have one model, and they can not join vehicles. But wait! The riptide is not only one model! The drones make it a unit of 3! Drones count as squad members, and the codex trumps the BRB. Until it is FAQ'd (which it hasn't yet), an IC can join a riptide. And yes, i wouldn't use this site for rules because A) This is not the only site out there. B) I literally had to shove Get's Hot rule down Zag's throat about four times before he swallowed it, and stopped mocking me for him being completely ignorant on rules that were given to him. C) If B is any indication of the type of posters i'll be in conversations with, i don't want to discuss anymore rules. I guess i'm the dumb one here for arguing with neckbeards.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/09/02 19:09:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/02 19:20:19
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Way to go to reinforce my argument AnonAmbientLight. Also why start an argument about ICs joining Riptides? Literally no one on here has said they can't. Plus using codex trumps BRB for that argument  there is no conflict between codex and BRB on that argument...
I really do pity you AnonAmbientLight.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/02 19:47:01
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot
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I think you both want the last word.
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Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/02 20:03:27
Subject: Re:1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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AnonAmbientLight wrote:
Bodyguard 2 Crisis: 4 Melta, 2 Flamers, Neuroweb System Jammer, PENchip 151 (Infiltrate/outflank with shadowsun.)
Shadowsun cannot infiltrate a bodyguard unit. Here is why.
Open your rulebook to the section about Independent Characters, specifically the paragraphs entitled "Joining and Leaving a Unit". In the first paragraph we can see that there are two ways to have an IC be a part of a unit at the beginning of the game (i.e Turn 1). The first of these is to be deployed in coherency (within 2") of the unit. Note that this does not say that you choose them to be joined and place the IC and unit down at the same time or ignore the usual deployment requirements of either unit, just that if you place an IC in coherency of another unit it can be a part of that unit from the beginning of the game. The second option is to hold the IC and unit in reserve, in which case they are joined and will come on together.
Now let's look at the deployment rules for Infiltrate. It clearly says that units with Infiltrate are deployed after all other units. As your IC can only be a member of a unit (and so confer special rules) after either being deployed within 2" of them or when held in reserve, how can you deploy the Crisis Bodyguard Team in an Infiltration position before Shadowsun is deployed, considering she is deployed after all other units.
Which brings us to your earlier argument that playing the rules this way makes the Master of Manoeuvre useless. This is a false argument. Master of Manoeuvre confers Outflank, a special rule which is only ever useful to units held in reserve. As the IC rules state, you can declare an IC to be joined with a unit when they are held in reserve so both the IC and unit they were attached to would benefit from Outflank as the IC would transfer the rule to the unit before they were deployed.
I hope this made it more clear.
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The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/02 20:41:22
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
New Bedford, MA
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I would go with the last list you posted, FlingitNow. I think it is the best (Farsight Enclaves all suits w/o riptide) list you posted, and I am interested in hearing how it does after you playtest it. I want to start an Enclave all suit army and I am interested in seeing successful, and alternative builds.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/02 21:07:16
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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I would go with the last list you posted, FlingitNow. I think it is the best (Farsight Enclaves all suits w/o riptide) list you posted, and I am interested in hearing how it does after you playtest it. I want to start an Enclave all suit army and I am interested in seeing successful, and alternative builds.
Cheers I agree the amendments people have advised have given me a strong all round list. The biggest concern is of course survivability.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/02 21:16:15
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
New Bedford, MA
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FlingitNow wrote:I would go with the last list you posted, FlingitNow. I think it is the best (Farsight Enclaves all suits w/o riptide) list you posted, and I am interested in hearing how it does after you playtest it. I want to start an Enclave all suit army and I am interested in seeing successful, and alternative builds.
Cheers I agree the amendments people have advised have given me a strong all round list. The biggest concern is of course survivability.
Survivability is usually a big concern for low-model count/elite armies. I am that way with my ravenwing. I think this is looking good until....there's those dang tau, IG, and helldrakes what do I do when I run across them (all 3 are used at my FLGS  ). Can't wait for the results  .
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/02 23:08:33
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Water-Caste Negotiator
Louisiana
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FlingitNow wrote:Way to go to reinforce my argument AnonAmbientLight. Also why start an argument about ICs joining Riptides? Literally no one on here has said they can't. Plus using codex trumps BRB for that argument  there is no conflict between codex and BRB on that argument... I really do pity you AnonAmbientLight. You used the whole quote bro. Why would you suddenly add the riptide to it and then call the whole thing bogus? Since we already discussed shadowsun, i figured you were just adding more to it and thought i had to explain it to you like i had to explain Gets Hot to Zag. Plenty of people have said that Riptides can not be joined by IC. In fact, there is a direct conflict with the BRB, because MC can usually never be joined by an IC as IC can never join a unit with one model(only other ICs). That one sentence on the Tau Codex pg 33 is what makes it possible, and A LOT of people don't know that. In fact, a lot of threads then bring up the question: Does the riptide have to have drones to take an IC? or is it just assumed that since it CAN have drones that it is allowed to take an IC. You really haven't been in a lot of Tau discussion forums have you? Huge discussion on Shadowsun if you care to read it. Zag's and this guy's argument is that sites like this do not discuss rules. Clearly, they've never looked outside of Dakka. http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/tau-codex-review-commander-shadowsun/ As one poster points out, "p.78, "Dedicated Transports," second paragraph, refers to ICs joining units inside transports during deployment. The point being if an IC isn't joined to a unit before it is deployed in a transport, it cannot embark on that transport (because then they are two separate units.) "No joining units before deployment" is a valid interpretation you can take, but it has consequences beyond models like Shadowsun."" Or as another guy suggested: ""The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it.)" Placing the transport on the table is its deployment. You cannot put (read deploy) a squad inside the transport once the transport is already deployed. The unit must be inside the transport before the transport is deployed. An IC must be with the unit that is in the transport before it is deployed. Thus an IC must join a unit....before deployment."" Spread your wings. There's more than just this forum out there fellas. http://advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20010 "The text for the special rule Infiltrate specifically disallows ICs that do not have infiltrate from deploying with infiltrators. This clause must assume that the IC would have benefited from the Infiltrate special rule before deployment; otherwise it serves no purpose. "
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/02 23:21:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 01:21:20
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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AnonAmbientLight wrote: FlingitNow wrote:Way to go to reinforce my argument AnonAmbientLight. Also why start an argument about ICs joining Riptides? Literally no one on here has said they can't. Plus using codex trumps BRB for that argument  there is no conflict between codex and BRB on that argument...
I really do pity you AnonAmbientLight.
You used the whole quote bro. Why would you suddenly add the riptide to it and then call the whole thing bogus? Since we already discussed shadowsun, i figured you were just adding more to it and thought i had to explain it to you like i had to explain Gets Hot to Zag.
Plenty of people have said that Riptides can not be joined by IC. In fact, there is a direct conflict with the BRB, because MC can usually never be joined by an IC as IC can never join a unit with one model(only other ICs). That one sentence on the Tau Codex pg 33 is what makes it possible, and A LOT of people don't know that.
In fact, a lot of threads then bring up the question: Does the riptide have to have drones to take an IC? or is it just assumed that since it CAN have drones that it is allowed to take an IC.
You really haven't been in a lot of Tau discussion forums have you?
Huge discussion on Shadowsun if you care to read it. Zag's and this guy's argument is that sites like this do not discuss rules. Clearly, they've never looked outside of Dakka.
http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/tau-codex-review-commander-shadowsun/
As one poster points out, "p.78, "Dedicated Transports," second paragraph, refers to ICs joining units inside transports during deployment. The point being if an IC isn't joined to a unit before it is deployed in a transport, it cannot embark on that transport (because then they are two separate units.) "No joining units before deployment" is a valid interpretation you can take, but it has consequences beyond models like Shadowsun.""
Or as another guy suggested: ""The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it.)" Placing the transport on the table is its deployment. You cannot put (read deploy) a squad inside the transport once the transport is already deployed. The unit must be inside the transport before the transport is deployed. An IC must be with the unit that is in the transport before it is deployed. Thus an IC must join a unit....before deployment.""
Spread your wings. There's more than just this forum out there fellas.
http://advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20010
"The text for the special rule Infiltrate specifically disallows ICs that do not have infiltrate from deploying with infiltrators. This clause must assume that the IC would have benefited from the Infiltrate special rule before deployment; otherwise it serves no purpose. "
No one said an IC cannot join a Riptide, there is no BRB Codex conflice. The Riptides is not a unit that always consists of a single model, so RAW there is nothing stopping an IC from joining a Riptide. Did you think this is contentious? Its RAW,
As to the 3++ article, did you actually read the comments? Especially those by AbusePuppy and Kirby, the where they agree that they are working off of the assumption that an IC with Infiltrate can grant it to a unit despite the RAW to the contrary? They are admitting that they are working off an assumption that is not RAW legal "until we are told differently by a GW FAQ".
As to the Advanced Tau Tactica Article, did you read it? With understanding? Many of the members there are clearly debating this very issue and many of them are are stating the RAW that Shadowsun cannot Infiltrate an non Infiltarte SR unit. Others even go so far as to say you cannot legally deploy the Farsight Bomb with Shadowsun.
Alot of the arguments go back to Shrike, which is from a 5th Ed codex which is now obsolete and in 5th ICs could join a unit before deployment, that has no bearing on 6th and Shadowsun and that particular FAQ, basically the only leg the argument stands on is officially obsolete come yesterday.
Master of Maneuver works because when declared into reserve ICs can join a unit and then declare their Reserve option, since you can order these effects you can join the squad, then declare Outflank as their reserve option. Invalid argument.
As to the Transports quote, the rules still work without forcing joining of the IC to the unit before deployment. Deploy unit inside of Transport. Then deploy the IC into the transport, they are automatically joined. Nothing that I have found precludes this. Its true GW needs to clean up their deployment rules, but until then I'll go with RAW and clear RAI. Infiltrate has neither.
Now, the only thing left is the RAI argument, something Kirby and AbusePuppy seem to have sided with. Notice, how the only valid argument is against RAW? And there is an equally valid RAI argument against it.
Now, I am very glad you supplied those two links, I've read the 3++ in the past and disagreed with their admitted assumption, because they clearly show that there is not a conclusive decision and those that play it as such are using their RAI against RAW. Now, the AdvancedTauTactica post was terrible, so many of those users don't have the rules right, I'm glad there were some who did and they seemed to. And the thread moved past it without definitive answer after the RAW was laid out and occasionally brought back as opinion and RAI.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 02:05:23
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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I think the list will be fun but the Broadsides lack mobility that the list craves. Having nothing to bubble wrap them will be a problem. Also, a serious lack of shots will be a problem. I know you tried to compensate by putting a Burst Cannon team together but its not enough. Drop pods lists and assault lists will provide problems.
I usually add a Bastion to provide LOS cover to my Mark'O commander, but then I take Riptides that coincidentally would be perfect for the list. IMO, the Broadsides are the odd-man out.
Also, I tried for a month to use the ECPA BC Riptide and I swore it off. Being able to Nova charge and get a 3++ and have the overcharge Ion is to me the best to maximize survivability early on. I found that Nova charging the BC was the only effective way to use it leaving vulnerable as an offensive unit because the range.
FlingitNow wrote:Vengeance Weapon Batteries are the other concern. S8 Ap3 and AV14 around is just a problem to deal with. I think if the Fusion units were full I'd drop them down to 2s but Solo suits have such a hard time with my dice rolling (last time I fought a Landraider 5 melta hits resulted in just 2 glances...)
That's my issue I drop something that weakens the list over all the improve the efficacy of what are little more than throw away units. Sure with Burstcannons they'd be more than that. But I quite like the ability yo just DS them in and cause a distraction. Or float them about backfield to help against assaults.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I could drop 2 ML drones to upgrade 1 unit...
How about this:
Commander: target lock, drone controller, 2 Missile Pods, Marker Drone 140
Commander: target lock, drone controller, 2 Missile Pods, Marker Drone 140
3 Crisis: 6 Plasma, bonded, 159
3 Crisis: 6 Plasma, bonded, 159
2 Crisis: 4 Melta, 2 Flamers, bonded 116
2 Crisis: 4 Melta, 2 Flamers, bonded 116
3 Crisis: 5 Flamers, 1 Burstcannon, bonded 104
3 Crisis: 6 Burstcannons, 1 Target lock, bonded 134
4 Marker Drones 56
4 Marker Drones 56
2 Broadsides: HYMP, EWO, 4 Missile Drones, bonded 190
2 Broadsides: HYMP, EWO, 4 Missile Drones, bonded 190
2 Broadsides: HYMP, EWO, 4 Missile Drones, bonded 190
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 06:37:08
Subject: Re:1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Frightnening Fiend of Slaanesh
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I WILL NOW IGNORE THE BULL AND ANSWER OP'S FREAKING QUESTION
Looking at your second list, I see a large number of Flamers still being included. As much as I agree with Flamers being a reliable way to chock up wounds, you could maximize their potential by putting all you Flamers into one or two squads, and Twin-Linking the ones you do have in order to achieve the highest number of wounds possible. I'm thinking that a squad or two could be created like so:
6 Shield Drones (to keep the squad alive after DS)
Twin-Linked Flamers
Stimulant Injectors (as a backup preservation)
That squad would be 216 points, and good lord would it chew through hordes.
I think you have a healthy combination of both versatility and redundancy in your list, and I only have one other recommendation to make. Right now, you're relying solely on FB Crisis suits to deal with heavy armor. Have you considered using FB Piranhas? Each one is only 50 points, and 3 fit in a single Fast Attack slot. Food for thought.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 09:25:26
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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I think the list will be fun but the Broadsides lack mobility that the list craves. Having nothing to bubble wrap them will be a problem. Also, a serious lack of shots will be a problem. I know you tried to compensate by putting a Burst Cannon team together but its not enough. Drop pods lists and assault lists will provide problems.
I usually add a Bastion to provide LOS cover to my Mark'O commander, but then I take Riptides that coincidentally would be perfect for the list. IMO, the Broadsides are the odd-man out.
I understand the Broadsides lack mobility but they are still pretty effective when moving and shooting due to twin linked and the Drones being able to move and fire independently. This means against for example a drop pod army I can move and shoot at full BS without ML support. I don't see a deepstriking army causing me many problems. If so I'll find some points to get EWO on a plasma team.
What assault armies do you think will cause me a problem? Flying MCs? I recon I murder 2-3 a turn. Hordes? Please. Only flesh hound spam is a concern and JSJ mobility will not be enough against that build. Volume fire and flamers are my only chance there and the list I believe has decent results there:
I have 132 shots excluding melta and 9 flamers.
What do I need bubble wrap for? There are no turn 1 assault armies anymore I always get a turn to react to assault so I don't see the need. Deepstriking melta will hurt but I can drone wrap and as stated kill a huge chunk of their army on interceptor. I will shuffle some things around to put EWO on a plasma team though.
Riptides do add survivability and mobility to the army. But I don't believe my suit load outs would match that at all ans as stated I would have to drop all the Broadsides and that is a completely different list.
Where I play I generally find there is an area I can hide my mark'o commander (I run 1 in my normal Tau army), so whilst a bastion would guarantee that it would mean dropping something good.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 10:07:02
Subject: Re:1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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How do you plan on handling the 3 meta stars
O'vesa Star, 2 ion riptides drones buff commander so they ignore cover reroll to hit and in general cause havoc to your units. Add 2 more riptides another ion and a HBC.
O:vesa and the other ion will target your Markers first turn, ignore cover go str 8 ap2 so if you fail a LoS you just lost a commander. Overchage for a 3+ invo and you have to try to weight of fire it with plasma and melta but it also has a decent amount of intercept/ablative wounds
Screamerstar 2+ rerollable save, your not going to kill this. I guess the best tactic is to spread out across the entire board and hope you can kill the troops before he munches you or hope for a powers fail.
Seer Council its like the poor mans screamerstar but adds Wave serpent fire support
I feel like the fact that the commanders only have AP 3 is a limiting factor. the lights/commanders are pretty vulnerable to str 8 AP 3 ignores cover. Even just AP 3 Ignores cover is pretty tough.
Your also dealing with the reserves limitation i.e. its dice to see what comes on when and if you get it on or not when you need it.
Other Taudar lists seem like they could give it trouble, intercept from tau broadsides / riptides giving you trouble coming in from reserve while eldar shoot for effect at anything on the board.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 10:37:23
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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Screamer star: If I go first use the sides to nail it turn 1 whilst it is vulnerable. Otherwise kill Fate Weaver first and wait for a failed Grimoire. After that it is about containment.
Seer council: basically same as above without Fortune and Protect it can go down to volume fire relatively easily.
Riptide star: Volume fire is the only answer I have or need. Tau don't really have another answer to such units. I'm fairly MSU so hurts death stars but I don't have many feeder units. What makes you think I'll let him have LOS to the Mark'o Commanders? Though that star is not Hugely seen round here because of how Hard a counter Dreadknights and Wraithknights are to it which are both pretty common.
Also you forgot Farsun Bomb which obviously I'll try to marker to death. Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah no Iridium on the Commanders makes me sad. I think you assume I will always DS my Crisis teams. I will not. They may DS it may not in most cases the plasma suits will actually start on the board. Against other Tau I doubt Id deep strike much if anything if I got first.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/03 10:48:21
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 12:24:38
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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FlingitNow wrote:Screamer star: If I go first use the sides to nail it turn 1 whilst it is vulnerable. Otherwise kill Fate Weaver first and wait for a failed Grimoire. After that it is about containment. Seer council: basically same as above without Fortune and Protect it can go down to volume fire relatively easily. Riptide star: Volume fire is the only answer I have or need. Tau don't really have another answer to such units. I'm fairly MSU so hurts death stars but I don't have many feeder units. What makes you think I'll let him have LOS to the Mark'o Commanders? Though that star is not Hugely seen round here because of how Hard a counter Dreadknights and Wraithknights are to it which are both pretty common. Also you forgot Farsun Bomb which obviously I'll try to marker to death. Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah no Iridium on the Commanders makes me sad. I think you assume I will always DS my Crisis teams. I will not. They may DS it may not in most cases the plasma suits will actually start on the board. Against other Tau I doubt Id deep strike much if anything if I got first. Nice simple ways to deal with those lists but I doubt you will get a chance against a good player, with no riptides have you got any interceptor (24 missiles right?)?. Against screamer councils what about the rest of his list, if you are just going to focus on the council and I doubt fatey will be on the board to give you a chance to kill him before turn 3/4. Against farsight deepstrikign that will hurt your units a lot seeing as there wont be any ap goodness to deny their armour save. What list is the tourny for fling it? or just throwing ideas out there?.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/03 12:25:52
40kGlobal AOA member, regular of Overlords podcast club and 4tk gaming store. Blogger @ http://sanguinesons.blogspot.co.uk/
06/2013: 1st at War of the Roses ETC warm up.
08/213: 3rd place double teams at 4tk
09/2013: 7th place, best daemon and non eldar/tau army at Northern Warlords GT
10/2013: 3rd/4th at Battlefield Birmingham
11/2013: 5th at GT heat 3
11/2013: 5th COG 2k at 4tk
01/2014: 34th at Caledonian
03/2014: 3rd GT Final |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 12:27:38
Subject: Re:1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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tiber55 wrote:How do you plan on handling the 3 meta stars
O'vesa Star, 2 ion riptides drones buff commander so they ignore cover reroll to hit and in general cause havoc to your units. Add 2 more riptides another ion and a HBC.
O:vesa and the other ion will target your Markers first turn, ignore cover go str 8 ap2 so if you fail a LoS you just lost a commander. Overchage for a 3+ invo and you have to try to weight of fire it with plasma and melta but it also has a decent amount of intercept/ablative wounds
Screamerstar 2+ rerollable save, your not going to kill this. I guess the best tactic is to spread out across the entire board and hope you can kill the troops before he munches you or hope for a powers fail.
Seer Council its like the poor mans screamerstar but adds Wave serpent fire support
I feel like the fact that the commanders only have AP 3 is a limiting factor. the lights/commanders are pretty vulnerable to str 8 AP 3 ignores cover. Even just AP 3 Ignores cover is pretty tough.
Your also dealing with the reserves limitation i.e. its dice to see what comes on when and if you get it on or not when you need it.
Other Taudar lists seem like they could give it trouble, intercept from tau broadsides / riptides giving you trouble coming in from reserve while eldar shoot for effect at anything on the board.
I think this is pretty bad theorycrafting here.
O'Vesa Star with 3 Riptides, buff commander(which has to be allied in) without the three requisite troops and second HQ is already pushing 1100pts. He has a ton of firepower, more than enough to deal with the squad and lets not discount the forced LD checks. It'd be tough, but the O'Vesa star would suffer more against other army matchups and isn't terribly likely to be seen. Now, dual or triple Riptide lists will be seen and he has the firepower to make them vanish.
ScreamerStar? Just like any other army does. Proper target priority. Kill Fateweaver, then the star once they fail a Grimoire, or their scoring units. He can spread out and force them to chase him a little and there are no guarantees the Screamer Star will even have Fortune, its only ~77%. 11% chance failed Grimiore with Fateweaver, 33% without. No guarentees with rolling Fortune will eventually keep the Screamerstar out of competitive play as it is unreliable and over the course of a 4 game tournament you will likely get nailed to the wall one game.
SeerCouncil isn't nearly as scary as the two above nor as effective. The Serpents are scarier than the Council IMO.
I doubt he is going to DS much besides the Fusion Suits in most games.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 14:13:08
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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At this stage it is just throwing ideas out there no specific tournament in mind.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 15:33:21
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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FlingitNow wrote:
What assault armies do you think will cause me a problem? Flying MCs? I recon I murder 2-3 a turn. Hordes? Please. Only flesh hound spam is a concern and JSJ mobility will not be enough against that build.
DP w/ wings and armor MoN with Burning Brand and Mastery level 3
Chaos Lord on Bike MoN with Black mace attached 5 MoN Spawn
2 x Cultists
2 x 5 CSM in Rhino
2 x Heldrakes
3 x Maulerfiends
or try Necron Wraith Spam with Tau Allies for a Iridium Raven Commander attached to Riptide and dont Forget a few croissants.
I'm not tailoring the list against you these are some tournament lists iin my local meta at your point level.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 15:46:31
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare
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thejughead wrote: FlingitNow wrote:
What assault armies do you think will cause me a problem? Flying MCs? I recon I murder 2-3 a turn. Hordes? Please. Only flesh hound spam is a concern and JSJ mobility will not be enough against that build.
DP w/ wings and armor MoN with Burning Brand and Mastery level 3
Chaos Lord on Bike MoN with Black mace attached 5 MoN Spawn
2 x Cultists
2 x 5 CSM in Rhino
2 x Heldrakes
3 x Maulerfiends
or try Necron Wraith Spam with Tau Allies for a Iridium Raven Commander attached to Riptide and dont Forget a few croissants.
I'm not tailoring the list against you these are some tournament lists iin my local meta at your point level.
I'm not convinced the CSM list would cause me significant problems. To be honest I'd say I was one of the best list for dealing with MTO list like that. He needs both Drakes to arrive the same turn to even remotely stand a chance.
Wraith spam? I have brilliant volume fire Wraith Spam dies. Croissants? Against triple Missilesides and 10 MLs please.
I really don't think any of those lists cause this list a particular problem. In fact I'd go as far to say as that for most of those I'm a good match up.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/03 15:46:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 16:30:09
Subject: Re:1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Still think against the more tuned tournaments lists its going to have trouble.
O'vesa star took 1st at the open and 2nd at the invitational 2 different people and poses a real threat as it can outshoot you from range. You can't hide from 3 ion riptides the whole game, and your units will present targets before they get into range to shoot.
Screamerstar, Fateweaver is only on the table if the tournoment FAQ's that he has to be on the table to reroll, and than if so he is going to be hiding as much as possible. I agree the screamerstar has a higher chance of failing v.s. Monterous Creature spam which if you ground you kill, but if there are 2 in the tournoment 1 probably has a good chance to make it through most of the rounds.
The Council / other taudar lists are what really seem to me to be a hard counter, they outshoot you from longer range, intercept if you try to deep strike and or have a mini deathstar to get into combat with you.
Honestly I think overall the list can be outranged unless your going to deep strike and if they can intercept that threat is highly negated.
Its all pretty moot, there are harder lists coming, forgeworld allowed tournaments your going to see CSM have a huge play advantage, 80pt t6 monterous creatures, 18" bubble of doom sorc/deamon prince, 2 bike lords with tons of oblits or helldrakes, if somone shells out the cash for 3 greater spawns and brings all the toys in the new chaos/chaos lists its going to get interesting. Add in Drop pod sternguard/bike lists from SM and its going to get nasty.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/03 16:30:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 16:59:53
Subject: Re:1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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I retract my statement about the O'Vesa Star. I wasn't aware of those results and I'm kind of surprised by that showing, do you have any link to batreps or the lists? I am curious to see how those games went and how they tooled their lists to handle most threats.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 17:42:52
Subject: 1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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How is that Oves'a star possible. If you take Farsight Enclave you can't take Tau Codex Sig Systems, even allying with the Tau Codex. Automatically Appended Next Post: Nm...I read their FAQ and they allowed it. Crazy IMO, as you can see by the results.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/03 17:47:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/03 17:57:00
Subject: Re:1750 Enclave all suit no Riptide list. Viable?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Zagman wrote:I retract my statement about the O'Vesa Star. I wasn't aware of those results and I'm kind of surprised by that showing, do you have any link to batreps or the lists? I am curious to see how those games went and how they tooled their lists to handle most threats. The 11th company ustream has the final matches for both the open and the invitational. Most basic breakdown is the invitational the O'Vesa Star got Outshot by Tau/Dar for 2nd, and in the open it won against a very interesting necon/ork list although the ork player got very unlucky as very early on he got pinned with his nobs/boss on a rerollable 10- coming out of his truck which basically allowed the O'vesa star to clear the rest of the table before killing the orks. Again FAQ's will affect things, O'vesa star being one of them, the other being fateweaver having to be on the board. Even if the O'vesa star isn't there your still have the Tau/Dar shooting to contend with 3-4 serpents riptide broadsides warp spiders bringing the heat. Also Forgeworld allowed lists start to bring heat against this, bunker IG with 6-9 Sabers and a bunch of artillery, or again CSM with 80 point MC + new bubble power + oblits or drakes with 2 chaos lords 1 Sorc seems like its going to make a showing at least on the west coast where forgeworld is allowed.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/03 18:00:29
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