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Loremaster says

A wizard with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly.

Sorry, but nothing in the slaan description says he can choose more than 1 lore.

On the other hand, page 490 that outlines spell generation as the singular chosen lore.
Without double lores, this list is dead in the water.
On the flip side, if choosing multiple lores is legal, then the list is also dead in the water, as every vampire in town now shows up with invocation and one spell from death.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Loremaster says

A wizard with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly.

Sorry, but nothing in the slaan description says he can choose more than 1 lore.

On the other hand, page 490 that outlines spell generation as the singular chosen lore.

So Mannfred has to choose either lore of vampires or lore of death? As he has to choose one of those lores. No. There is nothing in the Focus Discipline that says it is taken over your level 4. So it is taken in addition. Because they all are.

Loremaster says:
A loremaster knows all spells form his lore
The lore in question is normal given in brackets as part of loremaster rule. For example a model with loremaster (fire) would know all spells from lore of fire.

So no, you only get high as a loremaster, not any other lores. Which make sense because an ordinary slann should not really be as powerful as mazdamundi
Technicaly the lore is picked with the army as well, so an all comers list must have a set lore in tye list. So taking loremaster high means you must take high magic.

Does it even matter though? Thanks to the attribute you can just swap your spells anyway, so if you find yourself fighting an army that could really be damaged with a flame cage then just swap a spell to lore of fire. The flexibility is amazing.

 Son of Landuin wrote:
Loremaster says:
A loremaster knows all spells form his lore
The lore in question is normal given in brackets as part of loremaster rule. For example a model with loremaster (fire) would know all spells from lore of fire.

So no, you only get high as a loremaster, not any other lores. Which make sense because an ordinary slann should not really be as powerful as mazdamundi
Technicaly the lore is picked with the army as well, so an all comers list must have a set lore in tye list. So taking loremaster high means you must take high magic.

That is if the character has it as a special rule, but in this case you purchase it in addition to your normal spells. The reason Wandering Deliberations stops overrides the normal spell generation is because it states that it does. As this is an upgrade which gives him loremaster, it will work in addition to the 4 spells he generates.

Exact semantics of the rules aside(it seems clear to me that the Slann doesn't both have Loremaster (High) and generate spells from another Lore), is the contention really that 12 spells from 2 Lores is what's intended?

Given that one of the most widely agreed upon goals of the new book was to tone down the Slann, I find it pretty tough to buy that they'd give him 12 spells for such a small points cost.

Slann aside, I agree that there isn't enough punch in this list. I can imagine problems with heavily armored opponents.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Loremaster says

A wizard with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly.

Sorry, but nothing in the slaan description says he can choose more than 1 lore.

On the other hand, page 490 that outlines spell generation as the singular chosen lore.

So Mannfred has to choose either lore of vampires or lore of death? As he has to choose one of those lores. No. There is nothing in the Focus Discipline that says it is taken over your level 4. So it is taken in addition. Because they all are.

Have you read Mannfred's rules? He gets spells from both Death and Vampires thus both Death and Vampires are his Lore hence Loremaster works for both.

So again yes you can buy Loremaster (high) and choose to be a life wizard. But if you do this you don't get any High spells as High magic is no longer "his Lore"...

 FlingitNow wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Loremaster says

A wizard with the Loremaster special rule knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly.

Sorry, but nothing in the slaan description says he can choose more than 1 lore.

On the other hand, page 490 that outlines spell generation as the singular chosen lore.

So Mannfred has to choose either lore of vampires or lore of death? As he has to choose one of those lores. No. There is nothing in the Focus Discipline that says it is taken over your level 4. So it is taken in addition. Because they all are.

Have you read Mannfred's rules? He gets spells from both Death and Vampires thus both Death and Vampires are his Lore hence Loremaster works for both.

So again yes you can buy Loremaster (high) and choose to be a life wizard. But if you do this you don't get any High spells as High magic is no longer "his Lore"...

If we go by what you and Matt are saying, he has to have a chosen lore. So, he uses spells from death and vampires, and is a loremaster of both. Which is his chosen lore?

And once again, I say look at Wandering Deliberations. It is the only upgrade that overrides his spell generation, because it explicitly states it does. The rest add to the slann.

Whilst I do agree it shouldn't work like that, with the current wording of the book. It does.

Yes I know Loremaster (High) doesn't change his spell generate. It also doesn't do anything if his chosen Lore is not High. Are you really telling me that for 35points a basic Slain can be a better spell caster than Mazdamundi?

Manfred has 2 Lores. Why? Because his rules specify that he has 2 Lores. Does a Slaan ANYWHERE state he gets 2 Lores? If not then you can't.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes I know Loremaster (High) doesn't change his spell generate. It also doesn't do anything if his chosen Lore is not High. Are you really telling me that for 35points a basic Slain can be a better spell caster than Mazdamundi?

Manfred has 2 Lores. Why? Because his rules specify that he has 2 Lores. Does a Slaan ANYWHERE state he gets 2 Lores? If not then you can't.

You said it yourself, it doesn't change his spell generation. So he generates 4 spells normally, and has access to the loremastery of high magic.


Also, in the loremaster rule, it does not say he has to take the lore that he has loremastery of. It only states that he has chosen a lore which he knows all the spells from. Generally, loremasters have one lore which they know, which is what your argument is based on.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Son of Landuin wrote:
Loremaster says:
A loremaster knows all spells form his lore
The lore in question is normal given in brackets as part of loremaster rule. For example a model with loremaster (fire) would know all spells from lore of fire.

So no, you only get high as a loremaster, not any other lores. Which make sense because an ordinary slann should not really be as powerful as mazdamundi
Technicaly the lore is picked with the army as well, so an all comers list must have a set lore in tye list. So taking loremaster high means you must take high magic.

That is if the character has it as a special rule, but in this case you purchase it in addition to your normal spells. The reason Wandering Deliberations stops overrides the normal spell generation is because it states that it does. As this is an upgrade which gives him loremaster, it will work in addition to the 4 spells he generates.

Does it say in addition to your normal spells? No.

I remember asking the manager of the store if my slann could get two lores last edit lizardmen and he said no because the faq turned the rule into loremaster. I think its a bit like ogre butchers take magic armour through the ironfist. You can do it, except you will have no friends. All my ogre friends never do it cos its stupid.
And does it matter? You have 8 spells anyway. Be happy.

 Son of Landuin wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Son of Landuin wrote:
Loremaster says:
A loremaster knows all spells form his lore
The lore in question is normal given in brackets as part of loremaster rule. For example a model with loremaster (fire) would know all spells from lore of fire.

So no, you only get high as a loremaster, not any other lores. Which make sense because an ordinary slann should not really be as powerful as mazdamundi
Technicaly the lore is picked with the army as well, so an all comers list must have a set lore in tye list. So taking loremaster high means you must take high magic.

That is if the character has it as a special rule, but in this case you purchase it in addition to your normal spells. The reason Wandering Deliberations stops overrides the normal spell generation is because it states that it does. As this is an upgrade which gives him loremaster, it will work in addition to the 4 spells he generates.

Does it say in addition to your normal spells? No.

I remember asking the manager of the store if my slann could get two lores last edit lizardmen and he said no because the faq turned the rule into loremaster. I think its a bit like ogre butchers take magic armour through the ironfist. You can do it, except you will have no friends. All my ogre friends never do it cos its stupid.
And does it matter? You have 8 spells anyway. Be happy.

It doesn't say instead of generating spells normally, your slann is a loremaster. Therefore, it stands to reason that he generates spells normally. Just like Wandering Deliberations explicitly states that he has all the sigs instead of generating spells normally.

And therefore a high elf loremaster has all the sigs plus two spells cos he is a Lvl 2 wizard?

Also, in the loremaster rule, it does not say he has to take the lore that he has loremastery of.

No it doesn't but it does say you only get spells from the Lore you take...

How is this so difficult for you to understand?

Loremaster = knows all spells from HIS lore
Loremaster (High) = Knows all spells from HIS lore limited to High.

Prove that your Slaan's Lore is High magic when he choose Life to be his Lore or concede.

It doesn't say instead of generating spells normally, your slann is a loremaster. Therefore, it stands to reason that he generates spells normally.

Yes, it kinda does.

BRB says under loremaster rule:

"if the wizard has this rule he does NOT generate his spells as normal, he simply picks a lore and knows all the spells in that lore".

So, because Slann have a discipline that grants Loremaster (High Magic) he does NOT generate any spells, but instead knows all the spells from the Lore of High Magic.

 mixer86 wrote:

It doesn't say instead of generating spells normally, your slann is a loremaster. Therefore, it stands to reason that he generates spells normally.

Yes, it kinda does.

BRB says under loremaster rule:

"if the wizard has this rule he does NOT generate his spells as normal, he simply picks a lore and knows all the spells in that lore".

So, because Slann have a discipline that grants Loremaster (High Magic) he does NOT generate any spells, but instead knows all the spells from the Lore of High Magic.

It doesn't say that he doesn't generate them normally, just that he doesn't need to roll for them. IT also doesn't say that he has to use it if he has multiple lores available to him. Like a Slann with Focus.

EDITS: A MILLION TYPOS.

Where exactly does it state a Slaan with Focus has access to multiple Lores? You've just made that up.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Where exactly does it state a Slaan with Focus has access to multiple Lores? You've just made that up.

Loremaster doesn't replace your lore choice. It just grants you knowledge of all the spells from that lore.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Also, in the loremaster rule, it does not say he has to take the lore that he has loremastery of.

No it doesn't but it does say you only get spells from the Lore you take...

How is this so difficult for you to understand?

Loremaster = knows all spells from HIS lore
Loremaster (High) = Knows all spells from HIS lore limited to High.

Prove that your Slaan's Lore is High magic when he choose Life to be his Lore or concede.

This is inccorrect. There is nothing in the rulebook anywhere that says having Loremaster (high) causes you to be limited in the lore you choose.
If you take the LITERAL meaning of the loremaster special rule (which states if you gain loremaster (*) you have access to all spells of the spellcasters lore), then you also take into account that focus mastery gives you loremaster (high magic), then you would understand the slann is not gaining loremaster (*) and your argument has nothing to do with the situation.

You pick your lore, which allows you to generate 4 spells from it, and you also have loremaster (high magic) which means you know all high magic spells. That it......... its very clear.

Until they faq it, you'll have to house rule it, cause thats how it works.

It doesn't say that he doesn't generate them normally, just that he doesn't need to roll for them.

Not having to roll for your spells means you are NOT generating them normally.

Eihnlazer wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Also, in the loremaster rule, it does not say he has to take the lore that he has loremastery of.

No it doesn't but it does say you only get spells from the Lore you take...

How is this so difficult for you to understand?

Loremaster = knows all spells from HIS lore
Loremaster (High) = Knows all spells from HIS lore limited to High.

Prove that your Slaan's Lore is High magic when he choose Life to be his Lore or concede.

This is inccorrect. There is nothing in the rulebook anywhere that says having Loremaster (high) causes you to be limited in the lore you choose.
If you take the LITERAL meaning of the loremaster special rule (which states if you gain loremaster (*) you have access to all spells of the spellcasters lore), then you also take into account that focus mastery gives you loremaster (high magic), then you would understand the slann is not gaining loremaster (*) and your argument has nothing to do with the situation.

You pick your lore, which allows you to generate 4 spells from it, and you also have loremaster (high magic) which means you know all high magic spells. That it......... its very clear.

Until they faq it, you'll have to house rule it, cause thats how it works.

Sorry but where have I ever said that Loremaster (High) means you have to take High as your Lore? Why are people who are arguing this repeatedly making this false claim? Why not just read what I've said?

So again prove that if you take say Life as your Lore that High is your Lore. Because if High is not your Lore then Loremaster does nothing for you as you only know all the spell from your Lore. This is what Loremaster says.

As Mixer has also pointed out Loremaster also prohibits you from rolling for spells. So the actual RaW of having Loremaster High and choosing Life means you don't get any spells as Loremaster only gives you all the spells from your Lore and prevents you from rolling for spells...

 FlingitNow wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Also, in the loremaster rule, it does not say he has to take the lore that he has loremastery of.

No it doesn't but it does say you only get spells from the Lore you take...

How is this so difficult for you to understand?

Loremaster = knows all spells from HIS lore
Loremaster (High) = Knows all spells from HIS lore limited to High.

Prove that your Slaan's Lore is High magic when he choose Life to be his Lore or concede.

This is inccorrect. There is nothing in the rulebook anywhere that says having Loremaster (high) causes you to be limited in the lore you choose.
If you take the LITERAL meaning of the loremaster special rule (which states if you gain loremaster (*) you have access to all spells of the spellcasters lore), then you also take into account that focus mastery gives you loremaster (high magic), then you would understand the slann is not gaining loremaster (*) and your argument has nothing to do with the situation.

You pick your lore, which allows you to generate 4 spells from it, and you also have loremaster (high magic) which means you know all high magic spells. That it......... its very clear.

Until they faq it, you'll have to house rule it, cause thats how it works.

Sorry but where have I ever said that Loremaster (High) means you have to take High as your Lore? Why are people who are arguing this repeatedly making this false claim? Why not just read what I've said?

So again prove that if you take say Life as your Lore that High is your Lore. Because if High is not your Lore then Loremaster does nothing for you as you only know all the spell from your Lore. This is what Loremaster says.

As Mixer has also pointed out Loremaster also prohibits you from rolling for spells. So the actual RaW of having Loremaster High and choosing Life means you don't get any spells as Loremaster only gives you all the spells from your Lore and prevents you from rolling for spells...

A) You've been arguing that he has to take high if he's using loremaster.

B) The loremaster rule does not prohibit you from rolling for spells. It just means that he gets loremaster of HIS CHOSEN lore. The reason it's written like that is because, until this book came out, all loremasters had loremastery written down at the character choice stage, I.E. Mazdamundi. But a Slann can choose loremaster in addition to his normal level 4 spell generation. This is because, neither the book, nor the BRB prohibit him from doing so.

thedarkavenger wrote:
So Mannfred has to choose either lore of vampires or lore of death? As he has to choose one of those lores. No. There is nothing in the Focus Discipline that says it is taken over your level 4. So it is taken in addition. Because they all are.

Manfred has a rule that specifies he has 2 lores, and the description says he knows all spells from lore of death and lore of vampire.
For that to be the same as the slaan, the slaan would need to say that he knows all the spells from lore of high magic, in addition to his normal spells.

thedarkavenger wrote:
B) The loremaster rule does not prohibit you from rolling for spells.

"knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly."
Right. You don't need to roll, because you already have them all. This is why you can have multiple wizards with the same spell when one of them is a lore master; the lore master didn't roll the spell.
The slaans WD needed to specify that it's instead of generating normally, because their is no Lore Master (Signature) rule.

As the rule set is permissive, the general rule is a wizard can only generate from a single lore. Wandering D specifically over-riders that, as does the Grey Seer, Manfred, and the special daemon lord of tzeench.
Loremaster high magic does not.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

thedarkavenger wrote:
So Mannfred has to choose either lore of vampires or lore of death? As he has to choose one of those lores. No. There is nothing in the Focus Discipline that says it is taken over your level 4. So it is taken in addition. Because they all are.

Manfred has a rule that specifies he has 2 lores, and the description says he knows all spells from lore of death and lore of vampire.
For that to be the same as the slaan, the slaan would need to say that he knows all the spells from lore of high magic, in addition to his normal spells.

thedarkavenger wrote:
B) The loremaster rule does not prohibit you from rolling for spells.

"knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly."
Right. You don't need to roll, because you already have them all. This is why you can have multiple wizards with the same spell when one of them is a lore master; the lore master didn't roll the spell.
The slaans WD needed to specify that it's instead of generating normally, because their is no Lore Master (Signature) rule.

As the rule set is permissive, the general rule is a wizard can only generate from a single lore. Wandering D specifically over-riders that, as does the Grey Seer, Manfred, and the special daemon lord of tzeench.
Loremaster high magic does not.

-Matt

I know wandering Deliberations overridesthe normal generation. Focus of Mystery does not. And due to the obscure wording of the book, you pick a lore, AND buy him loremaster.

A) You've been arguing that he has to take high if he's using loremaster.

Flingitnow hasn't said that, i have because in my eyes he does have to take High if you choose the Loremaster (High) discipline. i believe that because the Loremaster rule in the BRB states you DO NOT roll anything in order to generate your spells, you gain all the spells in HIS lore. HIS lore for me has to be High because the discipline says it is High.

B) The loremaster rule does not prohibit you from rolling for spells. It just means that he gets loremaster of HIS CHOSEN lore. The reason it's written like that is because, until this book came out, all loremasters had loremastery written down at the character choice stage, I.E. Mazdamundi. But a Slann can choose loremaster in addition to his normal level 4 spell generation. This is because, neither the book, nor the BRB prohibit him from doing so.

For me it does, the price you are paying for NOT being able to generate spells normally is that you gain all spells from HIS lore, which as i've stated must be High because the discipline only grants loremaster for high magic, as indicated by the Loremaster (HIGH)

 mixer86 wrote:

A) You've been arguing that he has to take high if he's using loremaster.

Flingitnow hasn't said that, i have because in my eyes he does have to take High if you choose the Loremaster (High) discipline. i believe that because the Loremaster rule in the BRB states you DO NOT roll anything in order to generate your spells, you gain all the spells in HIS lore. HIS lore for me has to be High because the discipline says it is High.

B) The loremaster rule does not prohibit you from rolling for spells. It just means that he gets loremaster of HIS CHOSEN lore. The reason it's written like that is because, until this book came out, all loremasters had loremastery written down at the character choice stage, I.E. Mazdamundi. But a Slann can choose loremaster in addition to his normal level 4 spell generation. This is because, neither the book, nor the BRB prohibit him from doing so.

For me it does, the price you are paying for NOT being able to generate spells normally is that you gain all spells from HIS lore, which as i've stated must be High because the discipline only grants loremaster for high magic, as indicated by the Loremaster (HIGH)

Lore master works on his chosen lore. Which means the lore of his choice. The sole reason that is written that way is because up until this book, loremasters were assigned lores at the character choice stage, or had the USR and got to pick their lores.

But, as a slann gets to pick his lore AS WELL AS becoming a loremaster. And nowhere in the rulebook does it state that you have to use your lore if you are a loremaster of it. It was implied due to the reason above.

But, as a slann gets to pick his lore AS WELL AS becoming a loremaster. And nowhere in the rulebook does it state that you have to use your lore if you are a loremaster of it. It was implied due to the reason above.

You are perfectly correctly here
Nothing forces you to select High magic even though you are a Loremaster
You would then choose Life as your lore, and the special rule "Loremaster (High)" wouldn't trigger because you didn't choose "High" as your lore
way to sink your own argument there!

In either case this list is going to be very hard to pull off.

If the rules are applied as intended then this list lacks damage output and relies really heavily on promise of spell swapping.

If the OP, or anyone else, intended to enforce this 'Rules as Written' version of how the Loremaster rule affects Slann then I'm sorry but I'll be looking for a new opponent because that is utterly ridiculous.

I've never said Loremaster (high) prevents you from picking a different Lore. It just does not give you the 8 spells if you don't pick High RAW. It also prevents you from rolling for any spells RAW. So with your list as is your Slaan gets no spells.

TanKoL wrote:

But, as a slann gets to pick his lore AS WELL AS becoming a loremaster. And nowhere in the rulebook does it state that you have to use your lore if you are a loremaster of it. It was implied due to the reason above.

You are perfectly correctly here
Nothing forces you to select High magic even though you are a Loremaster
You would then choose Life as your lore, and the special rule "Loremaster (High)" wouldn't trigger because you didn't choose "High" as your lore
way to sink your own argument there!

Way to misinterpret my post.

Loremaster of High magic grants you 8 spells.

If you had that as a USR, then you only get those 8 spells.

But because the slann purchases Loremastery in addition to generating 4 spells, he gets his 4 spells as well as loremastery.

Whilst RAI, he should only get the loremastery. But, RAW currently, the loremastery does not replace his spell generation as it is an upgrade in addition to the normal spells, so he gets his basic 4 spells, as well as all of high magic.

Yes it is in addition, but the special rule only triggers if you choose the relevant lore as "your lore of choice"