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His chosen lore is life, this is true, which means that he generates the spells he knows from that lore. The rules also state that he generates spells from one lore, but as generation is done by rolling dice, loremastery doesn't count as generatyion. He automatically knows those spells, so he can use them. This means he knows 4 spells from life. Loremaster also means that he knows 8 spells from high

But unless High is his chosen lore Loremaster does not grant him any spells. That is what Loremaster states something you keep ignoring.

Also Loremastery does count as spell generation as it states you know the spells instead of rolling for them. It tells you it is replacing spell generation.

 FlingitNow wrote:

His chosen lore is life, this is true, which means that he generates the spells he knows from that lore. The rules also state that he generates spells from one lore, but as generation is done by rolling dice, loremastery doesn't count as generatyion. He automatically knows those spells, so he can use them. This means he knows 4 spells from life. Loremaster also means that he knows 8 spells from high

But unless High is his chosen lore Loremaster does not grant him any spells. That is what Loremaster states something you keep ignoring.

Also Loremastery does count as spell generation as it states you know the spells instead of rolling for them. It tells you it is replacing spell generation.

His chosen lore is a lore of his choice, even the wizard section in the reference part of the BRB confirms that.

And loremaster says he knows all the spells from his chosen lore, and he doesn't neecd to roll. And as generation is described as rolling for spells, loremaster does not replace spell generation, unless loremaster is written into a character page, because writing it into a character page is the ONLY WAY loremaster becomes a character's only lore.

His chosen lore is a lore of his choice, even the wizard section in the reference part of the BRB confirms that.

It also tells you how a wizard chooses his lore. Which in your case is Life, but for Loremaster to grant spells it needs to be high...

unless loremaster is written into a character page, because writing it into a character page is the ONLY WAY loremaster becomes a character's only lore.

A) Why is this relevant? Why does it even matter?
B) citation please...

 FlingitNow wrote:

His chosen lore is a lore of his choice, even the wizard section in the reference part of the BRB confirms that.

It also tells you how a wizard chooses his lore. Which in your case is Life, but for Loremaster to grant spells it needs to be high...

It doesn't though? Loremaster states that he picks a lore, and automatically knows all the spells. The rule also states that he can cast any spell he knows.

 FlingitNow wrote:

unless loremaster is written into a character page, because writing it into a character page is the ONLY WAY loremaster becomes a character's only lore.

A) Why is this relevant? Why does it even matter?
B) citation please...

When loremaster is written on a character page, it is as his lore, hence he uses it. But when a slann chooses a lore, he does that in addition to loremaster, so he knows 12 spells which he is able to cast.

It doesn't though? Loremaster states that he picks a lore, and automatically knows all the spells

Loremaster does not state this. Please use what the rules actually say. It states his chosen lore, the rules tell us how a wizards pucks his chosen lore. If you have Loremaster (High) but chose High ad your lore then you don't know all the spells from High.

When loremaster is written on a character page, it is as his lore, hence he uses it. But when a slann chooses a lore, he does that in addition to loremaster, so he knows 12 spells which he is able to cast.

So basically you're saying your "ONLY WAY" statement is just based on some anecdotal evidence that it is a way and you're not even willing to supply that. Nor have you been able to state why it is at all relevant to our discussion (because it's not).

 FlingitNow wrote:

It doesn't though? Loremaster states that he picks a lore, and automatically knows all the spells

Loremaster does not state this. Please use what the rules actually say. It states his chosen lore, the rules tell us how a wizards pucks his chosen lore. If you have Loremaster (High) but chose High ad your lore then you don't know all the spells from High.

When loremaster is written on a character page, it is as his lore, hence he uses it. But when a slann chooses a lore, he does that in addition to loremaster, so he knows 12 spells which he is able to cast.

So basically you're saying your "ONLY WAY" statement is just based on some anecdotal evidence that it is a way and you're not even willing to supply that. Nor have you been able to state why it is at all relevant to our discussion (because it's not).

The rules tell us that the wizards chosen lore is the lore that he generates spells from, and that spells are generated by rolling dice. Without the rolling dice part, you don't generate spells, therefore loremaster cannot come into effect. See P. 490.

It is. Because loremaster neither states that it has to be your only lore, nor that it overrides spell generation. See page 490 for more information on how spells are generated.

Ok, this thread really needs to be moved to YMDC.

I can see both sides of the argument, although I feel only one has any tangible (by which I mean gaming) credibility.

thedarkavenger: Whilst I appreciate your argument and see a certain RAW glimmer within in, it's a moot point at best. I can't imagine any casual game, let alone a tournament, that would let you abuse ambiguous ruling to such an extent.

Whilst I hope this gets resolved I can't see GW FAQing something so niche. If anything, this would come down to tournament level decision making, and if somehow it got passed I imagine it would instantly label you TFG.

Have you read Loremaster? Yes normally you roll for spells during spell generation. Loremaster tells you to do something instead of this. But it is still spell generation. It references your chosen lore and tells you not to roll for spells instead you know all the spells from that lore.

It is. Because loremaster neither states that it has to be your only lore, nor that it overrides spell generation. See page 490 for more information on how spells are generated.

So the first part I assume is you admitting it is irrelevant as I have to tell you yet again that I have NEVER stated Loremaster tells you it has to be your only lore. If you make that argument again I'll take it as you conceding. Then the claim that it doesn't over ride spell generation is a lie as the rules have been posted that prove otherwise "knows all the spells from his chosen lore - he does not need to roll randomly".

So if you claim Loremaster does not over ride spell generation then all wizards have to roll for their spells when they are Loremasters... Please stop making irrelevant statement or posting lies as I will take that as you conceding if you do it again.

Now do you have any actual rules to back up your "RAW" claim?

I think you should go for it.

I would personally find it funny to watch you drop £300+ on the list then turn up anywhere to be told by everyone "of course you can't have 12 spells!"

You can then argue your point to your hearts content with yourself while everyone else enjoys a game because there is no way anyone will let you play it that way.

It's clear that nobody here will persuade the other, so, as to not to continue this pointless argument, let's agree to wait until the FAQ comes out to settle it.

Yeah, lets get back to the point at hand.
If the FAQ says you get 12 spells, this is still a sub-par list.
It needs more damage output.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Yeah, lets get back to the point at hand.
If the FAQ says you get 12 spells, this is still a sub-par list.
It needs more damage output.

-Matt

In the hypothetical scenario of me actually building this list, I'd say it has the damage output.

I have dwellers, and in the early game I a couple of spells out to death. The ideal roll being me getting the better snipes.

Then I roll another spell, and roll on metal, ideally getting Final Transmutation.

This leaves me with four spells. All of these get traded out for light so I then get the buffs.


This gives me the buffs to make saurus half decent, and the spells to make my opponent come to me.

It is a waiting game list, and as such will loose to armies that can beat on you from across the table.

fast armies such as wood elves, and potentially ogres and skaven (with outflanking) will also get to you before you get the buffs you want.

Still, a bad magic phase could ruin everything though.

 Son of Landuin wrote:
Still, a bad magic phase could ruin everything though.

It could. But there are ways around that. For example, level 1 with the forbidden rod and double troglodon.

 Son of Landuin wrote:
Still, a bad magic phase could ruin everything though.

I think the cycling spells is really being over-estimated for what it does.
With no extra power dice or casting bonus or buffs, this slaan is no more effective than a empire wizard.
@ 415 points, most armies can run 2 wizard lords.
From my experience, even with 5 channels (3 on a 5+, 2 on a 6+), and storing a dispel die to use as a power die, I'm at best getting 1 or 2 spells off per turn.
Furthermore, lacking skink priests for extra range, you're going to have to throw at boosted levels for more range or get close with the nuke spells.
What I'd expect to see happen is see the slaan get off 1 minor spell, and have his big spell shut down, with at least 1 magic phase being shut down due to crappy dice and or dispel scroll.

If you think a level 4 with 3 channels on a 6 is awesome, then empire with 2 wizard lords and a warrior priest would be single hand crushing the enemy.
If you're doing a heavy magic list, go with the +1 to channel and store a die, along with a priest or two for additional range and targeting, as well as packing more arcane items.
All out, add Tetto'eko for the ability to re-roll casting dice.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Son of Landuin wrote:
Still, a bad magic phase could ruin everything though.

I think the cycling spells is really being over-estimated for what it does.
With no extra power dice or casting bonus or buffs, this slaan is no more effective than a empire wizard.
@ 415 points, most armies can run 2 wizard lords.
From my experience, even with 5 channels (3 on a 5+, 2 on a 6+), and storing a dispel die to use as a power die, I'm at best getting 1 or 2 spells off per turn.
Furthermore, lacking skink priests for extra range, you're going to have to throw at boosted levels for more range or get close with the nuke spells.
What I'd expect to see happen is see the slaan get off 1 minor spell, and have his big spell shut down, with at least 1 magic phase being shut down due to crappy dice and or dispel scroll.

If you think a level 4 with 3 channels on a 6 is awesome, then empire with 2 wizard lords and a warrior priest would be single hand crushing the enemy.
If you're doing a heavy magic list, go with the +1 to channel and store a die, along with a priest or two for additional range and targeting, as well as packing more arcane items.
All out, add Tetto'eko for the ability to re-roll casting dice.

-Matt

The list was an experiment with calculating how much raw magical power a slann could have.

I'm now toying with a Gor Rok star. All your points in a single unit with 2 slann, one on beasts and one on light/life/death. Then you curse the main threat, on the turn they get to charging you. If they're frenzied, better. That way, when they make charge, they take a dangerous terrain test which they fail on a 1/2. And when they make contact, they take another, which they fail on a 1/2 or 3.

It's a gimmick, but I'm interested to see if I can make it work.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

I'm now toying with a Gor Rok star. All your points in a single unit with 2 slann, one on beasts and one on light/life/death. Then you curse the main threat, on the turn they get to charging you. If they're frenzied, better. That way, when they make charge, they take a dangerous terrain test which they fail on a 1/2. And when they make contact, they take another, which they fail on a 1/2 or 3.
It's a gimmick, but I'm interested to see if I can make it work.

If opponent is frenzied, throw 10-12 cohorts into it, 2 wide, and hex it. When you lose combat and run, you kill ~1/3 the unit with the curse.
If you're going double slaan, I'd double down on temple guard, and take Gor Rok leading a saurus block. Hell, throw in a saurus hero with the crown of command. That'd give you 4 stubborn units. That shold give you plenty of time to get off a few good magic phases.
Maybe go shadow and life, hoping for dwellers and mindrazor.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

I'm now toying with a Gor Rok star. All your points in a single unit with 2 slann, one on beasts and one on light/life/death. Then you curse the main threat, on the turn they get to charging you. If they're frenzied, better. That way, when they make charge, they take a dangerous terrain test which they fail on a 1/2. And when they make contact, they take another, which they fail on a 1/2 or 3.
It's a gimmick, but I'm interested to see if I can make it work.

If opponent is frenzied, throw 10-12 cohorts into it, 2 wide, and hex it. When you lose combat and run, you kill ~1/3 the unit with the curse.
If you're going double slaan, I'd double down on temple guard, and take Gor Rok leading a saurus block. Hell, throw in a saurus hero with the crown of command. That'd give you 4 stubborn units. That shold give you plenty of time to get off a few good magic phases.
Maybe go shadow and life, hoping for dwellers and mindrazor.

-Matt

The Gor Rok star is gimmicky, because it kills 1/3 on the charge, and 1/2 on making contact. And as it is literally that unit and 2 swarms, you need to engage it.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The Gor Rok star is gimmicky, because it kills 1/3 on the charge, and 1/2 on making contact. And as it is literally that unit and 2 swarms, you need to engage it.

The shield affects models in contact, not units. 1/3 of the unit takes a wound on the charge, 1/2 of models that touch.
-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The Gor Rok star is gimmicky, because it kills 1/3 on the charge, and 1/2 on making contact. And as it is literally that unit and 2 swarms, you need to engage it.

The shield affects models in contact, not units. 1/3 of the unit takes a wound on the charge, 1/2 of models that touch.
-Matt

My bad, misread it.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

The Gor Rok star is gimmicky, because it kills 1/3 on the charge, and 1/2 on making contact. And as it is literally that unit and 2 swarms, you need to engage it.

The shield affects models in contact, not units. 1/3 of the unit takes a wound on the charge, 1/2 of models that touch.
-Matt

My bad, misread it.

I think it's still decent.
3 or 4 Stubborn blocks backed up with beast magic is good. You have 2 combat characters for the character buffs, and wild form on any one of those 4 makes it a beat stick. IF you get the curse off, great.

-Matt

Ironically enough, i found another instance of where a wizard can gain loremaster during a game which favors the 12 spell argument.

pg.130 of BRB. if you challange the sphinx you can gain loremaster (death) during the game and learn all death spells.

This by extension means if you gain Loremaster (high) from a purchased ability you do indeed know all high magic even if it isnt your chosen lore..........

Eihnlazer wrote:
Ironically enough, i found another instance of where a wizard can gain loremaster during a game which favors the 12 spell argument.

pg.130 of BRB. if you challange the sphinx you can gain loremaster (death) during the game and learn all death spells.

This by extension means if you gain Loremaster (high) from a purchased ability you do indeed know all high magic even if it isnt your chosen lore..........

You get Loremaster (Death) even if it is no use to you. All that means is that if a non-wizard gets the rule it does nothing for him, likewise if a Wizard who's lore is not death gets the rule it does nothing for him... That's RAW, now if you want to discuss RaI that is a different matter and I would concede that the intention for the Sphinx is to give the 8 spells to any wizard, butnot for a second are you going to convince anyone that it is RaI for a 35point upgrade to make any Slaan miles better than Mazdamundi which the original poster has already conceded.

So your still saying that RAW it means they dont get anything from it if their chosen lore isnt death, even though its obviously ment to give the spells to any wizard?


Well, you have amazing fortitude good sir.

As undercosted as the ability seems, its not acctually gonna win the game for anyone. Knowing 30 spells wouldnt improve your game that drastically seeing as how you can only cast 2 or 3 decent spells a turn anyway.

So your still saying that RAW it means they dont get anything from it if their chosen lore isnt death, even though its obviously ment to give the spells to any wizard?

Yes I'm still arguing because that is literally what the RaW. The clear intention is that Loremaster gives you all the spells. But you cant say we'll play by the clear intention here but ignoring it for this rule because it gives me this massive bonus. RaI is far more important than RaW and we all know the RaI on these rules. DarkAvenger is trying to cheat by claiming a RaW interpretation but when pointed out that is not RAW we've had various attempts at putting RaI into a section of the rules which just further illustrates this is an attempt at cheating.

Having 14 Spells is actually a massive benefit because it gives you an answer to every question and with a tooled Slaan he can dominate a magic phase.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
Ironically enough, i found another instance of where a wizard can gain loremaster during a game which favors the 12 spell argument.

pg.130 of BRB. if you challange the sphinx you can gain loremaster (death) during the game and learn all death spells.

This by extension means if you gain Loremaster (high) from a purchased ability you do indeed know all high magic even if it isnt your chosen lore..........

You get Loremaster (Death) even if it is no use to you. All that means is that if a non-wizard gets the rule it does nothing for him, likewise if a Wizard who's lore is not death gets the rule it does nothing for him... That's RAW, now if you want to discuss RaI that is a different matter and I would concede that the intention for the Sphinx is to give the 8 spells to any wizard, butnot for a second are you going to convince anyone that it is RaI for a 35point upgrade to make any Slaan miles better than Mazdamundi which the original poster has already conceded.

That that to YMTC, it has nothing to do with review of the army lists.

 FlingitNow wrote:

So your still saying that RAW it means they dont get anything from it if their chosen lore isnt death, even though its obviously ment to give the spells to any wizard?

Yes I'm still arguing because that is literally what the RaW. The clear intention is that Loremaster gives you all the spells. But you cant say we'll play by the clear intention here but ignoring it for this rule because it gives me this massive bonus. RaI is far more important than RaW and we all know the RaI on these rules. DarkAvenger is trying to cheat by claiming a RaW interpretation but when pointed out that is not RAW we've had various attempts at putting RaI into a section of the rules which just further illustrates this is an attempt at cheating.

Having 14 Spells is actually a massive benefit because it gives you an answer to every question and with a tooled Slaan he can dominate a magic phase.

A wizard can cast any spell he knows. The caveat is that he only can cast spells he has generated or loremastered at his character entry. Obtaining loremaster in any other way, I.E. Sphinx, or an upgrade, means that the then knows those spells.