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I was surprised there wasn't already a topic for this on the forum already but nothing came up on search.


Anyway, just a few little things one of the big cliffhangers at the end of ADWD was the battle for Mereen, lots of characters are converging on the area and with the preview chapters we may have gained a little insight. Certainly several of these characters will die because of competing interests.

Victarion wants to kill Hidzhar so he can marry Dany. Barristan is actively protecting Hidzhar and Vic is not one for subtle murder at all; he wants his glory and isn't up for sharing. So I think that although Vics fleet will wipe out the initial slaver army before the massive Voltanese army arrives they will turn on the defenders once inside the city or a dispute will flare up. There is also the very melancholic and highly sentimental nature of Barristans chapters in which he reflects on death and his desire to die serving his King. In addition, he blatantly had a Jon/Ned moment where he promised to talk to Dany about her father someday. Without a doubt, this means he will not live to have this discussion. So I think Vic will kill Barristan and Hidzhar.

I also think that because the mercenaries won't be expecting Barristans sally or the Ironborn its possible that Tyrion n Jorah will be trapped on the wrong side of the conflict or be marginalized in their role. Vics actions might give them the opportunity to take over the defense of Mereen and lend them the prominence they need when Dany returns to Mereen. Now, a lot fo people wil probs say, "but Dany needs the Ironborn to get back to Westeros, how can Victarion fail?". Well, its pointed out in ADWD that 100 ships isn't enough to carry all of Danys army; so the Iron Fleet is insufficient on if itself. Other ships could present themselves like if the Voltanese navy rebels; but that still means Dany doesn't actually need Vic or the Iron Fleet. So Tyrion and the Tattered princes mercenaries against the Ironborn army whilst the Unsullied hold the walls.

Incidently, I also think it would be an appropriately epic fight if Jorah fought Victarion one on one. A lot of people think Jorah will die, but I think this is more because people don't see a future for the characters arc; I personally think he'll meet his old wife again. But the main reason against Jorah dying is that he has already died once to Dany when she exiled him; indeed Dany actually meets his ghost quite literally in ADWD. So him dying wouldn't mean as much for Dany as Barristans would, especially since Selmy represents some of the innocence and nievity of Danys arc. His death is more likely to symbolize Danys final decision to embrace fire and blood at the end of ADWD.

As an aside, I don't think Daario is dead either because not only did he leave his weapons with Dany to say he'd be back and wouldn't betray her. Also, this is A Song of Ice and Fire, no body, no death.

Well, Jon is "THE GUY". Hes not dead. End of discussion. Likely he will either

1- Be put into his direwolf "ghost" before being able to try to enter another body or his own once its healed. This is attempted in ADWD prologue to show it can be done.7

2-Mel wakes him up. However, its not clear she has that power and the show implies she does not when she meets Thoros. Unless its meant to give her the idea of course.

3- He was just badly wounded and wakes up.

But Jon is the main character, he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. He is prophesied to at least meet if not marry Daenerys from the House of the Undying vision of the sweet blue rose gorwing in a wall of ice. This makes him invincible.


As for the battle of ice. The only reason Stannis would lose is if Martin wants Jon to step in to fill the breach and be the one to defeat the Boltons/Freys. However, that is a slim chance because Martin intimated with the pink letter that he had lost offscreen which immediately suggests he hasn't lost at all.


But yeah I am not really fussed about the Starks and the north. I doubt Martin will kill off Stannis or any other Stark during Winds of Winter.

As much as I'd love to agree with you. I'm a sworn pessimist. Ramsay will probably snap and wind up fething cannibalizing the fake Arya. *Which seems like something a Bolton would do.* And the real Arya catching sick or something.

G.R.R Martin -really- doesn't like the Starks.

 Shadowbrand wrote:
As much as I'd love to agree with you. I'm a sworn pessimist. Ramsay will probably snap and wind up fething cannibalizing the fake Arya. *Which seems like something a Bolton would do.* And the real Arya catching sick or something.

G.R.R Martin -really- doesn't like the Starks.

The Starks are simply too honourable to get anywhere in Westeros.
Remember that every other family outside of the North is playing 'the game'. The Starks don't give a flying rat's fart about the Iron Throne and their stubbornness and tendency to always try and do what is right/honourable doesn't have a happy ending in a world where backstabbing and politicking gets you ahead.
As Cersi tells Ned early on, "when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die - there is no middle ground."



Jorah at least has to live long enough to speak on Tyrion's behalf so that Dany doesn't just kill the little Lannister out of pure hatred for his family.
Speaking of this most awesome pair, I'm hoping that Penny finally gets lost for good, (whiney character is beyond annoying!), and that it turns out these two are Dany's other dragonriders.
(besides, these two on screen are going to be an absolutely epic pairing considering the actors they've got for the roles - let's hope it doesn't end up a one-season-wonder considering that Bronn is still well out of the picture...)
Actually, how epic would it be if Jorah lives long enough to encounter his (likely) wight father?! Could he bring himself to fight against his father?

Barristan will likely get a suitably epic death befitting his noble character!

Victarion is an evil, sadistic c*** who needs to die - preferably before he blows the fancy horn of 'will probably make dragons' ears bleed'

Young Agen I think is a plant... as in, we're meant to think he's supposed to team-up with auntie-Dany and help kick some serious arse, but really we've already seen hints at how unstable and foolish this character really is. (remember that game w/Tyrion where he qq'ed after losing his dragon piece?!)
If anything, I think that Agen is likely the 'betrayal of blood' Dany was warned about waaaaaay back in Quarth by the red-masked woman.

Darrio I think is going to be revealed as the 'betrayal of love'.

Jon of course is almost certainly "The One" 'ol Mel keeps looking for...
If you recall the story of the true Lightbringer as Sallador Saan told Ser Davos near the beginning of Clash of Kings, Jon is the only character who's made the relevant sacrifice required to gain Lightbringer.

If you play the game of thrones, you win or you die.

But if you don't play the game...

^You die anyway.

Come on guys. You know perfectly well you-know-who isn't dead. It's one of those fake deaths that happens so much more often then real deaths in the books. For all the hardcore named character killing he does, the truth is like 3 characters "die, but just kidding lol" for every sean bean Ned Stark.

Ned Stark jumped into somebody anyway and will be back in the final book...

I could see Jon get killed. He's had an enormous amount of attention, was in the middle of some of the most dangerous situations, and rolled way above average. His luck was bound to run out at some point. It would also drive home the 'you should have taken Val and Winterfell when it was offered to you' point.

But if he dies, then a good portion of the coverage the North beyond the Wall had would disappear. We know we'll visit the far North more in the new novels. Melissandre could pick it up, obviously Bran too, and maybe Davos and Rickon.

I'd love for Dany to become bat-gak crazy evil. Upon hearing that Daario died, she fed all the child hostages to Drogon, something like that. Prepares the room for Victarion winning her heart. I hope the end game will be surviving Houses vs Lord of Light and the Other. Having any Westerosi Kingdom ally with the Dragons (beside Dorne) in a super team up against the super new villain Martin's hinted at but kept behind for super dramatic purposes would feel really bland to be. The winner of the game of thrones can't be a Dragon because of the need to fight the Other, that would invalidate the whole point of the game.

I am surprised people still think Martin killed off Jon.


Another little bit of wistful thinking.

With Rhaegal and Viserion loose in Mereen and Dany having already tamed Drogon it seems certain to me that the other dragons will also find riders pretty soon. Especially since we already make himself a rider and Quentyn having failed to steal one. So I think this will definitely be a big part of Winds. For practical reasons, with the dragons size they clearly need to have riders to get them under control and simply move the plot forward. There are a couple of theories which indicate who they might be.

Colour coded dragons-

Given the prophetic and magical nature of the universe it doesn't seem impossible that the color of the dragon is related to the sigil of the person who will ride it. The biggest example of this is Daenerys herself whose Targaryen colors (although she never wears them or uses these colors it has to be said) are black and red. This matches Drogons description of having black and red scales with red wings. So we could assume that the colours indicate who will ride them. A big problem with this theory is that HBO chose to change Viserions color from creamy white with gold flecks to fully gold with red shading around the wings. If they made such a whimsical decision then surely it can't be important. Obviously white is associated with the Starks and if any Stark ever rode a dragon they would not have changed Viserions color. But if thats the case we could assume...

Rhaegal as the green dragon could be ridden by...
- Jorah: The Mormont sigil is green, however there is conspicuous lack of any interaction between him and the dragons despite being one of the few characters besides Dany who has been with them since their birth. The one exception is when Dany for a prank makes Jorah say Drakarys and heDrogon singes his eyebrows. Likely this foreshadows his falling out with Daenerys rather than him being a dragonrider. Also Rhaegal has black teeth and that is usually the colour of the bear on the Mormont sigil.
-Loras Tyrell- The Tyrells are deeply anti-Lannister and were pro-Targ because Aegon the Conqueror legitimized their rule in the Reach. They also fought for the Mad King.
-Aegon "Targaryen": Obviously riding a dragon named after his father makes sense. During the Dance with Dragons the two factions were the blacks (who supported the female Targaryen) and the greens (supported the male). There is obviously the above mentioned problem that Dany has never worn these colours or been associated with them during the series. In fact its Aegon who effects this heraldry with him planning to raise his banner and having Rhaegar style armor. However, him somehow gaining or being given Rhaegal could make him the rider of the green dragon.
-Bran: Not a fan of this theory, the north should be about the north and it feeds into "Starks are the only important characters" syndrome among the fanbase. However green is associated with greenseers and its not impossible that Bran could fly a dragon or warg one.
-Jon: Rhaegar is his father.

Viserion if white/gold
- Any Stark. White is their sigil.
- Jamie or Barristan. Obviously I think Barristan will die. But white is associated with the Kingsguard and so is gold.

Gold/red Viserion
-Jamie Lannister- Again, Jamie with his golden sword is associated with this color along with his Lannister heritage. It has to be said that HBO may have made the decision because they've emphasized Jamie the Lannister more than his role in the kingsguard. hes the only character where white, red and gold equally apply. Because Dany is being built up as wanting vengeance on those who murdered her father and Jamie is being built up as Mr Atonement he is clearly going to have a conflict with Dany. I suspect Jamie will probably decide to have a Barristan moment and go serve the family he failed and the rightful Queen. The fact he let Rhaegar down was very strongly emphasized as well as the life long vows that Jamie is trying to uphold. In burning Cersei letter he is drifting apart from his family much like Tyrion (who will likely be serving with Dany) and increasingly disillusioned by them. If you believe that Aerys also slept with Joanna and that the twins are actually Targaryens it would also make sense for Danys bastard brother to show up. Obviously theres a question mark on if Dany can overcome her own prejudice but I suspect this can happen.

Tyrion- I am sorry but, no. It would be too stupid and mary-sueing if Tyrion did become a dragon rider but lets put it out there.

Victarion- A golden kraken.

Aegon "Targaryen": Obviously he is with the golden company and a golden dragon would suit him because of that association.


Other reasons-

The dragons character. Danys willful and violently powerful dragon clearly reflects a part of herself which she wants to deny in ADWD but ends up accepting by the end. So if the dragons character must fit the rider.

Rhaegal is described as a dangerous, brooding and aggressive dragon. He is the one who killed Quentyn. Indeed he is the one we know least about. Of the characters I listed for color this doesn't really suit Aegon (the pretty boy coward) or Loras. It could fit Jon and Jorah. Both are brooding and Jorah in particular has been described as a dangerous man several times by Daario and Tyrion.

Viserion is described as a playful, lovable dragon and is often shown playing with Daenerys. He is easily led to the pit by her, trusting, and the most distressed by her leaving him. This absolutely doesn't fit his namesake suffice to say . Curiously he is also described as having a roar which could send a hundred lions running. That could indicate hostility towards the Lannisters or it could actually be a take on their words "Hear me Roar" and the loudest lion is of course the strongest. In particular I think of Tyrion here. He very much wants to be loved and this is pointed out several times. He also trusts in both Tysha and Shae beyond his better judgement as well as being deeply hurt when both of those relationships failed. However, it could be argued that this applies to Jamie as well as Tyrion. He completely trusts and loves Cersei (again, past his better judgement). Being totally loyal to her he couldn't believe that she would sleep around and is hurt by her disgust at his disability. We also have their descriptions of them as children which clearly suits the lovable and playful character of Viserion.



So I think its most likely that Jorah and Jamie will be Danys dragonriders. Incidentally I think they both jousted at the tourney of Lannisport and neither could best each-other. Could be wrong on that but that is another little link there. Jamies story is heavily linked to the Targaryens however; more so than almost any other Westeros character.

Spoiler needed?

 Ouze wrote:
Come on guys. You know perfectly well you-know-who isn't dead. It's one of those fake deaths that happens so much more often then real deaths in the books. For all the hardcore named character killing he does, the truth is like 3 characters "die, but just kidding lol" for every sean bean Ned Stark.

Apparently the way to tell if someone is dead or not in GRRM's books is by the POV of the character's death.

If it's someone watching someone else die, they're dead.

If it's someone who's the current POV, and they 'die', they're not actually dead.

I just hope the dangling carrot of Frost giants, monsters, dragons et al. drops this season or I am done with this show. Falcon Crest in a Medieval setting is still Falcon Crest.

 infinite_array wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Come on guys. You know perfectly well you-know-who isn't dead. It's one of those fake deaths that happens so much more often then real deaths in the books. For all the hardcore named character killing he does, the truth is like 3 characters "die, but just kidding lol" for every sean bean Ned Stark.

Apparently the way to tell if someone is dead or not in GRRM's books is by the POV of the character's death.

If it's someone watching someone else die, they're dead.

If it's someone who's the current POV, and they 'die', they're not actually dead.

Wasn't it on Arya's POV when Eddard got beheaded?

 djones520 wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Come on guys. You know perfectly well you-know-who isn't dead. It's one of those fake deaths that happens so much more often then real deaths in the books. For all the hardcore named character killing he does, the truth is like 3 characters "die, but just kidding lol" for every sean bean Ned Stark.

Apparently the way to tell if someone is dead or not in GRRM's books is by the POV of the character's death.

If it's someone watching someone else die, they're dead.

If it's someone who's the current POV, and they 'die', they're not actually dead.

Wasn't it on Arya's POV when Eddard got beheaded?

Yes, and it makes no sense to have it set this way. That would be a dead giveaway for the mortalities of the next two books. And, I mean, people can blackout and survive from various injuries.

I also agree with Ouze. For all the hype around how brutal Martin is with his characters, he still pretty much follows standard storytelling structures. Davos wasn't dead, and everyone knew it. Aria wasn't killed at the red wedding when the Hound hit her head with his axe, and everyone knew it. Brianne wasn't dead, and everyone knew it. Jamie isn't dead, and ya'll know it.

I'm on the fence with Stannis. However much I like him, his death and defeat would probably advance storyline more than his winning the siege of Winterfell.

Jon will survive for the same reason, I think. Surviving the attack means that he no longer has to be bound to the Night's Watch, and that opens many doors.

I really dislike the whole 'mystery dragon-rider' thing, I hope it never gets to that. I hope the story gets resolved at the realpolitik level, not the high-fantasy one. Ideally, the dragons would be killed in the next book, or Danny goes evil.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Come on guys. You know perfectly well you-know-who isn't dead. It's one of those fake deaths that happens so much more often then real deaths in the books. For all the hardcore named character killing he does, the truth is like 3 characters "die, but just kidding lol" for every sean bean Ned Stark.

Apparently the way to tell if someone is dead or not in GRRM's books is by the POV of the character's death.

If it's someone watching someone else die, they're dead.

If it's someone who's the current POV, and they 'die', they're not actually dead.

Wasn't it on Arya's POV when Eddard got beheaded?

Yes, and it makes no sense to have it set this way. That would be a dead giveaway for the mortalities of the next two books. And, I mean, people can blackout and survive from various injuries.

I also agree with Ouze. For all the hype around how brutal Martin is with his characters, he still pretty much follows standard storytelling structures. Davos wasn't dead, and everyone knew it. Aria wasn't killed at the red wedding when the Hound hit her head with his axe, and everyone knew it. Brianne wasn't dead, and everyone knew it. Jamie isn't dead, and ya'll know it.

I'm on the fence with Stannis. However much I like him, his death and defeat would probably advance storyline more than his winning the siege of Winterfell.

Jon will survive for the same reason, I think. Surviving the attack means that he no longer has to be bound to the Night's Watch, and that opens many doors.

I really dislike the whole 'mystery dragon-rider' thing, I hope it never gets to that. I hope the story gets resolved at the realpolitik level, not the high-fantasy one. Ideally, the dragons would be killed in the next book, or Danny goes evil.

I could maybe see one of the dragons being killed before facing the Others. But far too much effort has been put into them to have them die before reaching Westeros. I suspect it would be Viserion if any dragon died because he is the cute lovable and nice dragon. All the others are kind of monstrous or dark. I mean after five books of the author going on about how badass dragons are and Dany raising these things I kind of expect them to actually do something besides give Dany yet another crushingly sad moment.

However, this series will not and cannot resolved at the real politick level for exactly the same reason you couldn't in Mass Effect. Yes, everybody overcoming their issues and fighting the Others will make things easier and be very prominent but we all know it is going to require a sacrifice/dues ex machina magic thing to defeat the others. Like the reapers they are too much of a threat to be defeated by conventional means and this is always going to limit their power. Also, Dany will arrive VERY late in the Game of Thrones, if she even is involved in it at all, the dragons primarily exist to offset some of the extreme advantages that the Others possess. Plus, you have noticed the magic escalating with every installment? This isn't going to end with a political solution. I know a lot of people aren't going to like that but the simple truth is that the Game of Thrones is not the heart of the story and is simply an obstacle to everyone fighting the Others.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I could maybe see one of the dragons being killed before facing the Others. But far too much effort has been put into them to have them die before reaching Westeros.

That's the thing, there hasn't been any effort put into them. I mean, from a storytelling point of view, no one cares if raising a dragon is hard. What matters is how mind-shatteringly OP they would be if let loose in Westeros. All of a sudden, all those characters we've seen being built up for the last 5 books are irrelevant to the power balance. As far as twist goes, that's a bad one. The dragons, on the other hand, have had no screen time whatsoever, and have all existed for us only in Danny's point-of-view. That's why, ultimately, she matters, and they don't.

However, this series will not and cannot resolved at the real politick level for exactly the same reason you couldn't in Mass Effect. Yes, everybody overcoming their issues and fighting the Others will make things easier and be very prominent but we all know it is going to require a sacrifice/dues ex machina magic thing to defeat the others. Like the reapers they are too much of a threat to be defeated by conventional means and this is always going to limit their power.

That's assuming that the high-fantasy end of the plot will be resolved, and there is no guarantees of that.

Also, Dany will arrive VERY late in the Game of Thrones,

She could arrive in Westeros as early as midway through the next book, which will open on the battle for Mereen. Once Victarion takes the port, she can pretty much leave.

Plus, you have noticed the magic escalating with every installment? This isn't going to end with a political solution. I know a lot of people aren't going to like that but the simple truth is that the Game of Thrones is not the heart of the story and is simply an obstacle to everyone fighting the Others.

That would ruin the story, and I have faith Martin will realize that. He isn't the greatest writer there is, but he is a very good storyteller. Shifting the focus to the high-fantasy side while resolving the realpolitik would take more than 2 books, unless they are going to be utterly massive. And the political side is the true side of the story.

Martin has said that Winds of Winter will likely be another 1500 page tome.

Also, he's mentioned more than once in the past year or so that Dany will not be making it to Westeros in Winds...

I suspect a big issue will be how Dany the person is able (or not able) to ensure that her dragonriders remain loyal. This is a personal issue for her and throws up all sorts of issues. Remember, Aegon had to marry his sisters to make sure they didn't run off with their dragons. So this will be about Dany the person and her personal relations. In that sense it will centre around her. One dragon rider defects and that ends her advantage. Also, betrayel is a huge theme in Danys arc.

Martin has left a lot of things for Dany to do in Winds of Winter in Essos. It is extremely unlikely that she could be in Westeros by the end of winds; much less the end of part 1. We have 30 POV characters atm and a lot of plot is needed to move things forward. ADWD was all about setting up this very complicated situation in Essos, it did not bring Dany any closer to Westeros; she is still as far away as she was in ASOS. But a brief list of things to do...

-Return to Mereen and get her dragons back
-Resolve gak with Tyrion and Jorah and Vic if he isn't dead.
-Resolve or leave the slaves in Mereen.
-Get the Dothraki on side. This is a story arc in of itself and even if Tyrion and Vics POV deal with the Battle for Mereen (which is a multi stage battle involving separate stages) this is still stacking a huge number of chapters.
-Find some way of reaching the Free Cities.
-Fast travel to the free cities.
-In Tyrions POV we are told that the people of Volantis are waiting for Dany and all of the fire worshippers are ready to serve her. Because its in the way she has to deal with the slavers there or come to some accord with the people there.
-Finally IMO everything will be tied together with our heroine embracing her role as prophesised savior as she learns of the Others.

Compare that to what she does in A Storm of Swords.
-Travels to Astapor
-Frees Unsullied
-Fights Yunkish
-Fights Mereenese
-Exiles Jorah and decides to stay.

It will be a major struggle for Martin to resolve all of that in Winds of Winte; never mind her invading Westerosr. Martin spent 6 long years writing ADWD so he could set all of this up and introduce places like Volantis and Mereen. I refuse to believe that he would ignore or brush over these plot points. She is not just going to get Jhaoqo Khalessar and fast travel to Pentos in two chapters. That is simply not going to happen.

What's this about Jon Snow being the son of Rhaegar? I do not recall reading that.

EDIT: After a bit of research, it appears to be mere speculation.

I though it's already been established that Jon's mother is a milkmaid named Wylla? That's been stated by Eddard himself, as well as Eldric Dayne, who also had Wylla as a milkmaid.

I'd rather have Hodor as one of the Dragon riders. That would be crazy awesome.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What's this about Jon Snow being the son of Rhaegar? I do not recall reading that.

EDIT: After a bit of research, it appears to be mere speculation.

I though it's already been established that Jon's mother is a milkmaid named Wylla? That's been stated by Eddard himself, as well as Eldric Dayne, who also had Wylla as a milkmaid.

I'd rather have Hodor as one of the Dragon riders. That would be crazy awesome.

Its a very common assumption made about the books and yeah it Is speculation. However, lets face it, every bastard in every fantasy novel ever written has a hidden heritage.

Ned has reason to lie. Robert would kill any spawn of Rhaegar because he would believe it would have been born from rape (we don't know either way).

Edric? Is that Darkstar? I wouldn't call him reliable...I'd call him the night.


Personally I would prefer if he weren't a secret Targ as it would be cliché, take away from Danys arc and would render a lot of his arc on the wall a bit pointless if he was all this time meant to take the throne. However I simply take it as fact because the House of the Undying prophecy regarding the blue rose in the ice wall. The blue rose is associated with Lyanna Stark and the wall...you get the idea. It is also mentioned in a trio involving Khal Drogo. So, Dany and Jon are probably gonna get married and fall in love. Again, I don't like the implications of that prophecy. But its gonna happen down the road in Drewam of Spring.

Daenarys - She is spending the book at the Dothraki sacred place trying to convince the Dothraki, who are very set in their ways that normal rules for women dont apply to her. When she wins the argument due to her dragon she will marxch out with a real horde rather than a band of fifty.
Her role in this book will be overcoming sexism.

Jon - He is dead. However Melisandre will sort that out pretty much immediately and a fast resurrection is a largely lossless one so he ill be intact. Technically his watch is now over, even if it isnt the message Rob had for him is due to arrive soon, Blackfish escaped and that is where he is heading. With Jon released from his oath by the wishes of a King, and restored to the name of Stark he will be freed to do what he wants to do.
His portion of the book will be a dilemma of duties, defend against the White Walkers or avenge the House of Stark. I think he will end up doing both, but may die in the process, GRRM said the ending of the series is 'bittersweet'. I am taking that to mean some heroes die, some villains are amongst the big winners, and my guess is that specifically means Jon and Littlefinger respectively.

Tyrion - The only character in the book I think has survivor fiat, I will be very suprised if he doesn't survive to the end. However he will have to dodge and dance to do so. Tyrion is a leaf on the winds at the moment but I think he will gain the trust of Dany's court. Varys thinks high enough of him, so Mopatis might also put in a good word out of self interest. However I think Tyrion will be relying on his wits to survive, fortunately he is well armed.
Tyrions role is as real main character, and comic relief combined.

Young Grif - At the end of book five Kevan is murdered by Varys so that a master plan for this young man's benefit can fall into place. If we learned one thing from the series it is that master plans tend to meet setbacks. From the 'chess' match with Tyrion we already know the young prince is rash. He will be first atop the wall at Storms End, and he will die there. In many series the man groomed from birth as a rival is a late game player held back and brought in as a trump card. GRRM is better than that, just because whole nations are resting on a single person and just because whole plot networks are arranged for his elevation, doesn't mean he cant fall at the first hurdle. This has been forshadowed, his mentor even condemned himself to greyscale to remain active to support him, too bad.
This character is a piece of counter-cliche, the long awaited hero/saviour/answer who just fails leaving the whole plot hanging.

Asha Greyjoy - Will put her brother out of his misery and then start trying a 'Kill Bill' on Boltons. I also think she will fail and possibly meet a grisly end herself.

Arya Stark - Will upstage her, but not yet. Wait until the last book for a murder spree with this girl on the hilt. Until then Arya will be described as assassin in training, something rarely shown. Most assassins just are, they come pre-packaged, few authors flesh out the origins of this character class. GRRM will do for assassins what Elizabeth Moon did for paladins, make them real.

Jaime - Don't be fooled by his weakness, Jaime hasn't been into a real fight he is still suffering from depression. However his skills as a swordsmen are there just waiting for the right moment to be unlocked, Dead Cats minions will be the sorry fools to get the full force of a left-handed kingslayer beatdown. By the way this could happen, cross skilling for amputees, even sudden regaining of ability has a basis in fact.
Jaime's role in this job will be for a surprise factor, made real because his restoration was forshadowed, he has not been in a real fight since he lost his hand and his weakness is played out visibly but doesnt actually make sense. Jaime's journey is also a tale of scumbag to nice guy, personally I hope he makes it. Daenarys wont like him and will want him killed, but she has a strong sense of justice, if Brienne lives to inform her why Jaime killed his king Dany will pardon him and send him home to rule whats left of Casterley Rock.

Davos - Poor Davos, isnt it prophesied that Stannis will betray him?

Melisandre - Will realise that Stannis is not the lord of light reborn, Jon is. So she will drop him without a second thought.

Stannis - ....This will depress Stannis immensely as he has prostituted his moral values and murdered his brother partly at Melisandre's beckoning, when she abandons him for a new shiny he will want to do something about it. Pity he is holed up in the middle of nowhere in a deep winter expected to last the best part of a decade. Sucks to be him.

Victarion - Will get a dragon. His is necessary as one of the dragons must go to an adversary for the plot balance to be maintained and also to allow for an epic dragon fight in the last volume.

I actually think Jorah will get a dragon and end up back with his ex-wife; who then convinces him to betray Daenerys.

Victarion is so being set up for a fail. Martin will not have a character spend eight chapters telling us how badass he is and destined to win and ride a dragon to succeed. He is like Stannis pre-blackwater. Also Martin called him "dumb as a stump".


I really think Danys role is going to be her embracing this savior role because she is arguably the prophesised figure from three separate cultures and at least two of them are determined to let her know this (Marywn and Moqorro).

Just to point out - Jamie cannot get Casterly Rock since he's not Tywin's true son...

Experiment 626 wrote:
Just to point out - Jamie cannot get Casterly Rock since he's not Tywin's true son...

Based on what?

 djones520 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Just to point out - Jamie cannot get Casterly Rock since he's not Tywin's true son...

Based on what?

His aunt, Lady Genna Lannister (well, now a Frey unfortunately!), in AFFC's tells him, ""Jamie," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloack... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you..."

Jamie & Cersi are bastards!
(we simply don't know who's yet though, but my guess is Kevan did deed...)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Just to point out - Jamie cannot get Casterly Rock since he's not Tywin's true son...

Based on what?

His aunt, Lady Genna Lannister (well, now a Frey unfortunately!), in AFFC's tells him, ""Jamie," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloack... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you..."

Jamie & Cersi are bastards!
(we simply don't know who's yet though, but my guess is Kevan did deed...)

She was referring to temperment, not blood, in that conversation.

 djones520 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 djones520 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Just to point out - Jamie cannot get Casterly Rock since he's not Tywin's true son...

Based on what?

His aunt, Lady Genna Lannister (well, now a Frey unfortunately!), in AFFC's tells him, ""Jamie," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloack... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you..."

Jamie & Cersi are bastards!
(we simply don't know who's yet though, but my guess is Kevan did deed...)

She was referring to temperment, not blood, in that conversation.

Um.....

The major suggestion of this comes in Danys POV when Barristan admits that Aerys the Mad King had the hots for Joanna Lannister. Tywins WIFE. According to Barristan certain "liberties" were taken in the bedroom and Aerys made no secret of his lust for the woman. When Dany presses him on this he says "I am sorry your grace I fear I have said too much". Either, this is a red herring, or it is a huge hint that Jamie/Cersei are secret Targs. Which explains A LOT about their behavior as well as the irony that Tywin spurned his true son.

Or they are all Targs, and Tyrion will still be a dragon rider and/ or King down the line.

So far he has made the best ruler out of anybody in the book, and there are numerous instances of people mentioning that a small person can cast a very large shadow.