Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Isengard wrote:
There's no point in complaining about a publicly quoted company maximising profit, they have a responsibility to their shareholders to do so.

The point is that acting like used car salesmen can reduce profit because people get tired of it and stop going in the store. GW does it because it doesn't require actually thinking about the specifics of the gaming hobby, you just hand the employees a generic salesman script and set a target of 9999999 starter sets per month to sell. It's the kind of stupid counter-productive thing that impresses low-information investors but harms the company in the long run.

An independent store owner, on the other hand, isn't forced to mindlessly obey a script written by someone with no direct experience in the art of selling games or risk losing their job, they're free to give each customer an appropriate amount of help.

To maximise profits regulars were to be driven off by being cold-shouldered.

The sheer stupidity of this is just unbelievable. GW doesn't advertise at all, those veterans are the only reason anyone ever gets into the hobby. So not only does driving off veterans cost GW sales directly it also cuts into their supply of new customers. Though I guess if you're one of GW's competitors you really love this approach.

I read the article and I agree with the author especially about the salesman tactics.

My breakup was especially painful for me.

 MRPYM wrote:
I read the article and I agree with the author especially about the salesman tactics.

My breakup was especially painful for me.

I think this is probably the thing I dislike the most about GW stores currently. You are basically haggled the moment you walk into the door. They ask you all kinds of questions regarding what you play, what your working on etc, not because they are genuinely interested in your passion but rather as to what products they feel you need to buy.

The other main issue I have is I play IG. You know how many IG products are available at my local GW? Basically nothing. There are like 4-6 Necron HQ options in the store & 0 IG options. They have a cadian infantry box, a basilisk, a leman russ & chimera. That is it. When I bring this up I am told "You can direct order for no shipping cost!" If its between me driving 1 hour to GW or paying $5.00 to have it shipped to my home I'll take the latter. Having a GW store with a skeleton selection of products in it is not going to bring in return customers. Fortunately I have 10+ independent retailers in the area that also sell 40k products with a vast inventory so I go through them.

 Skriker wrote:
Usually all it took for me in a GW store was discussing my history (been playing since Rogue Trader) the number of armies I have and have had (currently 11 armies built or in various states of progress, plus more than a dozen others built in the past only counting 40k and WFB) to get them to stop the hard sell and just chat for a bit and then leave me to my browsing. I haven't seen and done *everything*, but I've seen enough in the hobby to know what I like and don't like and no newly trained sales person is going to change that.

I'm exactly the same - but more than once, the "new-timers" (the freshly trained fresh-faced ones) don't pick up on this. They just use the information on what you collect to turn it around and try and sell you more.

On only one occasion I had to flat out tell the sales guy that his efforts and patter were giving me more impetus to walk out the door without buying anything and if he wanted to make a sale he'd shut up and leave me alone unless asked for directly for help.

You should NEVER HAVE EVEN COME CLOSE TO HAVING TO SAY THIS. The fact that you did speaks volumes about the pushiness of the sales techniques. Bear in mind the level of pushiness compares to the techniques frequently mentioned at used car dealerships and large chain PC resellers - places known for being ridiculously pushy even to people who aren't "veterans in the field".

Uurgh - large chain pc sellers...

"This one comes with a free printer and monitor"
"No thanks, I just need a tower"
"Its a really good deal!"
"Maybe so, but I've got them already thanks"
"It saves you money!"
"No it doesn't, I don't need them - incidentally, this pc isn't the same price as it said on the label, is it definitely the right one?"
"Yep definitely"
"Are you sure? it looks smaller"
"Its definitely the right one"
"No its not, the barcode is different - look. Have you got the right one in the back?"
"I'll just check...,we don't have that one in stock at the moment"
"Are there any other stores with one in in the local area?"
"I'll just check - yes"
"can you reserve it for me to go there and collect?"
"No"
"Bye"

I'd also like to add phone shops to the list of pushyness. In fact any shop that doesn't give me time to browse before I'm asked what I want.
So pc's, clothes shops and phones are my worst.

GW doesn't come close to those for me.

PredaKhaine wrote:
Uurgh - large chain pc sellers...

"This one comes with a free printer and monitor"
"No thanks, I just need a tower"
"Its a really good deal!"
"Maybe so, but I've got them already thanks"
"It saves you money!"
"No it doesn't, I don't need them - incidentally, this pc isn't the same price as it said on the label, is it definitely the right one?"
"Yep definitely"
"Are you sure? it looks smaller"
"Its definitely the right one"
"No its not, the barcode is different - look. Have you got the right one in the back?"
"I'll just check...,we don't have that one in stock at the moment"
"Are there any other stores with one in in the local area?"
"I'll just check - yes"
"can you reserve it for me to go there and collect?"
"No"
"Bye"

I'd also like to add phone shops to the list of pushyness. In fact any shop that doesn't give me time to browse before I'm asked what I want.
So pc's, clothes shops and phones are my worst.

GW doesn't come close to those for me.

indeed...

of course most PC shops are crap anyway and I usually research the product i'm after before I buy it, so if they try the jargon they are only preventing me from giving them my money

GW is not that bad, the stores I know are decent and respect you, they don't mind a chat but they don't push things but that's because when they ask they get a guarded warning of what I've got etc it usually puts them off

 Peregrine wrote:

Isengard wrote:
There's no point in complaining about a publicly quoted company maximising profit, they have a responsibility to their shareholders to do so.

The point is that acting like used car salesmen can reduce profit because people get tired of it and stop going in the store. GW does it because it doesn't require actually thinking about the specifics of the gaming hobby, you just hand the employees a generic salesman script and set a target of 9999999 starter sets per month to sell. It's the kind of stupid counter-productive thing that impresses low-information investors but harms the company in the long run.

An independent store owner, on the other hand, isn't forced to mindlessly obey a script written by someone with no direct experience in the art of selling games or risk losing their job, they're free to give each customer an appropriate amount of help.

To maximise profits regulars were to be driven off by being cold-shouldered.

The sheer stupidity of this is just unbelievable. GW doesn't advertise at all, those veterans are the only reason anyone ever gets into the hobby. So not only does driving off veterans cost GW sales directly it also cuts into their supply of new customers. Though I guess if you're one of GW's competitors you really love this approach.

I think the essential point is that we as veteran gamers who know what we like and understand the hobby well, etc despise this sort of thing, but GW's management are only interested in maximising profits period. If they think the sales patter works they'll enforce it, if their research tells them that regulars don't spend as much as a constant stream of short-term customers then they'll look at how they can ensure that they get that stream. We hate their approach but they are not overly interested in your opinion or mine they have business models and sales targets.

What I'm trying to say is that these things are not done to annoy veterans or regulars in and of themselves, they may have that effect coincidentally. If this happens GW don't care too much, since if they adopt these strategies it's for a reason. Since Brian Ansell sold the company to Kirwin in about 1991 or so they have been a simple commercial firm. I'm of the opinion that Kirwin has always run the company as a personal goldmine. He is not a gamer, I seem to think he was the finance director or similar. He sees the firm as a way to build up his personal fortune. He will retire incredibly rich and he does not care what happens to GW afterwards. If it goes bust the day after he leaves he has got what he wants. The original owners Livingstone and Jackson were gamers first and would take your approach, even Ansell to some extent was. Kirwin is not. He has no long term plan to grow the company, he is only really interested in profitability now.

What I mean overall is that what you think is good business, what would please you is not what the company and its shareholders and consultants are interested in, so you won't see the model you want from them, or I want. To be fair the shops are a huge drain on their finances so they need to maximise their turnover, hence the targets and ruthless approach to removing managers of stores that don't sell enough. GW only follow policies and strategies common to all large retailers. They are not a series of FLGSs, no matter what we wish. Had they gone for a franchise system (probably would have made them more money and saved on overheads) they might be, but they're not.

Personally, I love the two GWs I attend. The larger one ahs lovely employees, they're not pushy, they're friendly, if it's quiet they'll play games with you, all with no pressure. Every time I went in he knew how to work me in to a 40k frenzy and taught me the majority of skills I have for painting/modelling.

The smaller one had the most awesome manager until recently. He'd play whatever music he wanted, the shop's atmosphere was incredibly laid back, he regularly kept the shop open passed closing for the more dedicated crowds. I once asked him for suggestions to spruce up my WG termies, he went to the back and returned with a WHFB Manticore box with the bits to make the manticore missing and told me I could take anything from the box I wanted.

Once his manager told him to clear out his stock room and he put everything he needed to get rid of on one of the tables and invited everyone to just take what they needed.

I miss him a lot.

 Sheokronath wrote:
Personally, I love the two GWs I attend. The larger one ahs lovely employees, they're not pushy, they're friendly, if it's quiet they'll play games with you, all with no pressure. Every time I went in he knew how to work me in to a 40k frenzy and taught me the majority of skills I have for painting/modelling.

The smaller one had the most awesome manager until recently. He'd play whatever music he wanted, the shop's atmosphere was incredibly laid back, he regularly kept the shop open passed closing for the more dedicated crowds. I once asked him for suggestions to spruce up my WG termies, he went to the back and returned with a WHFB Manticore box with the bits to make the manticore missing and told me I could take anything from the box I wanted.

Once his manager told him to clear out his stock room and he put everything he needed to get rid of on one of the tables and invited everyone to just take what they needed.

I miss him a lot.

That story..Is either beautiful or bulls*** lies.

This was probably a while ago when stores had bits box conversion events and things.

I dont know if I agree with his specific points, but I can get behind the idea that there is somthing wrong at the GW franchise stores. Once upon a time I could walk into my local GW and there'd be anywhere between 1 and 3 staff members around. Great guys, easy to talk to, didn't mind if you didn't buy anything, quite friendly. Now . . . now there is only one staff member, and if he's ill or on vacation the store is closed. Ofcourse, it not as bad as another GW store I'm familiar with. I have a friend who lives half hour drive away, and his local GW store had the FLGS immediatly above it. It's a bit tragic when you pass the GW store with it's 1 staff member, and lone customer, then go upstairs to a room packed to the gunnels with people playing everything from Warmachine to Magic to, well, all sorts of things.

I'm kinda wondering if the francinse-gaming-store-business-models is past it's prime.

Isengard wrote:
If they think the sales patter works they'll enforce it

And this is what is so stupid. A FLGS owner has the ability to recognize when it isn't working and switch methods. A GW employee that is constantly terrified of being caught deviating from the script is forced to keep going even when it costs them sales. But the idiots running GW can't seem to figure out that their 1980 copy of Selling Used Cars 101 is a bad idea and we're stuck with mindless obedience instead of actual customer service.

He is not a gamer, I seem to think he was the finance director or similar.

Exactly the problem: idiots who think that all you need is generic "management" skill and understanding the specifics of the industry you're working in is just a waste of time.

He sees the firm as a way to build up his personal fortune. He will retire incredibly rich and he does not care what happens to GW afterwards. If it goes bust the day after he leaves he has got what he wants. The original owners Livingstone and Jackson were gamers first and would take your approach, even Ansell to some extent was. Kirwin is not. He has no long term plan to grow the company, he is only really interested in profitability now.

Yes, this is completely typical of the broken capitalist system we're stuck with. That doesn't mean that short-sighted looting is a good business strategy for the company as a whole.

To be fair the shops are a huge drain on their finances so they need to maximise their turnover, hence the targets and ruthless approach to removing managers of stores that don't sell enough.

The problem is that GW seems to have moved from having sales targets as a method for identifying the lowest-performing stores/employees to having sales targets for the sake of having sales targets. The FW policy in the OP is the textbook example: the manager bans FW models because even though they're generating sales for GW as a whole they aren't generating sales for his store. So you have a manager that is so desperate to meet arbitrary sales targets that they're treating their own company as competition.

Da krimson barun wrote:

 Sheokronath wrote:
Personally, I love the two GWs I attend. The larger one ahs lovely employees, they're not pushy, they're friendly, if it's quiet they'll play games with you, all with no pressure. Every time I went in he knew how to work me in to a 40k frenzy and taught me the majority of skills I have for painting/modelling.

The smaller one had the most awesome manager until recently. He'd play whatever music he wanted, the shop's atmosphere was incredibly laid back, he regularly kept the shop open passed closing for the more dedicated crowds. I once asked him for suggestions to spruce up my WG termies, he went to the back and returned with a WHFB Manticore box with the bits to make the manticore missing and told me I could take anything from the box I wanted.

Once his manager told him to clear out his stock room and he put everything he needed to get rid of on one of the tables and invited everyone to just take what they needed.

I miss him a lot.

That story..Is either beautiful or bulls*** lies.

Having seen other people's experiences with GW, I don't blame you for not believing me, but I assure you he was real and my experiences true.

He left in the end though, and got replaced by a guy who turned the store really unfriendly. Karma, eh?