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Asked and answered.
It's MC and Infantry (respectively). Upgrading a model doesn't change the unit type.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kisada II wrote:
A rule that says it benefits the whole unit doesn't mean every member has the rule / trait. If all the members with the rule die they take the rule with them.

Sure - irrelevant distinction, but correct.

Preferred enemy doesn't say target unit. That is the problem.

In 40k do you attack units or models?

But if its MC and Infantry, will PE (MC) work then? If it does, you are getting to reroll hits and wounds against infantry models because those rolls are done against the overall unit before wound allocation to specific models. If it doesn't work, you lose the effects of PE against the MC (which is the reason you wanted PE to begin with).

So which option is right?

Jefffar wrote:
But if its MC and Infantry, will PE (MC) work then?

You're misunderstanding me. You asked 2 questions and I answered 2 questions.

A Riptide with drones is an MC unit. A Kroot squad with Carnivores is an Infantry squad.

If it does, you are getting to reroll hits and wounds against infantry models because those rolls are done against the overall unit before wound allocation to specific models. If it doesn't work, you lose the effects of PE against the MC (which is the reason you wanted PE to begin with).

So which option is right?

The former.
Just like you are rolling to wound against T3 in a squad of Hormagaunts with a Tyranid Prime (T5) attached, even if he's leading.

What about this situation.
Kroot squad with hounds. Part way through the game all the kroot are dead and only hounds are left. I shoot it with PE (beasts) Is it still an infantry squad or does my PE work now?

My FLGS rules it that only one model in the target unit has to be the PE to get the benefit using Hunters from Hyperspace as a precedent. However HFH states this interaction in its rules/Necron FAQ so I concede that it doesn't really work in as a precedent in a RAW discussion for PE.

Warfrog wrote:
What about this situation.
Kroot squad with hounds. Part way through the game all the kroot are dead and only hounds are left. I shoot it with PE (beasts) Is it still an infantry squad or does my PE work now?

Still an Infantry squad. Squad type stays the same unless a rule changes it.
Surprise, my answers aren't going to change regardless of how many circumstances you throw out there.

rigeld2 wrote:

Warfrog wrote:
What about this situation.
Kroot squad with hounds. Part way through the game all the kroot are dead and only hounds are left. I shoot it with PE (beasts) Is it still an infantry squad or does my PE work now?

Still an Infantry squad. Squad type stays the same unless a rule changes it.
Surprise, my answers aren't going to change regardless of how many circumstances you throw out there.

I wasn't expecting your answer to change. I was just asking for clarification for myself. Everyone examples still involved mixed units I was just curious how a mixed unit with only 1 model type remaining would interact.

You seem to be mistaking unit type for unit composition. Yes, the starting unit composition for a Kroot Carnivoire Squad is 10 Kroot and yes Kroot have the unit type Infantry, but the Kroot Hounds that form a part of that unit have the unit type Beasts. They still move and act as Beasts, but they must stay in coherency with the unit in question.

Take another Tau hybrid unit for example, a Firewarrior Team plus a couple of Marker Drones. The all are Infantry but the Drones are Jet Pack as well. This means that those Marker Drones can fire their Markerlights normally after moving because they are relentless. It also means that the Drones can use their Thrust move to reposition themselves in the Assault Phase, but have to stay in coherency with their stationary Firewarrior companions.

No, I'm mistaking nothing.
Individual models work differently - I haven't ever said differently.
But a unit of Fire Warriors with drone upgrade is still a unit of Fire Warriors when it gets shot at. What type of unit is a unit of Fire Warriors?

A unit of Fire Warriors and Drones is a mix of Infantry and Infantry, Jet Pack.

Unit Type is attached to the stat line of the model, not the unit.

Do you attack models or units?

Every time I see a question of 'What type of unit is X' I keep wanting to scream out their force organization slot as the answer.

rigeld2 wrote:
Do you attack models or units?

Where aside from the model stat line does it say the unit type?

Pages 410-413in the BRB, referenced by page 44.

Unit types are for (amusingly enough) the unit.

rigeld2 wrote:
Pages 410-413in the BRB, referenced by page 44.

Unit types are for (amusingly enough) the unit.

Page 44 "[snip] that lists each model's unit type."

That to me says unit type is on a model by model basis. So a unit of Kroot with Hounds that only have hounds remaining should be a beast unit.

Page 410 to 413 of the BRB are superseded by the codices. Show me in Codex TE where a unit of Kroot and Kroot Hounds is all Infantry and I will happily agree they are.

rigeld2 wrote:RAW it's an Infantry unit and a MC unit (respectively).
Upgrades don't change the unit type unless specified.

rigeld2 wrote:RAW it's an Infantry unit and a MC unit (respectively).
Upgrades don't change the unit type unless specified.

Let me get this straight, your saying that an HT that joins a unit of Tyrant Guard is no longer a MC?

 Abandon wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:RAW it's an Infantry unit and a MC unit (respectively).
Upgrades don't change the unit type unless specified.

rigeld2 wrote:RAW it's an Infantry unit and a MC unit (respectively).
Upgrades don't change the unit type unless specified.

Let me get this straight, your saying that an HT that joins a unit of Tyrant Guard is no longer a MC?

No, he is saying that the unit is an Infantry unit. The Tyrant is still an MC, however, for rules purposes, he is part of an Infantry unit.

MC is a unit type. Your saying it's both unit type: MC and unit type Infantry?

 Abandon wrote:
MC is a unit type. Your saying it's both unit type: MC and unit type Infantry?

No we are not.

The unit [Tyrant Guard Brood] is an infantry unit. If a Hive Tyrant joins the unit [Tyrant Guard Brood] than the unit [Tyrant Guard Brood] is an Infantry unit. The Hive Tyrant is still unit type (Monstrous Creature).

 Happyjew wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
MC is a unit type. Your saying it's both unit type: MC and unit type Infantry?

No we are not.

The unit [Tyrant Guard Brood] is an infantry unit. If a Hive Tyrant joins the unit [Tyrant Guard Brood] than the unit [Tyrant Guard Brood] is an Infantry unit. The Hive Tyrant is still unit type (Monstrous Creature).

So its a unit with two different unit types... being as one member is a MC and the rest are infantry...

The MC unit type is irrelevant as far as PE is concerned.
Because the MC unit can never be attacked.

 Abandon wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
MC is a unit type. Your saying it's both unit type: MC and unit type Infantry?

No we are not.

The unit [Tyrant Guard Brood] is an infantry unit. If a Hive Tyrant joins the unit [Tyrant Guard Brood] than the unit [Tyrant Guard Brood] is an Infantry unit. The Hive Tyrant is still unit type (Monstrous Creature).

So its a unit with two different unit types... being as one member is a MC and the rest are infantry...

So its a two unit type unit, can you show us where the rules are in the BRB for a mixed unit type unit?. It is still a infantry type as the Hive tyrant has joined a tyrant guard becoming part of the tyrant guards unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

Warfrog wrote:
What about this situation.
Kroot squad with hounds. Part way through the game all the kroot are dead and only hounds are left. I shoot it with PE (beasts) Is it still an infantry squad or does my PE work now?

Still an Infantry squad. Squad type stays the same unless a rule changes it.
Surprise, my answers aren't going to change regardless of how many circumstances you throw out there.

Both the Hive Tryant +TG and tau Drones, would seem to indicated otherwise. The HT is not an IC and this is important. When it becomes a part of the TG unit it gains the infantry type Infantry for its UNIT type. Because it is not an IC it can never leave the unit, so based on what you are saying, when TG die the Tyrant cannot revert to being a Unit (MC) as it can not leave the TG unit. Current supported ruling for play say the HT reverts back to be Unit MC

The Tau FW + Drones squads also specifically tell you that the mixed unit behave differently. When all the FW dies the unit is now a Drone unit and follows all drone rules losing the Troop and Unit Infantry status. While it could be a drone specific ruling, I would say combined the HT it would appears that unit such as the Krrot + hounds and all the Kroot died would change to Unit beast. This also follows the RAI/HIWPI indicated by the RAW of the IC rules to follow majority Unit type when determining what unit is.

Suddenly you have a reason to take 2 drones with that Riptide, I know the above could make some weirdness like this possible, but seem to match RAW and RAI the best.

The Tyrant is actually an IC in the guard unit - he just cannot leave.

The drone ruling is drone specific.

How about a Goaded Great Knarloc? The initial unit composition is a MC (the Great Knarloc) and 8 Infantry models (the Goads). So without options being exercised you have 2 Unit Types in a single unit.

Or how about those Eldar fire support batteries? The gunners are Infantry and the weapons are Artillery.

Or a Space Wolves Lone Wolf an infantry character specifically prevented from joining or being joined by any other unit, but can include two Fenresian Wolves in his unit which are Beasts. The Iron Priest is another non-independent character of the Infantry persuasian and his unit can upgrade with Servitors (infantry) and Fenresian Wolves.

Speaking of Fenresian Wolves, they are a frequent upgrade for characters in the Space Wolves codex. Another character upgrade is riding a Thunderwolf (Cavalry) which actually restricts that character to being in units consisting only of other Thunderwolf riders and/or Fenresian Wolves.

It seems to me like there are plenty of hybrid units that consist of multiple unit types already. Viewing them as exceptions or anomolies would be in error.

Jefffar wrote:
Or how about those Eldar fire support batteries? The gunners are Infantry and the weapons are Artillery.

Odd, because my codex says the crew has a Unit Type of Artillery.

It would still be nice if they would produce some sort of errata or rules on how to deal with 'mixed unit types.' While he might of been in slight error over one unit, Jeffa is still correct in pointing out that models of different unit types being bundled into a single unit are not an anomalous occurrence. Several codex's contain such units outright while every Independent character could, in theory anyway because there probably are a few that can not, create a unit that consisted of mixed unit types. To have an official answer as to how a handful of rules, those directly related to a single unit type, would be resolved against a 'mixed-unit' could prevent many arguments that undoubtedly form whenever those rules and units collide.

Did I ever say hybrid units are anomalous? Pretty sure I never did.

The Goaded Great Knarloc is a FW unit and they aren't known for amazing rules clarity.
The Space Wolves examples mean nothing because they introduce no issues.

rigeld2 wrote:The Tyrant is actually an IC in the guard unit - he just cannot leave.

The drone ruling is drone specific.

Not quite true, the HT can only join as if it were an IC. None of the other IC rules carry over.

Barnowl is correct, the HT can never leave the unit.... so per your interpretation, it remains part of a unit of Tyrant Guard even after they are all dead and would be treated as an infantry unit though somehow still being treated as a MC at the same time.

I must say, there's really no concrete RAW here imo so I won't say your wrong nor will I argue with your logic in reaching your conclusion but I will say it seems to me that it is not the only logical conclusion one could come to given the lack coverage in this area by the BRB.

 Abandon wrote:
Not quite true, the HT can only join as if it were an IC. None of the other IC rules carry over..

Which ones? I know for a fact it can LOS! as if it were an IC, as well as make Precision Shots/Strikes.