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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/25 23:33:45
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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Happyjew wrote: Abandon wrote:Not quite true, the HT can only join as if it were an IC. None of the other IC rules carry over..
Which ones? I know for a fact it can LOS! as if it were an IC, as well as make Precision Shots/Strikes.
It's still a character, it's just not an IC.
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-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/25 23:35:11
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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Ahh, yes, blew the Vaul's Vengeance Battery, my bad.
Still, lots of hybrid units out there without stretching to IC shenanigans and the rules don't mention what happens with Prefferred Enemy and them.
Here's another interesting Preferred Enemy, one of the conditions sometimes seen on Preferred Enemy in the Space Wolves codex is a Toughness of 5 or more. So what happens when a unit with that Preferred Enemy attacks a Necron Destroyer Lord (T6) leading a squad of Wraiths (T4)?
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Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/25 23:36:00
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Abandon wrote: Happyjew wrote: Abandon wrote:Not quite true, the HT can only join as if it were an IC. None of the other IC rules carry over.. Which ones? I know for a fact it can LOS! as if it were an IC, as well as make Precision Shots/Strikes. It's still a character, it's just not an IC. From the Tyranid FAQ: "A single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision Shots and Precision Strikes."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/25 23:36:11
Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 00:17:27
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Happyjew wrote: Abandon wrote: Happyjew wrote: Abandon wrote:Not quite true, the HT can only join as if it were an IC. None of the other IC rules carry over..
Which ones? I know for a fact it can LOS! as if it were an IC, as well as make Precision Shots/Strikes.
It's still a character, it's just not an IC.
From the Tyranid FAQ:
"A single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes."
Still not become one and only gets most not all of the IC rules FAQed to it. It still has the problem of never being able to leave the unit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 00:48:29
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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The Hive Mind
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Abandon wrote:rigeld2 wrote:The Tyrant is actually an IC in the guard unit - he just cannot leave.
The drone ruling is drone specific.
Not quite true, the HT can only join as if it were an IC. None of the other IC rules carry over.
Barnowl is correct, the HT can never leave the unit.... so per your interpretation, it remains part of a unit of Tyrant Guard even after they are all dead and would be treated as an infantry unit though somehow still being treated as a MC at the same time.
I must say, there's really no concrete RAW here imo so I won't say your wrong nor will I argue with your logic in reaching your conclusion but I will say it seems to me that it is not the only logical conclusion one could come to given the lack coverage in this area by the BRB.
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the relevant FAQs.
Nid FAQ wrote:Page 35 – Tyrant Guard, Shieldwall.
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read “A single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision Shots and Precision Strikes”.
And you should read the IC rules to see what happens when the IC is the only member of a unit left alive. Automatically Appended Next Post: Jefffar wrote:Ahh, yes, blew the Vaul's Vengeance Battery, my bad.
Still, lots of hybrid units out there without stretching to IC shenanigans and the rules don't mention what happens with Prefferred Enemy and them.
Here's another interesting Preferred Enemy, one of the conditions sometimes seen on Preferred Enemy in the Space Wolves codex is a Toughness of 5 or more. So what happens when a unit with that Preferred Enemy attacks a Necron Destroyer Lord (T6) leading a squad of Wraiths (T4)?
He's attacking a T4 unit.
How is this difficult to accept? Automatically Appended Next Post: barnowl wrote: Happyjew wrote: Abandon wrote: Happyjew wrote: Abandon wrote:Not quite true, the HT can only join as if it were an IC. None of the other IC rules carry over..
Which ones? I know for a fact it can LOS! as if it were an IC, as well as make Precision Shots/Strikes.
It's still a character, it's just not an IC.
From the Tyranid FAQ:
"A single Hive Tyrant (including the Swarmlord) may join a unit
of Tyrant Guard exactly as if it had the Independent Character
special rule and, while part of the unit, is treated as such for
the purposes of Look Out Sir! rolls, Challenges, Precision
Shots and Precision Strikes."
Still not become one and only gets most not all of the IC rules FAQed to it. It still has the problem of never being able to leave the unit.
It joins exactly as an IC, which has specific rules on what happens when it's the last member of the unit.
And no, it can't leave the unit while the Guard is alive... Page 3 of the Nid FAQ says so.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/26 00:53:05
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 01:06:06
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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rigeld2 wrote:
Still not become one and only gets most not all of the IC rules FAQed to it. It still has the problem of never being able to leave the unit.
It joins exactly as an IC, which has specific rules on what happens when it's the last member of the unit.
And no, it can't leave the unit while the Guard is alive... Page 3 of the Nid FAQ says so.
Join's as if it has the special not gains the special rule. That is were I disagree with you. You imply that it gains the rule, I see ti as only doing what it says, allowed to join as one during deployment.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 01:08:49
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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The Hive Mind
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It's not limited to during deployment - it can happen during the game as well.
And you're right - it doesn't gain the rule, it just joins exactly as one and gets all the other benefits.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 01:39:08
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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It specifies for what purposes it is treated as an IC. Being the last member of the unit or indeed, leaving it in any way is not among them.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/26 01:41:49
-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/26 03:10:23
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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The Hive Mind
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Abandon wrote:It specifies for what purposes it is treated as an IC. Being the last member of the unit or indeed, leaving it in any way is not among them.
Once the models with the Shieldwall ability die, the Tyrant can no longer benefit from the rule - meaning he cannot be joined to a (no longer existent) unit.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 02:09:18
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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rigeld2 wrote: Abandon wrote:It specifies for what purposes it is treated as an IC. Being the last member of the unit or indeed, leaving it in any way is not among them.
Once the models with the Shieldwall ability die, the Tyrant can no longer benefit from the rule - meaning he cannot be joined to a (no longer existent) unit.
Unless you see joining the unit as a one time exercise of the SR and once done the rule is no longer needed. Consider a situation where an IC also joined the Tyrant Guard as well as a HT and all the Tyrant Guard are killed....
anyways, its a bit off topic.
Back on the main point of the thread. It seems to me the main question here is what makes a unit into a unit of a particular type? Is a unit of SM infantry a unit of SM infantry because the unit has unit type infantry and is from the SM codex or is it because the models in the unit have unit type infantry and are from the SM codex? It seems to me you purchase the models in the unit and they come with the type - infantry, MC, vehicle, etc. and a unit is just a unit with all the other types coming from it's models.
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-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 04:30:26
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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rigeld2 wrote:Jefffar wrote:Ahh, yes, blew the Vaul's Vengeance Battery, my bad.
Still, lots of hybrid units out there without stretching to IC shenanigans and the rules don't mention what happens with Prefferred Enemy and them.
Here's another interesting Preferred Enemy, one of the conditions sometimes seen on Preferred Enemy in the Space Wolves codex is a Toughness of 5 or more. So what happens when a unit with that Preferred Enemy attacks a Necron Destroyer Lord (T6) leading a squad of Wraiths (T4)?
He's attacking a T4 unit.
How is this difficult to accept?
Because he's attacking a unit of T4 and T6 models. Last I heard Units don't have a Toughness stat and the entry in Space Wolves specifies Models with a Toughness of 5 or more, so it doesn't care about things like Majority Toughness. All it wants is a Model with Toughness 5 or more.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/08/27 04:31:28
Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 04:59:09
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Infiltrating Broodlord
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Also worthy of note here. Logically when attacking a unit, until all hits and wounds have been resolved you are actually attacking every member of the unit, attacking no members, both and neither.
If you shoot Schrodinger's Box with a high powered rifle, did you attack a cat? Among the correct answers is a yes so if you had PE (cats) you'd get to re-roll To-Hit and wounds rolls of 1.
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-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 13:18:57
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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The Hive Mind
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Jefffar wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Jefffar wrote:Ahh, yes, blew the Vaul's Vengeance Battery, my bad.
Still, lots of hybrid units out there without stretching to IC shenanigans and the rules don't mention what happens with Prefferred Enemy and them.
Here's another interesting Preferred Enemy, one of the conditions sometimes seen on Preferred Enemy in the Space Wolves codex is a Toughness of 5 or more. So what happens when a unit with that Preferred Enemy attacks a Necron Destroyer Lord (T6) leading a squad of Wraiths (T4)?
He's attacking a T4 unit.
How is this difficult to accept?
Because he's attacking a unit of T4 and T6 models. Last I heard Units don't have a Toughness stat and the entry in Space Wolves specifies Models with a Toughness of 5 or more, so it doesn't care about things like Majority Toughness. All it wants is a Model with Toughness 5 or more.
When he attacks, what toughness does he roll to wound? Oh, T4.
So there's no T5+ ever involved. Gotcha.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 20:57:13
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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No, it specifies Models with T5+. It doesn't care about unit or majority Toughness and Toughness has nothing to do with the To Hit roll.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/27 20:57:46
Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 21:01:50
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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The Hive Mind
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Then it's useless as you do not attack models ever.
Except in a challenge so it'd work there.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 21:03:40
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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You certainly do attack models. It just happens that usually you are attacking a group of them rather than lone ones.
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Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 21:07:07
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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The Hive Mind
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Jefffar wrote:You certainly do attack models. It just happens that usually you are attacking a group of them rather than lone ones.
Citation needed. The actual rules disagree with you.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 21:20:37
Subject: Re:Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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Sure, check out page 3 of the main rule book. "A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together . . . "
So a Unit is made up of Models.
So if you are attacking a Unit, you are attacking a group of Models.
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Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 21:25:43
Subject: Re:Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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The Hive Mind
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Jefffar wrote:Sure, check out page 3 of the main rule book. "A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together . . . "
So a Unit is made up of Models.
So if you are attacking a Unit, you are attacking a group of Models.
And the group of models is not their Preferred Enemy. A single model may be, but the group demonstrably isn't.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 21:54:04
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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But that model is in the group, so is potentially subject to the attack.
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Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 22:32:29
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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The Hive Mind
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Jefffar wrote:But that model is in the group, so is potentially subject to the attack.
Wrong. That would be attacking an individual model which you're never allowed to do.
You're allowed to attack the group as a whole.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 22:39:52
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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Exactly, and the group as a whole includes its unique members. For example the Riptide and its Drones.
As all members of the group are under attack, then the conditions of Preferred Enemy are met.
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Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 22:48:39
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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The Hive Mind
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Jefffar wrote:Exactly, and the group as a whole includes its unique members. For example the Riptide and its Drones.
As all members of the group are under attack, then the conditions of Preferred Enemy are met.
No, because all members of the group are not the Preferred Enemy. One model is, but that's not the requirement put forth by the PE rule.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/27 23:30:03
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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Nor is it excluded either, which is where the problem comes in as the rule is worded without thought to this possible situation.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/08/27 23:31:22
Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/28 00:00:04
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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The Hive Mind
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Jefffar wrote:Nor is it excluded either, which is where the problem comes in as the rule is worded without thought to this possible situation.
It is excluded. The requirement in the PE rule is that you're attacking your preferred enemy, correct?
Since you do not attack a model (in most circumstances) it doesn't apply in cases where a single model in the target unit triggers PE.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/28 01:29:26
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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But the unit contains the enemy, so you are attacking it.
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Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/28 01:56:19
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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The Hive Mind
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Jefffar wrote:But the unit contains the enemy, so you are attacking it.
No, you're attacking the unit. Since that's what the rules say and all...
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/28 04:19:12
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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The unit which is made up of models. The models which have characteristics that trigger the effects of Preferred Enemy.
By your reasoning Preferred Enemy would almost never work because things like Unit Type, Special Rules and Characteristics are keyed to the models, not the unit.
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Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/28 04:29:37
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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The Hive Mind
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Jefffar wrote:The unit which is made up of models. The models which have characteristics that trigger the effects of Preferred Enemy.
Have you found permission to attack a model yet? You haven't cited one.
By your reasoning Preferred Enemy would almost never work because things like Unit Type, Special Rules and Characteristics are keyed to the models, not the unit.
If all the models have a trait it can be said that the unit has that trait.
But saying that the unit has that trait because a single model in the unit does is incorrect.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/08/28 05:53:49
Subject: Preferred Enemy: Mixed Targets
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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When you attack a unit you attack all its constituent models, so you have permission to attack models. There's just some (surmountable) restrictions on which order the models actually take wounds, but that happens after rolling to wound.
So if a single model in a unit is not enough to give a unit that trait, what happens when you have a Riptide and 2 Drones? Does Preferred Enemy Monstrous Creature still work? By your logic no.
In fact, by your logic, that unit is also immune to Preferred Enemy Infantry because not all the models in the unit would be the Infantry type.
Hey, this gets better and better the more I think about it, as the unit would be immune to abilities that specifically target Infantry or Monstrous Creatures.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/08/28 05:58:17
Tau and Space Wolves since 5th Edition. |
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