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Jefffar wrote:
When you attack a unit you attack all its constituent models, so you have permission to attack models. There's just some (surmountable) restrictions on which order the models actually take wounds, but that happens after rolling to wound.

That's simply incorrect. You've failed to cite a rule allowing you to attack models.

So if a single model in a unit is not enough to give a unit that trait, what happens when you have a Riptide and 2 Drones? Does Preferred Enemy Monstrous Creature still work? By your logic no.

This is a different argument. The unit type is MC and no rules allow you to change it just by purchasing upgrades.

Hey, this gets better and better the more I think about it, as the unit would be immune to abilities that specifically target Infantry or Monstrous Creatures.

If they require attacking the unit...

"When you attack a unit you attack all its constituent models,"

Citation needed. Prove this assertion.

You have made a logical leap, unsupported by rules.

P.4, it's the definition of a unit.

Kisada II wrote:
P.4, it's the definition of a unit.

But attacking the whole does not mean you are attacking each individual part of the whole. You're just attacking the unit.

Kisada II wrote:
P.4, it's the definition of a unit.

That doesnt prove that you attack each model - your target is the unit, and nothing more. You are explicitly NOT targeting all the models

So, again, a line stating you attack all models. Real rules this time, ones that are relevant to your assertion, or concede the point.

So as I have said, again, An Eldar Farseer can get into a Devilfish so long as it is joined to a Tau unit.

Because the unit being a tau unit may embark on the Tau Transport.

Sorry, wasn't trying to defend the position that attacking a unit meant attack each model individually. Was simply stating that a unit is defined as a group of Models. No where in the rule book does it talk about a unit belonging to just one codex. In fact the rule for embarking into allied transports directly contradicts that for that reason.

If a unit is defined as a grouping of one or more models then an attack on said unit is also an attack on those models. We don't learn which specific models suffer the consequences of the attack until such time as wound allocation occurs.

Which, if you strictly beleive that only traits possessed by the unit matter, other than Prefferred Enemy (Army Type), Prefferred Enemy won't work as the other defining characteristics used for Prefferred Enemy are on the individual models, not the Unit in the new Codexes.

So no Prefferred Enemy Monstrous Creature or Infantry or Models with a Toughness of 5+ at all.

Really just needs an FAQ, and talk with your TO / play group before hand to how you'll be playing it in your games

Quite badly, yes.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So as I have said, again, An Eldar Farseer can get into a Devilfish so long as it is joined to a Tau unit.

Because the unit being a tau unit may embark on the Tau Transport.

This does seem to be the way the thread is going.

Fortunately for me, I disagree both with the argument here against Preferred Enemy, AND your earlier argument about ICs in allied transports! But it does look like some other people are going to have to change their previous positions...!

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So as I have said, again, An Eldar Farseer can get into a Devilfish so long as it is joined to a Tau unit.

Because the unit being a tau unit may embark on the Tau Transport.

This does seem to be the way the thread is going.

Fortunately for me, I disagree both with the argument here against Preferred Enemy, AND your earlier argument about ICs in allied transports! But it does look like some other people are going to have to change their previous positions...!

I'm fine with you disagreeing. However, I disagree that it should have been brought up in the first place. The embarkation on allied transport thing.

It is mostly off topic, but it does follow the same logic as certain posters are using here. So by following that logic for one principle - mixed units only have one Army Type for Preferred Enemy - you are pretty much stuck with the other - mixed units have only one Army Type for boarding transports.

It just keeps going back and forth, but I would think that if you were shooting at a Tau unit with a SM IC then you would not get preferred enemy, but if you had a special rule or something that allowed you to target individual models then you would get preferred enemy.

Jefffar wrote:
If a unit is defined as a grouping of one or more models then an attack on said unit is also an attack on those models.

No, it's really not. Addressing them as models means you're trying to address them individually and you have no permission to.

Which, if you strictly beleive that only traits possessed by the unit matter, other than Prefferred Enemy (Army Type), Prefferred Enemy won't work as the other defining characteristics used for Prefferred Enemy are on the individual models, not the Unit in the new Codexes.

No, that's not true either. As I've said. Not that it would matter if that's what the rules actually said - you're trying to appeal to intent or HYWPI, not the actual rules.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
So as I have said, again, An Eldar Farseer can get into a Devilfish so long as it is joined to a Tau unit.

Because the unit being a tau unit may embark on the Tau Transport.

This does seem to be the way the thread is going.

Fortunately for me, I disagree both with the argument here against Preferred Enemy, AND your earlier argument about ICs in allied transports! But it does look like some other people are going to have to change their previous positions...!

I'm fine with you disagreeing. However, I disagree that it should have been brought up in the first place. The embarkation on allied transport thing.

I brought it up because this thread exactly parallels my point.

For the record I also assert that the IC becomes subject to Preferred enemy

Please prove that units have a unit type. I only see that models have a unit type and happen to come in units.

rigeld2 wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
But that model is in the group, so is potentially subject to the attack.

Wrong. That would be attacking an individual model which you're never allowed to do.
You're allowed to attack the group as a whole.

Attacking the whole group is exactly the same as attacking each member. It is actually you who is considering them individually and for some reason separating out the IC from the rest stating he doesn't count for some reason without rules back-up. The IC is part of the unit just like every other member and just like them, has a unit type and codex affiliation. It makes no logical sense to say that when attacking the unit as a whole you are not attacking the IC.

rigeld2 wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Exactly, and the group as a whole includes its unique members. For example the Riptide and its Drones.

As all members of the group are under attack, then the conditions of Preferred Enemy are met.

No, because all members of the group are not the Preferred Enemy. One model is, but that's not the requirement put forth by the PE rule.

PE does not care if you are attacking foes that are not the proffered enemy. It only care if you are attacking the preferred enemy.

rigeld2 wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
The unit which is made up of models. The models which have characteristics that trigger the effects of Preferred Enemy.

Have you found permission to attack a model yet? You haven't cited one.

By your reasoning Preferred Enemy would almost never work because things like Unit Type, Special Rules and Characteristics are keyed to the models, not the unit.

If all the models have a trait it can be said that the unit has that trait.
But saying that the unit has that trait because a single model in the unit does is incorrect.

Incorrect. A unit has everything the models in the unit have because it is made of it's models. That the whole unit does not have the same things does not change that.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kisada II wrote:
P.4, it's the definition of a unit.

But attacking the whole does not mean you are attacking each individual part of the whole. You're just attacking the unit.

What individual part? All the models are the whole. Which is what your attacking, the whole, as in all of it. Not just the part it started as.

Kisada II wrote:Really just needs an FAQ, and talk with your TO / play group before hand to how you'll be playing it in your games

Yes. This very much please.

Kommissar Kel wrote:So as I have said, again, An Eldar Farseer can get into a Devilfish so long as it is joined to a Tau unit.

Because the unit being a tau unit may embark on the Tau Transport.

Why would a Tau/SM unit no longer be a Tau unit?

 Abandon wrote:
Please prove that units have a unit type. I only see that models have a unit type and happen to come in units.

I'll let you reread my posts - I've addressed this.

rigeld2 wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
But that model is in the group, so is potentially subject to the attack.

Wrong. That would be attacking an individual model which you're never allowed to do.
You're allowed to attack the group as a whole.

Attacking the whole group is exactly the same as attacking each member. It is actually you who is considering them individually and for some reason separating out the IC from the rest stating he doesn't count for some reason without rules back-up. The IC is part of the unit just like every other member and just like them, has a unit type and codex affiliation. It makes no logical sense to say that when attacking the unit as a whole you are not attacking the IC.

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, you're attacking the unit. And an IC is a - wait for it - normal member of the unit. Treating him as something other than that would be breaking a rule.

The problem here is that you are making assumptions that "normal member of a unit" (which by the way is not the wording in the rule book) actually means anything other than "All rules purposes" and by All rules purposes I mean the rules and restrictions in the rulebook pretaining to units.
This nonsense about the IC being consider part of a different detachment directly violates the allies rules in the rulebook. The idea of a unit being limited to one "unit type" (poor choice of words on GWs part) directly violates the examples in the rule of models moving at different speeds due to different unit types.
Units Group models and they work together and benifit/hinder each other that is it.

Most, if not all, of the examples you have laid out for a Unit having something (like defensive grenades) actually explicitly state If one or more MODELS have it then the unit gets the benefit.

We don't know if Attacking your preferred enemy means: "at least one model in the target unit" or "all models" or "majority of models" it's not in there anywhere.

Your arguement for it being the unit that got joined makes sense, but it's not founded in the rules as they written and it's full of holes when you join multiple ICs together to form a unit or multiple unit types. It's a similar problem with hatred (let me stop hating that chaos space marine, because he is joined up with some daemons.....wait you can't do that, you know what I mean)

We play it as "At least one model" for both hatred and Preferred Enenmy. This rules or written approach for Units (where a unit is simply a grouping for rules purposes) keeps allied ICs out of transports from different detachments. Meaning that All rules purposes goes both ways, if he can't get in neither can they.

Kisada II wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes, you're attacking the unit. And an IC is a - wait for it - normal member of the unit. Treating him as something other than that would be breaking a rule.

The problem here is that you are making assumptions that "normal member of a unit" (which by the way is not the wording in the rule book) actually means anything other than "All rules purposes" and by All rules purposes I mean the rules and restrictions in the rulebook pretaining to units.
This nonsense about the IC being consider part of a different detachment directly violates the allies rules in the rulebook.

No, no it does not. In fact the exact opposite is true with Battle brothers, the very first sentence of the rules defines Battle brothers as "Friendly Units". Therefore when the IC joins a unit he stops being a Battle Brother as defined and instead become part of the unit "for all rules purposes".

We don't know if Attacking your preferred enemy means: "at least one model in the target unit" or "all models" or "majority of models" it's not in there anywhere.

Except we absolutely do know. Units Shoot at/Attack Units. A unit from the Preferred Enemy Codex is a preferred enemy(this as a concept is defined in an earlier Special Rule: Hatred). An IC Joins a unit, and becomes part of that unit for all rules purposes. So A Tau Fire Warrior unit is a Tau unit. When you add an Eldar Farseer to that Fire Warrior unit the unit is still a Fire Warrior unit, just the same as if An Ethereal had joined the unit.

Your arguement for it being the unit that got joined makes sense, but it's not founded in the rules as they written and it's full of holes when you join multiple ICs together to form a unit or multiple unit types. It's a similar problem with hatred (let me stop hating that chaos space marine, because he is joined up with some daemons.....wait you can't do that, you know what I mean)

Again, the rules exactly state that the IC joins the unit, and the IC becomes part of the unit.

This does not fall apart with Multiple ICs. If the ICs all join a unit, then they all become part of that unit. If you join multiple ICs together they all become part of the first IC joined's unit. For example I have an IG army with a Lord Commissar, a Psyker, and A Priest; I first join the psyker to the Lord Commissar, he is now a part of the Lord Commissar unit. I then join the Priest to the unit and he joins and become a part of the Lord Commissar unit(even though that unit now contains a Psyker). This is exactly what the rules say and really isn't that hard.

For your argument about hatred, that may not make sense to you, but it is what the rules say. Heck Hatred even makes the Point that it only effects units from the hated Codex, ICs joined to unit are no longer units in their own right(Or can I specifically shoot your IC "unit" within the greater unit he joined?).

First of all the rulebook explicitly says, that an Allied IC can never enter the a transport of a different detachment it's right bellow the part where it gives them permision to join the unit.
But the common line of thinking that has gone through this thread, would lead to that conclusion, of that I agree.

Second, hatred actually says "Any model" from that codex in it's definition for when you get the bonus, the unit part you are referring to is one of the two options of what you are allowed to hate.

Again "All rules purposes" as laid out for rules pretaining to units in the rule book does not in any way say that a unit belongs to one codex.

Please provide referrence to an Allied IC becoming a member of a different codex (nevermind the fact that it would totally invalid half the FAQs that clarify only members from the codex benefit from codex specific abilities... looking at you Blood Angels... or the fact that GW has gone out of their way to )

A farseer is not the same as an etherial joining firewarriors, there are plenty of codex specific buffs for both those codexs

Kisada II wrote:
First of all the rulebook explicitly says, that an Allied IC can never enter the a transport of a different detachment it's right bellow the part where it gives them permision to join the unit.

Correct. The IC is not entering the transport - the unit is. The IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes. Denying the IC the right to embark is breaking that rule.

Again "All rules purposes" as laid out for rules pretaining to units in the rule book does not in any way say that a unit belongs to one codex.

Is it a rules purpose? Then it's covered.

Please provide referrence to an Allied IC becoming a member of a different codex (nevermind the fact that it would totally invalid half the FAQs that clarify only members from the codex benefit from codex specific abilities... looking at you Blood Angels... or the fact that GW has gone out of their way to )

You're misunderstanding or misrepresenting.
The IC does not change what codex it's from. But its a member of a Tau unit for all rules purposes.

A farseer is not the same as an etherial joining firewarriors, there are plenty of codex specific buffs for both those codexs

Depending on the wording of the buff, it would work. Because for all rules purposes the farseer/ethereal are members of the unit.

No it explicity states that not even Battle Brothers may enter an allied transport, and Battle Brothers is defined in that first sentence as a Friendly unit; which an attached IC is not.

But I wasn't talking about the Transport issue, I was talking about the Basic IC Rules, and how they interact with Battle Brothers in general(it just happens to relate back to the Transport thing).

Second: Conceded.

Third: Is Preferred Enemy a Rule? If it is a rule, then The IC counts as part of the unit for it's purposes, and Units attack units, so when a Unit with preferred enemy makes its attacks on a unit that is a preferred enemy(even with an attached non-preferred IC who is counting as a member of the preferred unit for all rules purposes); then the Unit is attacking a preferred foe.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No it explicity states that not even Battle Brothers may enter an allied transport, and Battle Brothers is defined in that first sentence as a Friendly unit; which an attached IC is not.

An attached IC is not a unit in any way and therefore cannot be a Battle Brother.

Third: Is Preferred Enemy a Rule? If it is a rule, then The IC counts as part of the unit for it's purposes, and Units attack units, so when a Unit with preferred enemy makes its attacks on a unit that is a preferred enemy(even with an attached non-preferred IC who is counting as a member of the preferred unit for all rules purposes); then the Unit is attacking a preferred foe.

I agree with that (and said as much).
Read and follow the thread.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:


Third: Is Preferred Enemy a Rule? If it is a rule, then The IC counts as part of the unit for it's purposes, and Units attack units, so when a Unit with preferred enemy makes its attacks on a unit that is a preferred enemy(even with an attached non-preferred IC who is counting as a member of the preferred unit for all rules purposes); then the Unit is attacking a preferred foe.

I wouldn't argue against any one wanting to play it this way, but they still need to FAQ it as Hatred uses the term "striking a hated foe" and clearly applies to any model being hated and preferred enemy uses very similar term "specific type of foe" but doesn't explicit define what that means (if you only attack units then Hatred wouldn't work at all and clearly it is suppose to).

For the Allied IC thing I'm looking at the page and what you wrote and I think you are technically correct (the best kind of correct I might add).

rigeld2 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Please prove that units have a unit type. I only see that models have a unit type and happen to come in units.

I'll let you reread my posts - I've addressed this.

rigeld2 wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
But that model is in the group, so is potentially subject to the attack.

Wrong. That would be attacking an individual model which you're never allowed to do.
You're allowed to attack the group as a whole.

 Abandon wrote:

Attacking the whole group is exactly the same as attacking each member. It is actually you who is considering them individually and for some reason separating out the IC from the rest stating he doesn't count for some reason without rules back-up. The IC is part of the unit just like every other member and just like them, has a unit type and codex affiliation. It makes no logical sense to say that when attacking the unit as a whole you are not attacking the IC.

No, it's not the same as attacking each member. I'm not considering each member individually. I've supplied rules that back up my statement.
When you declare a shooting attack do you target the unit or the IC?

rigeld2 wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Exactly, and the group as a whole includes its unique members. For example the Riptide and its Drones.

As all members of the group are under attack, then the conditions of Preferred Enemy are met.

No, because all members of the group are not the Preferred Enemy. One model is, but that's not the requirement put forth by the PE rule.

PE does not care if you are attacking foes that are not the proffered enemy. It only care if you are attacking the preferred enemy.

Right - and if you're attacking something that is demonstrably not the preferred enemy you don't get the bonus. Which is what I said.
So you agreed with me? I'm not sure of your point here - could you clarify?

rigeld2 wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
The unit which is made up of models. The models which have characteristics that trigger the effects of Preferred Enemy.

Have you found permission to attack a model yet? You haven't cited one.

By your reasoning Preferred Enemy would almost never work because things like Unit Type, Special Rules and Characteristics are keyed to the models, not the unit.

If all the models have a trait it can be said that the unit has that trait.
But saying that the unit has that trait because a single model in the unit does is incorrect.

Incorrect. A unit has everything the models in the unit have because it is made of it's models. That the whole unit does not have the same things does not change that.

Citation needed. Units do not have frag grenades, models do. Units do have defensive grenades though.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kisada II wrote:
P.4, it's the definition of a unit.

But attacking the whole does not mean you are attacking each individual part of the whole. You're just attacking the unit.

What individual part? All the models are the whole. Which is what your attacking, the whole, as in all of it. Not just the part it started as.

Yes, you're attacking the unit. And an IC is a - wait for it - normal member of the unit. Treating him as something other than that would be breaking a rule.

page 44 BRB "unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile ... you will find a complete at-a-glance bestiary that (amongst other things) lists each model's unit type."
Unit type comes from the models, not the unit. The profile for each model has a unit type, it does not come with the unit by default. A unit of infantry is only called an infantry unit because it has one or more models of the infantry unit type. As you have yet to show any 'default' unit type exists it seems fairly clear that the unit type for the whole unit can only be derived from its constituents. As the IC becomes a member of the unit for all rule purposes, why do you believe its unit type would not contribute to this? Or for that matter, why not its army type(source codex)?This is why I asked for proof that a unit has a type and not just the models and I do not see that you have actually addressed this other than to reference page 44 which as you can see, does not back up your stance.

You keep acting like a unit is somehow separate from its models. It is not. It is its models. Attacking a unit is attacking its models. That is the only way PE works since the models have all the characteristics. To the extent that the IC is part of a unit and that unit is under attack, the IC is under attack just like every other model in the unit. The fact that PE does not care if you are not attacking the preferred enemy matters because the models in a unit that are not the preferred enemy do not counteract the fact that the preferred enemy models are part of the unit. I only mention it because you keep stating that because you are attacking models that are not your preferred enemy you don't get the bonus but that point is irrelevant to the rule as the rule does not care about it. The rule only cares that you are attacking a preferred target, no matter if any non-preferred targets are mixed in with it. So attacking a mixed unit, PE does not care about unit types that are not the preferred target, only the ones that are.

Attacking the whole unit. If the whole unit is three infantry and an MC then three infantry and an MC is what you are attacking when you attack the whole unit. I don't know how you could see that any other way.

How do you determine a unit's unit type?
It must be he models that make up the unit.
When an IC joins the unit, he cannot change the unit type - if he does you're not treating him as a member of the unit for all rules purposes.

This extends to your fallacy regarding attacking the unit.
If you attack a unit of Tau and have PE SM, you don't get re-rolls if there is a SM OC attached to the Tau unit. If you did you'd be treating the IC as something other than a member of the unit for a rules purpose which would be illegal. Your target is unarguably a Tau unit.

Your MC +3 Infantry example depends on how the unit was created.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No it explicity states that not even Battle Brothers may enter an allied transport, and Battle Brothers is defined in that first sentence as a Friendly unit; which an attached IC is not.

An attached IC is not a unit in any way and therefore cannot be a Battle Brother.

Third: Is Preferred Enemy a Rule? If it is a rule, then The IC counts as part of the unit for it's purposes, and Units attack units, so when a Unit with preferred enemy makes its attacks on a unit that is a preferred enemy(even with an attached non-preferred IC who is counting as a member of the preferred unit for all rules purposes); then the Unit is attacking a preferred foe.

I agree with that (and said as much).
Read and follow the thread.

Yes, I know; and the post I made was not directed towards you; it was directed to the gentleman I quoted.

Kisada: Hatred is a rule that explicitly states that it is Model vs Model, just because it uses the term "Hated Foe" really means nothing. Preferred enemy does not have the distinction of Model on Model in its rules, so we have to go with the baseline Units attack units(and Preferred Enemy counts on all attacks, not just the first round of a close combat).

rigeld2 wrote:
How do you determine a unit's unit type?
It must be he models that make up the unit.
When an IC joins the unit, he cannot change the unit type - if he does you're not treating him as a member of the unit for all rules purposes.

This extends to your fallacy regarding attacking the unit.
If you attack a unit of Tau and have PE SM, you don't get re-rolls if there is a SM OC attached to the Tau unit. If you did you'd be treating the IC as something other than a member of the unit for a rules purpose which would be illegal. Your target is unarguably a Tau unit.

Your MC +3 Infantry example depends on how the unit was created.

Since the models, members of the unit, determine the units type it seems you would actually need permission to exclude a member for that purpose. An IC is after all a member for all rules purposes.

So, to be clear, your claim is that when attacking, you attack the unit as a whole, not any specific part therefore the IC is not being attacked only the unit as a whole is. Correct?
By definition, attacking the whole is attacking every part. If the whole group(the unit) is being attacked, every member is being attacked.

Unit type is a Model by Model Rule, it is a part of a model's profile.

A Unit of Guardians with an attached Autarch on a jetbike does not Change either the Guardian's, nor the Autarch's Unit types, they are still infantry and he is still Jetbike.

They are, however, still as a whole a unit of guardians; and thus would be the preferred enemy of a unit that had preferred enemy(Guardians).