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 Abandon wrote:
Yes I feel quite comfortable in the assumption that PE is intended to work in more than just challenges. PE on non-characters would otherwise be pointless so it's really just the standard assumption the SR is intended to have an effect for all the models they give it to. We should attempt, where possible, to translate the written text into a working system so when we find areas where things could be taken several ways we should keep such basic assumptions in mind.

That's fair.

With that in mind and exceptions aside it becomes necessary to acknowledged that a unit is not a separate entity from its models. They are one and the same and no distinction can be drawn between the two. Models are what carry the characteristics that most every PE targets so to look at them as separate would cause the SR not to function. Agreed?

Yes, models are what carry the characteristics.
No, looking at them as separate does not cause the SR not to function.

So you believe a unit is a separate entity from its models?
Edit: What is a unit in your opinion?

The rules do make distinctions between Models and units.

But those rules only apply to the situations where the rules make the distinction.

In Shooting and assault you attack the unit(not challenges though) you do not attack the individual models.

Since you do not attack the models but only the unit and the IC joins and counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, any rules that effect the unit are applied to all members of the unit. Any rules that only apply to certain models only apply to those models when they have call to apply(wound allocation mostly).

That's the best way to word what I was trying to say. Thanks KK.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Absolutely; the Special rules, Abilities and wargear belong to the model. Just like the Character rule belongs to the unit leader(on most units), and the Special and heavy weapons(Wargear) only belong to certain models within the unit.

But don't the special rules , abilities and wargear come from the unit entry ?

No, not necessarily.

The individual models in the unit entry will have the rules, abilities and wargear described therein (A Space marine Sgt is the only model with the Character rule for example, or the model that has the missile launcher is the only model that has the missile launcher).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No, not necessarily.

The individual models in the unit entry will have the rules, abilities and wargear described therein (A Space marine Sgt is the only model with the Character rule for example, or the model that has the missile launcher is the only model that has the missile launcher).

But how did the individual models in the unit get those rules or permission ? from the unit entry in the codex right ?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The rules do make distinctions between Models and units.

But those rules only apply to the situations where the rules make the distinction.

In Shooting and assault you attack the unit(not challenges though) you do not attack the individual models.

Since you do not attack the models but only the unit and the IC joins and counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, any rules that effect the unit are applied to all members of the unit. Any rules that only apply to certain models only apply to those models when they have call to apply(wound allocation mostly).

What rules make this distinction clear? The description of units does not... and this does not really answer my question. What (aside from its models) is a unit in your opinion?

'...any rules that effect the unit are applied to all members of the unit'
Doesn't an attack effect the unit? Applicable (logically so) to all members of the unit? The IC is 'a member for all rules purposes', why are you then claiming it is not under attack like every other member?

1. Hatred(only the models of the type getting attacked in Close combat are effected by it).

Wound allocation(After you have attacked the unit, and caused wounds to the unit based on the Majority toughness of the models in the unit, you allocate those wounds to specific models).

Several of the special rules that benefit units only require 1 model in the unit to have those rules.

2. A unit is a collection of models working as 1 entity(the unit).

3. I don't think you are getting what I am saying and what side I am on.

My Stance: PE does effect a unit with a Battle brother IC attached; but not PE(the battle brother).

Kambian: I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
1. Hatred(only the models of the type getting attacked in Close combat are effected by it).

Wound allocation(After you have attacked the unit, and caused wounds to the unit based on the Majority toughness of the models in the unit, you allocate those wounds to specific models).

Several of the special rules that benefit units only require 1 model in the unit to have those rules.

2. A unit is a collection of models working as 1 entity(the unit).

3. I don't think you are getting what I am saying and what side I am on.

My Stance: PE does effect a unit with a Battle brother IC attached.

Kambian: I am not sure what point you are trying to make.

It seems we have only a slight variance in how we see things here which made me unsure if we were in agreement for all intents and purpose for the subject but it looks like we are, thank you for clarifying



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Directing my questioning back to rigeld2 then.

What, aside from its models, is a unit in your opinion?

It may sound like a dumb question but you've yet to acknowledge that it is the models characteristics that define the unit.
-IE, a unit of Fire Warriors is such because it has Fire Warriors in it

Barring some unknown mechanic a unit does not define its members characteristics.
-IE, models are not Fire Warriors just because they are in a Fire Warrior Unit

Since a unit is defined by its members(models) when an IC joins a unit as a 'member for all rules purposes' its characteristics become just as important as every other members and therefore add to the attributes that define the unit just like the original members.

I updated my Statement, since I realized it may seem like the Battle Brother brings his codex to the unit(he doesn't).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I updated my Statement, since I realized it may seem like the Battle Brother brings his codex to the unit(he doesn't).

Why?



My argument stems from the basic ideology surrounding the construction of a unit. Specifically IE, what makes a unit of Space Marine infantry a unit of Space Marine infantry?

1. A unit of Space Marines
-vs.-
2. A Space Marine Unit

Ostensibly the same but fundamentally different.

1: The fact that 'unit' is left out of the specific title indicates that it is generic and not exclusive to just Space Marines. As such, it has no special characteristics of its own and has affiliation with Space Marines only because of its members. In this case the unit is reliant solely on its members to carry any specific characteristic and will react in a dynamic manner to changes in its members.

2. The 'unit' is part of the title labeling everything in the unit 'Space Marine'. This can only be changed where some rule says it changes and as none exists it never will. No matter how many ICs join or how the model composition might change it will always be a Space Marine Unit.

Did not read the whole thread, but wanted to ask. What kind of unit is it when two IC from different codexs are deployed as single unit.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Did not read the whole thread, but wanted to ask. What kind of unit is it when two IC from different codexs are deployed as single unit.

IMO, it's just a unit that has two members that can leave and become their own unit. While they are together though, their characteristics determine the nature of the unit. Unit type, codex origin, etc. from both models are equally valid as no rule allows one to 'outweigh' the other. This is largely subject to debate though and is central to the discussion.

I used to think a Space Marine Infantry unit was just that because that is what the player purchased from their codex. This thread actually made me deconstruct all my preconceptions about units and I realized that if I was correct last edition i was incorrect in this one. Units are not a static entity that conveys anything to its members(other than BRB unit rules) or holds any characteristic of their own. Nothing I've seen supports that. Instead they are completely reliant on their members to have any attributes at all.

So a Tau IC and a SM IC get deployed together. My opinion, it's a Tau/SM unit, with both unit types as well(if different).