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Playing deathwing in my limited experience something is definetely wrong with standard terminators. I believe the Deathwing Knights are appropriately priced, and I feel like they always carry their weight in points when they jump out of the land raider on someone.

The vanilla deathwing on the other hand are just sad. We've got white scar bikes that can get 2+ cover saves just by turbo-boosting so really where is our advantage? Twin-linked on the turn they arrive? This is all but useless in the games I've played and they never seem to wound anything on that first turn. They're supposed to be defensive monsters, but they're just not. I've been thinking about how you could improve them, and definetely lowering the points cost would be good, here are some other ideas.

1) 2 wounds, if a ravenwing attack bike can get 2 wounds for 45 points, why can't my terminators?

2) lowering all invuln saves by one. 4++ for standard terminators, 2++ for storm shield guys.

3) rapid fire storm bolters, this would make them roughly equivalent of tactical marines as far as fire power goes.

4) ability to assualt from deep strike.

I think any ONE (I'm not asking for everything that would be OP) of these things, or a general points cost lowering would make them playable on a tournament level.

Termies should be costed as:

Marine 14pts
termy armor for single wound model 15pts
storm bolter 2pts
power fist 25pts
-boltgun, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades -5pts
-sweeping advance -4pts
47pts total
elite FOC tax reduction (cant score) 25%
35.75pts

I play standard Space Marine terminators, and I feel like, if anything, they are too cheap. They still hold up reliably well for me, so long as I play them smart. I was actually really shocked they didn't have their price jacked up when the new 'dex dropped.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Are you therefore suggesting that sanguinary guard are worth 40pts a model?

Not even close. Meta change has had a massive impact on them. They are costed to be maneuverable and less resilent versions of Termies. But they are slightly too expensive now due to the shift from balanced to shooty. I'd price them at 30pts, maybe 35 at a stretch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Niexist

1- Ravenwing Attack Bikes have 2 riders and therefore get 2 wounds. Same as HWTs in IG codex.

2- WTF dude? 2+/2++? Troll harder. Please. I dare you. The 4++ for standard Termies I could get aboard with, though it does leave characters with an Iron Halo or Rosarius rather miffed. Why not just get Artificer Armour for less points, better gear and less restrictions?

3- Rapid Fire stormbolters would be identical to Bolters. What you are suggesting is Salvo 4/2, where they get 4 shots at half range and 2 at full. While plausible, it would be a bit much to ask for.

4- Why? What justification do you have? Vanguard Veterans can't do it no more, and they are on equal standing in terms of "Eliteness" in the fluff. I am specifically talking in terms of their training here. All 1st Company marines are trained in using TDA.

 Exergy wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Well first, why should loyalist terminators be cheaper, but Chaos ones remain the same. Loyalists cost 40 points with SB and PF. Chaos ones are 38 with Combibolter and PF. Storm bolters are better than twinlinked bolters and the loyalists get combat tactics and ATSKNF making them much better. If any chaos player could pay 2 points to upgrade their twinlined bolter into a stormbolter, get combat Tactics and ATSKNF they would, every single time.

So no, I cant agree to give Loyalist Terminators a point reduction, they are already much better than their Chaos counterparts.

Do people even take Chaos terminators? I've not seen anyone field them since the 6th ed codex dropped...

And the 2+/3++ might be durable, but volume of fire will do them in everytime, and that's what we see at the moment.

No people do not take Chaos terminators. Unless it is to drop 3 combi meltas behind a tank. The title of this thread is making loyalist terminators cheaper. I completely oppose making loyalist terminators cheaper, but leaving chaos terminators as is.

IMHO stormbolters/combi bolters need to be better and perhaps a slight point decrease for both stock TDA for Loyalists AND Chaos.

In Apocalypse, Chaos terminators are quite good because they score. But, this is only in 3,000+ Pt games.

 Deadshot wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Are you therefore suggesting that sanguinary guard are worth 40pts a model?

Not even close. Meta change has had a massive impact on them. They are costed to be maneuverable and less resilent versions of Termies. But they are slightly too expensive now due to the shift from balanced to shooty. I'd price them at 30pts, maybe 35 at a stretch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Niexist

1- Ravenwing Attack Bikes have 2 riders and therefore get 2 wounds. Same as HWTs in IG codex.

2- WTF dude? 2+/2++? Troll harder. Please. I dare you. The 4++ for standard Termies I could get aboard with, though it does leave characters with an Iron Halo or Rosarius rather miffed. Why not just get Artificer Armour for less points, better gear and less restrictions?

3- Rapid Fire stormbolters would be identical to Bolters. What you are suggesting is Salvo 4/2, where they get 4 shots at half range and 2 at full. While plausible, it would be a bit much to ask for.

4- Why? What justification do you have? Vanguard Veterans can't do it no more, and they are on equal standing in terms of "Eliteness" in the fluff. I am specifically talking in terms of their training here. All 1st Company marines are trained in using TDA.

1) 2 wounds and higher toughness, and the same points cost, where is the advantage for the terminator, because firepower certainly isn't it.

2) I say 2++ because I figures that everything else would have to be moved down 1 as well, including halo's and rosarius. As far as artificer armor being less points, better gear, and less restrictions aren't facts like that the whole reason for this thread?

3) Maybe only allow this on the first turn to represent the surprise of the termies teleporting in behind the enemy and unloading? I understand about twin-linked the turn they arrive, but in my experience that's really meh.

4) The answer to why seems pretty obvious to me, terminators are teleporting while they are deep striking/jump packing in. In fluff terms I picture terminators teleporting in, and attacking their target, guns blazing and thunder hammers swinging, not guns blazing and wait a turn for them to shoot at you, and pick which unit will assualt you.

As I said I don't think we need all four of these, and maybe some like the 4/2 salvo is OP. I just feel like there is something they are really lacking with the extreme focus on shooting that this game has.

1- They get higher toughness for being a Bike, same as every other MEQ biker, and more wounds for having twice as many dudes (in a single model)

2- I honestly can't understand what's being said here. You think Captains and Chaplains should come with a 3++ Standard?

3- Sounds like an idea but what's to stop someone suggesting it for all Deep Strikers? Why not Sternguard in Drop Pods unloading 6 Grav Shots each?

4- Again, where's the justification for them over anyone else? Vanguard Vets can see the enemy from the air as they DS in, whereas Termies don't see untill they arrive.

 Deadshot wrote:
1- They get higher toughness for being a Bike, same as every other MEQ biker, and more wounds for having twice as many dudes (in a single model)

2- I honestly can't understand what's being said here. You think Captains and Chaplains should come with a 3++ Standard?

3- Sounds like an idea but what's to stop someone suggesting it for all Deep Strikers? Why not Sternguard in Drop Pods unloading 6 Grav Shots each?

4- Again, where's the justification for them over anyone else? Vanguard Vets can see the enemy from the air as they DS in, whereas Termies don't see untill they arrive.

I don't know man, these are just ideas I had to make the points cost justifiable, the fact that a turbo-boosting attack bike has more durability than a terminator seems weird to me. I think (remember I'm a new player, so try not to call me a troll if I'm wrong on stuff, or bring ideas to the table) there are far more weapons that have AP than there are that have ignore cover, so to me a white scar attack bike who turbo-boosts, and ends up with a 2+ cover save and 5 toughness has a lot more durability than a terminator.

I'm really not able to look at this issue from a standard marine player with TEQ, because I'm a dark angel player and the rules are a bit different for our terminators. I think ours are right on the cusp of viability but there is something lacking. Compare the standard terminator to a Deathwing Knight which is the same exact same point cost, and actually LESS once you put on chainfists, and special weapons.

In the 13 games I've played (again brand new so maybe it's a lack of experience) My deathwing knights are always my best units. They're T5 most of the time. I put 5 of them in a land raider, put in a 65 pt prescience librarian, and they always manage to destroy a deathstar on turn 2. On turn 3 my opponent usually takes them down to 2 or 3 members left, and they'll usually mess something else up.

On the other hand you have storm bolter PF deathwing terminators. They deep strike and blow their payload which is the fact only twin-linked allowing you to get a couple extra hits, usually if your lucky you'll get 2-3 wounds, then you stand in a circle for a turn waiting to get pie-plated, and shot down to 1-2.

To me, it's just not an equal unit point, for point. I love the deathwing color scheme, they are like super storm troopers, but the more games I play the more I realize they're just notviable. Same thing goes for the deathwing command squad. It's impossible to play them in under 1500 point games, because by the time you pick up your HQ (most likely belial), and your 2 troop choices of terminators you're down 750 points, add in a decked out command squad with a FNP banner you're passing the 1150 point mark, and you only have 21 models on the boards, with no tanks, these models are easily dispatched with by most cheaper models.

I am a long time deathwing player and they were competitive in 5th. i did well in tournaments. In 6th edition before the codex was release they were doing real good.

Then the dark times hit with the new codex. now they are over costed garbage. i retired them to be honest.

Niexist, sorry for calling you a troll. I didn't realise you were new, genuinely thought you were trolling away with the 2++ deal. Apologies!

 Deadshot wrote:
Niexist, sorry for calling you a troll. I didn't realise you were new, genuinely thought you were trolling away with the 2++ deal. Apologies!

It is generally in bad taste to call anyone a troll, whether or not it is true.

Especially when one of the rules is:

Rule 1: Be Polite

This seems obvious, however many folks can sometimes forget that common courtesy goes a long way to lending respect to both you and your opinions. Just because you don't see the other users' faces doesn't mean they don't have feelings and won't be hurt by rude comments or offensive images. When you see something that you find silly, rude or insulting first assume that perhaps there is more to it than you initially thought. Look at it again, keeping in mind that tone and inflection is difficult to convey in a visual format. It may be that the person is attempting a joke or is exaggerating on purpose. It is best to politely request clarification before accusing someone being ignorant, a liar, or worse.

Try to avoid name-calling or even implying insults wherever possible.

Loyalist Terminators would be so much better if they were like the CSM ones, cheaper and with a power weapon.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Niexist, sorry for calling you a troll. I didn't realise you were new, genuinely thought you were trolling away with the 2++ deal. Apologies!

It is generally in bad taste to call anyone a troll, whether or not it is true.

Especially when one of the rules is:

Rule 1: Be Polite

This seems obvious, however many folks can sometimes forget that common courtesy goes a long way to lending respect to both you and your opinions. Just because you don't see the other users' faces doesn't mean they don't have feelings and won't be hurt by rude comments or offensive images. When you see something that you find silly, rude or insulting first assume that perhaps there is more to it than you initially thought. Look at it again, keeping in mind that tone and inflection is difficult to convey in a visual format. It may be that the person is attempting a joke or is exaggerating on purpose. It is best to politely request clarification before accusing someone being ignorant, a liar, or worse.

Try to avoid name-calling or even implying insults wherever possible.

Again, I apologise. I let my real life mannerisms (where I tend to call 'em as I see 'em) get the better of me. I'll aim to keep things in check in future. Again, deepest apoogies Nexiest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although I do stand by my original points, but I will try to rephrase the rudest ones in the correct manner. Simply put, your ideas and justifications are a little excessive, and as you've probably been told already in less couteous tones by myself, the 2++ Termies is really asking for trouble. People would ragequit instantly if it became the case.

In any case, the justifications for your upgrades seem a little out there (notably the Attack Bike and Deep Striking points).

I run 20 Chaos Terminators

ChaosSun88 wrote:
I run 20 Chaos Terminators

....Thats great. Do you also like turtles?

Terminators are fine. I don't remember people complaining this much about terminators when Power Weapons ignored all armor... This change alone makes terminators better than they used to be.

 Col. Dracus wrote:
Terminators are fine. I don't remember people complaining this much about terminators when Power Weapons ignored all armor... This change alone makes terminators better than they used to be.

So many things wrong with this statement, I'll let a more experienced person point them all out.

Ws5 str4 t4 a2 w2 2+/4++
Power weapon, str5 flamer or str6 ap1 melta
Can take a storm.shield at 5pts each or a power fist for same.

40pts, forge world clearly knows how to do termies.

I haven't put all the stats up due to forum rules, but they have big buffs for being salamanders (hh marines), all they lose is deep strike, which they can get for free from a rite of war

How are Terminators costed appropriately when they die just as easy as a normal marine in the current AP2 spam environment?

There not haha, the heresy ones are though but only for heresy games, 40k termies are a joke at the moment but only because of 2 books, if the riptide had ap3 and blade storm wasn't ap2 well... It's and buts and all that

You're all jelly because Dark Angels Termys are so good

 Formosa wrote:
There not haha, the heresy ones are though but only for heresy games, 40k termies are a joke at the moment but only because of 2 books, if the riptide had ap3 and blade storm wasn't ap2 well... It's and buts and all that

Even without those two books, SM termies are still way over costed, especially with the cost drop most every other infantry unit in every 6e codex released thus far has experienced.

well as i said, point tac termies at 35pts a piece, drop the heavy weapons cost to as follows, let them take 3 in a full squad, and allow the serg. to take a thunder shield and they would be good.

heavy flamer-10pts
assault cannon-20pts
typhoon missle launcher-25pts

I think DW terminators are priced well for what they bring to the table. The only thing I would change from them would be giving them the ability to take twice as many heavy weapons per squad. So 5 take two 10 take 4. That way you would take 2 heavy guys and 3 TH/SS for the 3++

sangheili wrote:
I think DW terminators are priced well for what they bring to the table. The only thing I would change from them would be giving them the ability to take twice as many heavy weapons per squad. So 5 take two 10 take 4. That way you would take 2 heavy guys and 3 TH/SS for the 3++

So you're asking for another special ability, which is in essence the same thing as a price reduction, so in reality you don't think they're priced well for what they bring to the table. Anyone (like myself) who plays the deathwing realizes that the standard troop squad at their high pts per mode cost is the weakest thing we bring to the table, and just as expensive if not more than our better units the deathwing knights. If deathwing knights could be made troop choices, I think you'd see a lot more legitimate lists consisting of mostly these guys and little to no standard termies.

 Deadshot wrote:


Not even close. Meta change has had a massive impact on them. They are costed to be maneuverable and less resilent versions of Termies. But they are slightly too expensive now due to the shift from balanced to shooty. I'd price them at 30pts, maybe 35 at a stretch.

A better analogy for Sanguinary Guard is honour guard with jump packs and slightly better power weapons. With a base cost of 25 points giving them artificer armour and a power weapon, adding 3 points for the jump pack (same price as vanguard vets pay) and 2 points for upgrading their power weapons to glaive encarmines you end up at 30 points, which is a nice cost for them. I mean Honour Guard aren't broken, but they are still pretty good as far as close combat units go.

Niexist wrote:

sangheili wrote:
I think DW terminators are priced well for what they bring to the table. The only thing I would change from them would be giving them the ability to take twice as many heavy weapons per squad. So 5 take two 10 take 4. That way you would take 2 heavy guys and 3 TH/SS for the 3++

So you're asking for another special ability, which is in essence the same thing as a price reduction, so in reality you don't think they're priced well for what they bring to the table. Anyone (like myself) who plays the deathwing realizes that the standard troop squad at their high pts per mode cost is the weakest thing we bring to the table, and just as expensive if not more than our better units the deathwing knights. If deathwing knights could be made troop choices, I think you'd see a lot more legitimate lists consisting of mostly these guys and little to no standard termies.

No a price reduction would go something like this
DW terminators are so overpriced at 44 ppm they should be blah blah points. All I said is that it would be better if they had a special ability that lets me take advantage of the fact I can mix shooty and hammer terminators in the squad

DW could be 50 ppm and I would still play them. I love their fluff

Believe me I like my deathwing too, but wouldn't you like to be able to take them to a tournament and have a chance?

I'm not sure what possessed them to raise the price of TH/SS termies in the new dex. I realize they were following suit with the Blood Angels Codex but I always thought their price was raised in that codex due to the slim chance of getting furious charge from red thirst or attaching a Sanguinary Priest to the squad. In the vanilla codex it just seems ridiculous, the only logic I can think of is to make people buy the Vanguard & Sternguard kits.

Uh, because TH/SS terminators negate all the standard weaknesses of Terminators (like Exorcists, Meltaguns, grav guns, etc) and thus become nigh unkillable?