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fattymac04 wrote:
Okay just to clear things up for the person who said the reason why they didnt put magic in front of effects because its redundant

quote from pg. 68

"Conversely, Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects."

First of all, if that was the case the proper way would be to list it as such, "spells, magical attacks, weapons and effects." The fact they left magical off of effects is due to certain abilities and rules in army books and the BRB that can kill the unit without wounding it.

But as it has been said a million times, the main issue is not that ethereal stops non-magical wounds, but how KB and HKB works. As it is written in the BRB

quote from pg. 72

"If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent - regardless of the number of wounds on the victim's profile. Armour saves and regeneration saves cannot be taken against a killing blow. A ward save can be attempted - if passed, the ward save prevents all damage from the killing blow."

Now the steps for determining KB and HKB is this

1)Striking Order
2)Roll to Hit
3)Roll to Wound
---A) Roll Dice that hit to see if they wound
---B) Consult Chart for wounds
4) Take Saving Throws
---A) Armour Save Roll
---B) Regen / Ward save
5) Remove Casualties
----Wounds go into effect

Now KB and HKB take place at the rolling to wound section, where as their special rule, the wound roll of a 6 basically is discounted because the model is slain, aka DEAD, The ethereal rule doesn't take place until you take the wounds which is after saves. because in the rolling to wound phase, you technically haven't taken any wounds yet, its only until after you do the saving throw phase that you actually take them. This is where i think the confusion on this issue is, misreading the rules. KB is a Effect, not an attack or spell or wound, but an effect that kills a creature outright, regardless of rules, unless that creature is not of the correct type, in which case there is HKB, and of course you get to take a ward save is you have one, because magic.

How will you discount the 6?
The roll of a six determines a successful wound against models unless stopped by a save of some sort.
Killing blow cannot take place immediately after rolling the '6' because you still have to rolls saves before casualties are removed.
The roll of 6 applies until you remove casualties.
And yes you take wounds and remove casualties after saves....
So if ethereal takes place after saves that is when you are applying wounds and removing casualties. No magic no wound

'Remove Casualties pg 51,
'With saving throws made or failed, you now need to remove the slain'
How do we determine slain?
Reducing wounds to zero or special rule that states removed as a casualty.

Instant kills on pg 44.
...models to be removed as casualties....number of wounds is irrelevant-just remove the model from play..
Pit of shades..remove as a casualty
purple sun..slain outright
dwellers..slain outright.
dimensional cascade..removed as a casualty
The list can go on through army books
None of these reference wounds.

Killing blow..pg 72

"...slain outright regardless of wounds. " Whether you have 2, 3, 4, 5..it doesn't matter how many, you lose all your wounds.
Killing blow makes constant reference to wounds.
"A ward save can be attempted-if passed, the ward prevents all damage from the killing blow."
It does not say the ward protects from the killing blow. It states prevents all damage.
Killing blow never states remove as a casualty.
It never says you do not wound.. '...slain regardless of the number of wounds on the profile'

Slain is the term used when a model is to be removed with 0 wounds.
As I have stated Killing blow is an effect. It is not magic. The effect is triggered on wounds just as d3 or d6 wounds but it reduces the model to zero wounds.

I understand the desire, especially for those that play tournaments, to find additional ways to damage powerful creatures like ethereal. But I don't believe it is RAW and definitely not RAI.

Killing blow makes constant reference to wounds.

It does. Except it never says it actually does wound(s). And the # of times a word is used doesn't mean you can cobble together rules that don't exist.

It COULD have said it does all the wounds the model possesses without armor and regen saves. In which case Ethereal would block it. Yet it didn't say that. Nowhere once does it say it causes a wound.

In fact it completely bypasses the table that is essential to cause wounds. Unless something says, "unit takes X wounds" you have to roll to wound them. There are no other ways within the BRB and entire of game of WHFB that you can give wounds. They are two whole instances. You can reach them multiple ways (shooting, spells, special rules [stomp, poison, Instability], etc etc). But it will literally say, you take wounds, or you COMPLETE the actions of the wound table. I don't know of any other situation where you take wounds without it saying...you "take wounds based on X" or rolling on the wound table. Stomp does hits, Impact hits do hits, Breath Weapons do hits, all of which have to roll to wound. Poison does wound. They literally say that. They don't say, "getting Stomped is super dangerous, you figure out what that means..."

KB never says it does a wound. If something doesn't say you take a wound, you don't take a wound. Or I'm going to start arguing you take automatic wounds simply because you're Ethereal, because, as you pointed out, Ethereal "makes use of the word" wound. Therefore, it has to be wounding...stuff. Obviously I'm being goofy, but you're simply not supplying any concrete rules. Saying a word appears regardless of context and meaning isn't a rule.

I'm not the queen of England. Hey, that must be I am the queen of England because that sentence mentioned me and queen of England. God save me!

I find it amusing that peasant listed a number of ways to slay a model with out wounding it.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Killing blow makes constant reference to wounds.

It does. Except it never says it actually does wound(s). And the # of times a word is used doesn't mean you can cobble together rules that don't exist.

It COULD have said it does all the wounds the model possesses without armor and regen saves. In which case Ethereal would block it. Yet it didn't say that. Nowhere once does it say it causes a wound.

In fact it completely bypasses the table that is essential to cause wounds. Unless something says, "unit takes X wounds" you have to roll to wound them. There are no other ways within the BRB and entire of game of WHFB that you can give wounds. They are two whole instances. You can reach them multiple ways (shooting, spells, special rules [stomp, poison, Instability], etc etc). But it will literally say, you take wounds, or you COMPLETE the actions of the wound table. I don't know of any other situation where you take wounds without it saying...you "take wounds based on X" or rolling on the wound table. Stomp does hits, Impact hits do hits, Breath Weapons do hits, all of which have to roll to wound. Poison does wound. They literally say that. They don't say, "getting Stomped is super dangerous, you figure out what that means..."

KB never says it does a wound. If something doesn't say you take a wound, you don't take a wound. Or I'm going to start arguing you take automatic wounds simply because you're Ethereal, because, as you pointed out, Ethereal "makes use of the word" wound. Therefore, it has to be wounding...stuff. Obviously I'm being goofy, but you're simply not supplying any concrete rules. Saying a word appears regardless of context and meaning isn't a rule.

I'm not the queen of England. Hey, that must be I am the queen of England because that sentence mentioned me and queen of England. God save me!

You claim my usage is incorrect yet there is the same basis for your argument.
You claim my view is incorrect because it never says you wound. Can you provide any other basis that it does not wound.
Killing blow never says it does NOT cause a wound because the model with killing blow will still cause a wound on a six against other targets.
How does it bypass the essential table to cause a wound?
You just stated 'Unless something says, "unit takes X wounds" you have to roll to wound them. There are no other ways within the BRB and entire of game of WHFB that you can give wounds.. "
Exactly. And how do you do this? By rolling to wound. You look at your strength vs opponents toughness and roll to wound. The same thing you do for someone with killing blow.
You roll your dice to wound based on S vs. T. If one on those comes up as a 5 you wound your opponent if one comes up as a 6 you wound your opponent. If they meet the criteria you can slay them regardless of the number of wounds if they fail their ward.
I get that in your argument if they meet this criteria they just die, and I believe that to be incorrect. It makes no rule sense.
Wy do you suddenly ignore that it was a successful 'to wound' roll other than for personal benefit? You are never told to ignore the six that you rolled to wound.
You rolled to wound..if you didn't have killing blow or if the target does not meet the criteria you would wound with your six but now you suddenly no longer wounded??. Nowhere does it state that you ignore the wound caused by your to wound roll.
Edit to add Again...Killing blow is triggered just like d3 or d6 wounds except it is All remaining wounds.
You do not roll a dice before rolling to wound to see if you ill strike a killing blow.
YOu had to roll your 'to wound' roll and get a six to get killing blow to function.
You are asked to roll to wound. And 'on a 'to wound roll of a six..'..
Every time in the game that you roll to wound...you roll to wound and if it is successful roll it wounds. That is the point.
You are never asked to roll on a separate chart. you are never asked to roll a separate dice..
You are not ignoring, not back tracking, not discounting, not changing
Every weapon has the same process you roll to wound and if that roll meets the criteria it wounds. The book doesn't say roll to wound..to wound, which is what you are saying is required in killing blow text. It says compare S vs. T on the chart to find the required roll. If you meet that roll you have successfully wounded



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirsanth wrote:
I find it amusing that peasant listed a number of ways to slay a model with out wounding it.

I'm glad it humors you.
When you are done laughing and clear the tears from your eyes continue reading.

The point is that NONE of those listed, reference wounds in their description. They are Instant kills that do not wound which is contrary to my position that killing blow does wound.
If you'd like, read my last post to Duke about all the reasons it Does cause wounds.
Why do you think it does not wound? Just because it doesn't say it wounds.?
That's a stretch.
My post to Duke lists all the reasons I believe it DOES. And it never says it doesn't wound either so if the fact that it never says it wounds is your basis it's easily countered by the opposite.

Can you provide any other basis that it does not wound.

It doesn't say it does.

It doesn't say you take a wound(s). It doesn't say you automatically lose. It doesn't say you kill the entire unit. It doesn't say you get to jump up and down on his models while slathering yourself with cocoa butter.

You don't do things the game doesn't say you do.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Can you provide any other basis that it does not wound.

It doesn't say it does.

It doesn't say you take a wound(s). It doesn't say you automatically lose. It doesn't say you kill the entire unit. It doesn't say you get to jump up and down on his models while slathering yourself with cocoa butter.

You don't do things the game doesn't say you do.

No it doesn't say you wound.
And it doesn't it say it does not wound. So we must look elsewhere for what happens.
Buti t is implied by following game rules.
What do you do every time you roll to wound?
What are you doing when you are asked to roll to wound?
Again, what happens when you roll a six to wound with killing blow against a Monstrous creature?
Where does it ask you to ignore the successful to wound roll of a six? Six always wounds unless told otherwise. There is no instruction to ignore the wound you rolled
As I have said, repeatedly, killing blow trigger on the wound just like d3 or d6, it just takes all wounds whether there is 1 or 100.

Ethereal lets you ignore the wound that the 6 would cause.

The fact that that 6 also slays the model regardless of remaining wounds is what confuses some folk.

It does not require the wound to succeed - it requires a 6.

editing to add:
Note that the ALSO slays is not in addition to or afterward.
It slays the model outright, regardless of wounds.
Thus the wounds do not matter and are not regarded.
The model is slain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not liking a rule does not make it wrong.
This one makes little sense, as I read it, and is probably written differently than intended, but that does not change the actual text no matter how much people want others to squint and cross their eyes when regarding the text.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peasant wrote:
The point is that NONE of those listed, reference wounds in their description.

Referencing something is a reference, not a rule.
If the idea was to follow another rule it would state as much.
Or a straw to be grasped instead of reason is more solid.

The fact - yes fact - that it tells you not to regard wounds should be read as a rule, not the random assertion that because wounds are mentioned they SHOULD be regarded.
The rules you reference tell you not to regard the thing you are saying the rules ask you to regard.

 kirsanth wrote:
Ethereal lets you ignore the wound that the 6 would cause.

The fact that that 6 also slays the model regardless of remaining wounds is what confuses some folk.

It does not require the wound to succeed - it requires a 6.

editing to add:
Note that the ALSO slays is not in addition to or afterward.
It slays the model outright, regardless of wounds.
Thus the wounds do not matter and are not regarded.
The model is slain.

Ethereal does ignore the wound, thus the killing blow.
If you didn't get the ward it could be considered an instant kill and potentially bust the whole discussion..but you do get the ward.
It never says you need a 6
It says when you roll a six to wound. There is no other way to put that.
It does require the wound to succeed.
You are rolling to wound.
Does a six when rolling to wound, wound? yes or no?
If you rolled the six to wound you can slay the model regardless of wounds if it meets criteria...after saves.
Again if it was instant kill with no ward we could possibly stop here..but we don't
You don't get armour saves. It says you don't.
If you make your ward you do not suffer a wound. Or any other damage.
Why are you rolling a ward save?
To prevent a wound. If you don't meet the criteria you take a wound. If you meet certain criteria the failed ward will cause killing blow.
Why a wound? Because you already wounded with the to wound roll of 6. You are never told to disregard the wound that you caused prior.
It does not say the wounds are not regarded.
It says slain regardless of the number of wounds. Those are 2 very different sentences.
Instant kills tell you the wounds are irrelevant.
You are attempting to disregard what has already happened which was a successful roll to wound.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not liking a rule does not make it wrong.
This one makes little sense, as I read it, and is probably written differently than intended, but that does not change the actual text no matter how much people want others to squint and cross their eyes when regarding the text.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peasant wrote:
The point is that NONE of those listed, reference wounds in their description.

Referencing something is a reference, not a rule.
If the idea was to follow another rule it would state as much.
Or a straw to be grasped instead of reason is more solid.

The fact - yes fact - that it tells you not to regard wounds should be read as a rule, not the random assertion that because wounds are mentioned they SHOULD be regarded.
The rules you reference tell you not to regard the thing you are saying the rules ask you to regard.

As I stated above you have already done the wound and you are slain regardless of the number of wounds. you cause as many as you need to, to reduce the model to zero.
It is following the rules as they go.
And again it says slain regardless of the number of wounds..the wounds are still relevant.

Okay Peasant, So using your logic then, that means Ethereal units are immune to Unstable because unstable causes wounds that are not magical. Which according to the rules does not work! and via the FAQ does not work that way as I said, it is an effect and effects can hurt / kill Ethereal.

Example:

1) A unit of Spirit hosts loses combat by 6, so they take 6 wounds. These 6 wounds are not cause by weapons or a spell, but by a special rule whose effect comes into play if you lose combat with a unstable unit, thus the wounds from this effect of a special ability would bypass Ethereal.

2) A unit of Hexwraiths gets attacked by a unit of Tomb Guard, The tomb guard score 12 hits, of those 12 rolls to wound 4 were 6s, in which case the killing blow special effect comes into play, after resolving saves and such the unit of Hexwraiths would take the 4 casualties from the Killing blows as those models are killed outright, aka instant kill.

3) the save or die spells have a a condition that needs to be met in order for them to work, dwellers below requires a unit to take str tests, on that fail they are instant killed. The spell it self doesn't just kill them outright, a condition must be met first.

Also btw the reason why it mentions wounds for Killing blow is for combat res!!!!!

Also you seem to ignore a certain part of the instant kill

pg. 44

"Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as causalities (after failing a Ld or T test, for example). Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise), but the number of wounds on the victims profile is completely irrelevant - just remove the model from play, and hope for better luck next time!"

It says for saves "unless specified otherwise" , which KB does specify, the part about wounds on profile being irrelevant also goes with KB, as KB just removes models, but where this section talks about instant kills as a whole, KB only works in CC, therefor you have to keep in mind the amount of wounds on the profile for Combat Resolution to determine a winner, unless you wipe the unit outright.

fattymac04 wrote:
Okay Peasant, So using your logic then, that means Ethereal units are immune to Unstable because unstable causes wounds that are not magical. Which according to the rules does not work! and via the FAQ does not work that way as I said, it is an effect and effects can hurt / kill Ethereal.

Example:

1) A unit of Spirit hosts loses combat by 6, so they take 6 wounds. These 6 wounds are not cause by weapons or a spell, but by a special rule whose effect comes into play if you lose combat with a unstable unit, thus the wounds from this effect of a special ability would bypass Ethereal.

2) A unit of Hexwraiths gets attacked by a unit of Tomb Guard, The tomb guard score 12 hits, of those 12 rolls to wound 4 were 6s, in which case the killing blow special effect comes into play, after resolving saves and such the unit of Hexwraiths would take the 4 casualties from the Killing blows as those models are killed outright, aka instant kill.

3) the save or die spells have a a condition that needs to be met in order for them to work, dwellers below requires a unit to take str tests, on that fail they are instant killed. The spell it self doesn't just kill them outright, a condition must be met first.

Also btw the reason why it mentions wounds for Killing blow is for combat res!!!!!

Also you seem to ignore a certain part of the instant kill

pg. 44

"Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as causalities (after failing a Ld or T test, for example). Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise), but the number of wounds on the victims profile is completely irrelevant - just remove the model from play, and hope for better luck next time!"

It says for saves "unless specified otherwise" , which KB does specify, the part about wounds on profile being irrelevant also goes with KB, as KB just removes models, but where this section talks about instant kills as a whole, KB only works in CC, therefor you have to keep in mind the amount of wounds on the profile for Combat Resolution to determine a winner, unless you wipe the unit outright.

No.
1. This is a special rule that applies to undead and has no bearing on the ethereal rule. Undead instability and how undead deal with loss of combat is not related. It even states that they can be beaten in combat because of combat resolution.

2. I am not very familiar with tomb guard or hexwraiths but If the tomb guards attacks are magical and the hexwraiths have no wards and meet killing blow criteria they are slain regardless of the number of wounds. plus any other strength vs. toughness rolls would wound as normal.

3. Yes the instant kills have a condition to be met. Failing a strength test etc. killing blow never says remove a model from play.

And how would killing blow affect combat res? With the wounds it causes.

As for the connection with instant kills they are similar but You are adding connection where it doesn't exist.
You are told to remove them from play with instant kills.
Killing blow never says the wounds are irrelevant nor to remove them from play.
Killing blow is never called an instant kill because it is not.
Killing blow does not just remove models.

Killing models is written as slays/slain when reaching zero wounds.

Im going to ask this once and im done dealing with this devil advocate back and forth, its not worth it

Peasant,

Using the BRB and FAQs, please list pages, qoutes whatever and show us where KB causes wounds, cause it doesn't, I've looked, unless you have a screwed up rule book, I don't see anywhere where KB cause's wounds. It slays models, but doesn't wound them.

Also I would suggest going here http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?showtopic=13609

That thread basically has all the points for and against, with nice details on why KB does work, even though it seems weird and why it won't be used at tourneys by most players.

*Edit

Here is one of the final arguments from the Khemri website, this is attributed to fafmut on that site, this is clear cut and has the BRB to back it up.

QUOTE ("BRB p.44")

"Instant Kills"
Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as casualties... Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise), but the number of wounds on the victim's profile is completely irrelevant - just remove the model from play....

QUOTE ("BRB p.68")

ETHEREAL
...Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects....

QUOTE ("BRB p.72")

KILLING BLOW
If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent - regardless of the number of wounds on the victim's profile. Armor saves and regeneration saves cannot be taken against a Killing Blow. A ward save can be attempted - if passed, the ward save prevents all damage from the Killing Blow....

QUOTE ("BRB p.51")

REMOVE CASUALTIES
With saving throws made or failed, you now need to remove the slain. Close combat casualties are removed in the same way as shooting ones....

I wanted to outline these in this specific order to reach the following logical conclusions:
The first rule states that some rules cause "instant kills" and do not inflict wounds. "(unless specified otherwise)" is bolded to reflect how Killing Blow is not an exception to this "instant kill" rule as KB offers a ward save (tying it to the bold in the KILLING BLOW rules quote above).
Ethereals are immune to non-magical wound generators. As Killing Blow is not causing wounds as explained in the first bullet point above, Ethereal does not get around the Killing Blow effect.
KILLING BLOW states that it "slays" an opponent. REMOVE CASUALTIES ties the phrase "slain" (past tense of "slay") to the phrase "close combat casualties". "Casualties" is also explicitly stated in the first rule above for "Instant Kills", thus reaffirming that KILLING BLOW falls under the aegis of the "Instant Kills" rule.

Killing Blow removes casualties without causing wounds if the target fails to make a ward save. Ergo, Ethereal does not ignore Killing Blow.

Ethereal does ignore the wound, thus the killing blow.

killing blow never says remove a model from play.

At this point I think you're either trolling, don't understand, or are just stomping your feet to get your way. Because you're clearly making things up, you're clearly using logic that a sentence later you refute: killing blow doesn't say remove from play--though it says slay--yet ethereal ignores "the wound" which is never stated is caused.

*Killing blow never says the wounds are irrelevant nor to remove them from play. --Then KB breaks the game because its combat resolution is unknown and victory points are unknown. Instant kills has enough latitude to cover KB and Purple Sun both.

*Killing blow is never called an instant kill because it is not. --It is. Because instant kills allow for any save specified. No kill is "instant." Purple sun you have to cast, get power level, not get dispelled, target, enemies take saves. That's not instant. The RESULT is instant because you don't take a wound. Just like you roll to hit on KB, to wound, and if it's a 6, you get purple sunned.

*Killing blow does not just remove models. -- This is nonsense. Pit of Shades doesn't remove models. It DOOMS and removes as casualties. Dwellers below doesn't remove models, it slays (sound familiar?). None of them are instant.

*Killing models is written as slays/slain when reaching zero wounds. --Again, not sure how you can't understand this, but 6 is not only 5+1. Dwellers says it slays. Dwellers does not wound. This is really basic logic. You're saying that Ethereal cannot be wounded. Well, models that aren't in play can't be wounded. So Ethereal means the unit isn't in play. That's basically what you're saying.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Ethereal does ignore the wound, thus the killing blow.

killing blow never says remove a model from play.

At this point I think you're either trolling, don't understand, or are just stomping your feet to get your way. Because you're clearly making things up, you're clearly using logic that a sentence later you refute: killing blow doesn't say remove from play--though it says slay--yet ethereal ignores "the wound" which is never stated is caused.

No I am not trolling. I may not have been as clear as I should have been in my attempts not to write an epic novel on why killing blow causes wounds and does not work on ethereal, but I digress.
I am addressing points that you are avoiding or refusing to admit. Lets try again. Unfortunately this will be a bit longer.
Starting with your last post.
The first trouble I see is in your desire to be literal in application but only where it benefits and my errors in language to try and keep things short which may be causing your confusion and my failure to help you understand.

1. pg 51 instructs to remove the slain the same way as shooting. pg 45 ..target suffers unsaved wounds and to save space we know when a model reaches zero wounds they are removed from play. That is how it is described. Obviously we remove models from play when they are reduced to zero wounds or something tells us to remove them. Nowhere in the text for 'killing blow are the words 'remove/d from play ever written.' Some spells and abilities have that actual text. 'remove from play' remove as a casualty. Return to the start of this and we know that when a model reaches zero wounds it does get removed.
Your paraphrasing at the end is missing essential parts and is changing context which hopefully will be cleared up as we continue.

*Killing blow never says the wounds are irrelevant nor to remove them from play. --Then KB breaks the game because its combat resolution is unknown and victory points are unknown. Instant kills has enough latitude to cover KB and Purple Sun both.

I'm not sure what you mean by your first sentence? Instant kills may have latitude to cover killing blow but there is nothing that connects killing blow to instant kills. Killing blow text does not state that it is an instant kill. Killing blow text does not state remove the model from play. We understand that we will remove a model from play at zero wounds but going down to zero wounds is not necessarily an instant kill. pg 44 describes them. no wounds, removed from play and characteristic tests are all key points. Again..you roll to wound..to wound and this is the part that people are trying to avoid.
What are you doing when you roll to wound whne playing this game?

*Killing blow is never called an instant kill because it is not. --It is. Because instant kills allow for any save specified. No kill is "instant." Purple sun you have to cast, get power level, not get dispelled, target, enemies take saves. That's not instant. The RESULT is instant because you don't take a wound. Just like you roll to hit on KB, to wound, and if it's a 6, you get purple sunned.

You are partially correct in some parts..Killing blow is not an instant kill you rolled to wound. Instant kills do allow specified saves. No kill is 'instant' in time, they do require process to get there. Here is where I find you to be struggling. Purple sun requires an initiative test. What are you doing with your initiative test? Testing against Initiative. Initiative is not wounds. You cant take a wound on Initiative they are 2 separate stats. Same applies to all other characteristic tests.
And what do all of these spells have in common? They tell you what characteristic to test against and then tell you what to do or what to apply or to remove as a casualty or remove from play.
The example of purple sun is useful (I will continue but we are drifting from the topic at hand) you test against initiative, but what happens when you fail? you don't know because it is initiative, you can't get 'initiatived' . so you are instructed to slay the model. You also have items that take initiative tests and instruct you to take a wound (just a single one), again how else do you know what to do when you fail or succeed?
When you roll to wound that is what you are doing? You cannot escape that portion.
Again I ask the question. Have you ever been asked to roll to wound to not wound? When are you asked to roll to do something and ignore what you have just done? (I will probably repeat this.)

*Killing blow does not just remove models. -- This is nonsense. Pit of Shades doesn't remove models. It DOOMS and removes as casualties. Dwellers below doesn't remove models, it slays (sound familiar?). None of them are instant.

Again partially correct. Partially for my incomplete typing. Pit of shades removes casualties. that is correct it tells you Initiative test, fail..then remove them as casualties. Again, text that is not part of killing blow. Dwellers does say slays. And slaying is reducing the models wounds to zero. Since Initiative is not wounds so you need to know what it is doing. You have effects that cause strength tests, you can't be 'strengthed' so you are told to wound, or remove as casualty or restrict movement. You need instruction on what to do with those tests. You do not need instruction on what to do when you are wounded because you are wounded. Again killing blow is a result of wounding just like d6 or d3 only it is all the wounds on a profile.

*Killing models is written as slays/slain when reaching zero wounds. --Again, not sure how you can't understand this, but 6 is not only 5+1. Dwellers says it slays. Dwellers does not wound. This is really basic logic. You're saying that Ethereal cannot be wounded. Well, models that aren't in play can't be wounded. So Ethereal means the unit isn't in play. That's basically what you're saying.

You are correct 6 is not only 5+1. But you are told to use 5+1 to get 6. You could possibly look at it his way..in the magic pahse you use 3x2=6, combat 5+1=6, shooting 3+3=6. The point is there are multiple ways to get where you are going. (too many to make math equations for all of them) But the point is you can't use 5+1=6 (for example process for killing blow) get the six and say okay It's actually 3+3=6. You don't back track steps, maybe you do on a rare occasion but those are specifically stated..(not sure how clear that is) Lets do it with some writing...
Dwellers does say it slays. It has to say something because you took a strength test and you have no idea what it will do. Will it cause a wound? Will it stop you from moving? Will it slay you? What slays? reducing to zero wounds.You only know because you are told.
What do you do when you roll to wound a model? You wound it. When you roll to wound you never need to be told again that you are wounding. Rolling to wound causes wounds and you may get an effect after the wound. Maybe you get -1 toughness, maybe you get, d3 wounds, maybe you get killing blow. Either way you are told what to do after causing the wound. Just as you are told what to after any other test you take.
I 'm not saying Ethereal can't be wounded. I'm saying killing blow does not work on ethereal creatures unless you have a magic weapon like say..the blade of blood.







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fattymac04 wrote:

I wanted to outline these in this specific order to reach the following logical conclusions:
The first rule states that some rules cause "instant kills" and do not inflict wounds. "(unless specified otherwise)" is bolded to reflect how Killing Blow is not an exception to this "instant kill" rule as KB offers a ward save (tying it to the bold in the KILLING BLOW rules quote above).
Ethereals are immune to non-magical wound generators. As Killing Blow is not causing wounds as explained in the first bullet point above, Ethereal does not get around the Killing Blow effect.
KILLING BLOW states that it "slays" an opponent. REMOVE CASUALTIES ties the phrase "slain" (past tense of "slay") to the phrase "close combat casualties". "Casualties" is also explicitly stated in the first rule above for "Instant Kills", thus reaffirming that KILLING BLOW falls under the aegis of the "Instant Kills" rule.

Killing Blow removes casualties without causing wounds if the target fails to make a ward save. Ergo, Ethereal does not ignore Killing Blow.

I'm going to try and keep this short because I wrote a long response to Duke covering most of this.
The thread you listed shows many things that have been said here but let me try to summarise..again. following your logical conclusions, refuting them and explaining my logic.
Instant kill does not apply to killing blow because you are going backwards.
Are you saying ..you slay and slaying is part of casualties which is part of instant kills so killing blow works on ethereal???
How do you determine killing blow doesn't wound when you must roll to wound to activate it?
Causing a wound to a basic troop slays him as well.
Killing blow comes before removing casualties because until you are slain (or told to remove the model as a casualty you are not removed. You must follow the game process. Hits wounds saves remove the slain. Instant kills is a form of casualty removal which comes at the end of the phase.


Pg 44 'Instant kills' and pg 72 Killing Blow.

Instant Kills..
..requires models to be removed as casualties (after failing a Ld or T test for example) Where this is the case...

1.KB (I hate abreviations but I'm getting lazy ) never states, remove as casualty, remove from play.
2.KB does not ask you to fail or even take characteristic tests.
3.Killing blow does not state it is an instant kill.

Therefore killing blow is not an instant kill.
Just because you are reducing the model to 0 wounds does not make it an instant kill.
Taking a characteristic test doesn't make it an instant kill.
Losing all your wounds does not make an instant kill.
We can start with the simplest solution that I have stated many times.
You are asked to roll to wound.
You roll to wound for 1 purpose, to wound..once you have wounded by a successful roll to wound you do not backtrack. When we do anything in this game we do not backtrack.
You must suffer a wound from the six and meet the criteria to be slain. If you are ethereal and the weapon isn't magic nothing happens. If you aren't infantry/cavalry you take a wound if you fail your save.
Killing blow is an effect that happens on a wound just like d3 or d6 except that it reduces a model to 0 regardless of the number of wounds on the profile.
There is no gaming process that asks you to not take the wound you just caused.
If you weren't wounding you'd be asked to roll a six, you'd be asked to take a characteristic test or some other rule.
The fact that KB doesn't state you wound has no bearing because you rolled to wound. That is the game process.
I

Ehh, I don't know. I think your looking to hard for a loop hole in the rules to say Killing Blow can wound Ethereal.

I can tell you most store managers, and tournament holders will say it can't.

 LordHamshire wrote:
Ehh, I don't know. I think your looking to hard for a loop hole in the rules to say Killing Blow can wound Ethereal.

Tell that to a giant.

Then talk to Tomb Guard.

Wounds are a lark. Mentioning them is a strawman, basically.

People* are looking for a rule that backs what some* think is common sense, but none exist.


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 LordHamshire wrote:
I can tell you most store managers, and tournament holders will say it can't.

And I can tell you that every single person in the world that you have not asked and has not posted otherwise disagrees with everything you stated.

Neither matters a whit.

Like I said pretty early, I don't think it's bad to have Ethereal block KB. I just think it's pretty clear it's not RAW. The language isn't there.

I agree, I do not think it makes "common sense" but the way the rules are worded it does work. Either Game store owners and tournament runners will allow it or not, it is up to them. What is needed is a FAQ to confirm that it works or doesn't, but at the rate GW makes those we probably wont see one for a few months.

Is the weapon magical? if yes it can affect the Ethereal if not then it cannot. Thats the way I see it.

 Goregut wrote:
Is the weapon magical? if yes it can affect the Ethereal if not then it cannot. Thats the way I see it.

Although logically everyone (well most people) see it this way, by the strictest of RAW this isn't what GW wrote in the rulebook.

 Goregut wrote:
Is the weapon magical? if yes it can affect the Ethereal if not then it cannot. Thats the way I see it.

The simplest rule would have been that Ethereals cannot be affected by non-magical sources.
Since that is not the case...
Ogre Slaughtermaster is equiped with Armor of Silvered Steel (2+ armor), Other Tricksters Shard (re-roll wards), Greedy Fist (+1 strength, 6+ ward, destroys magic weapons if ogre makes a save, and drains magic levels on a hit, talisman), and an extra hand weapon.
This gives the ogre WS4 and 5 attacks at Strength 5.
The slaughtermaster finds himself in combat with a Slaan who's ethereal. The Slaughtermaster cannot wound the slaan, but can hit him and take his wizard levels away.

Effects that trigger on a hit still take place, even if you cannot wound.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Goregut wrote:
Is the weapon magical? if yes it can affect the Ethereal if not then it cannot. Thats the way I see it.

The simplest rule would have been that Ethereals cannot be affected by non-magical sources.
Since that is not the case...
Ogre Slaughtermaster is equiped with Armor of Silvered Steel (2+ armor), Other Tricksters Shard (re-roll wards), Greedy Fist (+1 strength, 6+ ward, destroys magic weapons if ogre makes a save, and drains magic levels on a hit, talisman), and an extra hand weapon.
This gives the ogre WS4 and 5 attacks at Strength 5.
The slaughtermaster finds himself in combat with a Slaan who's ethereal. The Slaughtermaster cannot wound the slaan, but can hit him and take his wizard levels away.

Effects that trigger on a hit still take place, even if you cannot wound.

-Matt

But KB is triggered on a successful roll to wound. Hence the argument that if you cannot wound, KB cannot trigger.

I can't dunk a basketball. But I can put a basketball in my hand, run up to the basket, jump...and fall short. That will happen every single time I attempt it. Even if something is 100% impossible that doesn't mean you can't try. That's basic logic. A quadriplegic and myself both cannot dunk a basketball. Yet the quadriplegic cannot even try. That is the difference.

There's instances in the game where it says you can't try something. E.g., you can't try and charge something that you have no chance of reaching. You CAN'T declare that. If you want something to be impossible to try, make it impossible to try.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Oh, and to logic argument this:
model + (0 wounds) = slain
But you're assuming that slain can only have one formula. Such as:
5 +1 = 6
But
4 + 2 = 6
10 - 4 = 6
3 * 2 = 6
Six does not have one and only one formula possible. Slain is achieved however a rule says it is and is not limited by other implementations. 4+2 doesn't care about 10-4.

I'm a computer programmer for a living. And have been doing it for more than 15 or so years. I know a thing or two about logical constructs.

if(wounds == 0)
slay();

That is not reversible. Because you can call slay() under any situation you choose. It is merely the result of a condition. It is not equal to a condition. Wounds is a property. Slay is an action. The two can never be equal as they are not the same concept. Str10 does not equal wounding--even if it's very likely. And if something is wounded, you do not know it came from Str10.

You also conveniently failed to note that the BRB is only talking about combat resolution on p52. It is easy to tell because it's under combat resolution. If it was under the section before it, roll to wound, you might have a point. It is not, however. So the entire section on wounding, the whole area in the WHFB that is devoted to the concept of wounds and their allocation, makes no reference whatsoever to it.

Having a banner or being on elevation or having ranks also affects combat resolution. They are in the exact same section you are quoting. Yet they obviously do not cause wounds (and Ethereal does not block them).

DukeRustfield wrote:
I'm a computer programmer for a living. And have been doing it for more than 15 or so years. I know a thing or two about logical constructs.
if(wounds == 0)
slay();
That is not reversible. Because you can call slay() under any situation you choose. It is merely the result of a condition. It is not equal to a condition. Wounds is a property. Slay is an action. The two can never be equal as they are not the same concept. Str10 does not equal wounding--even if it's very likely. And if something is wounded, you do not know it came from Str10.

You may know something about programming but you still know nothing about logical constructs.
Control flow in programming (like in your sample) is just that, your code includes one logical TEST (are wounds equal zero?) hardly a "construct".
I happen to be a programmer as well so I know the difference between control flow statement and "Logical consequence".
So either you're bad programmer or a troll.
Just so you could understand I will explain (so you could become better programmer):
"If a equals b then b equals a" - that's logic I quoted.
Meaning "(If model's wounds are zero) equals to (model slain) IS THE SAME AS (If model slain) equals to (model's wounds are zero)".
"If a then b is not reversible" - that's your try to interpret above logic.
Meaning "(If model's wounds are zero) slay the model."
Those two are totally different things. See the difference?

You also conveniently failed to note that the BRB is only talking about combat resolution on p52. It is easy to tell because it's under combat resolution. If it was under the section before it, roll to wound, you might have a point. It is not, however. So the entire section on wounding, the whole area in the WHFB that is devoted to the concept of wounds and their allocation, makes no reference whatsoever to it.
Having a banner or being on elevation or having ranks also affects combat resolution. They are in the exact same section you are quoting. Yet they obviously do not cause wounds (and Ethereal does not block them).

Actually it does matter that it is under the combat resolution section, because if you slay a model, how do you count that towards combat resolution, it doesn't say under KB rule, but does so in the combat resolution section so those killed models are counted. Otherwise they wouldn't be counted because it doesn't say they are wounds in the KB section.

It would be like 10 dragon princes attacking a horde of tomb guard, the tomb guard take 8 unsaved wounds and the tomb guard cause 2 unsaved wounds and 5 KB's, if they didn't say that in the combat resolution the Tomb Guard would lose CC by 6 unsaved wounds, but since they specifically mentioned it there it means they lose CC by 1. That section and little phrase is just for the purpose of Combat Res, period, KB doesn't cause wounds except for the purpose of determining how much combat res they cause.

"If a equals b then b equals a" - that's logic I quoted.

And that's what you don't understand. They aren't equal variables and aren't variables with one and only one condition.

If you get a flat tire your car will stop. But if your car is stopped you don't necessarily have a flat tire. You could be out of gas. You could have hit the brakes. You cannot reverse stopped and assume there is one and only one cause. Again, this is a really basic concept.

Why would I mention that this is only part of book that is talking about combat resolution? Why would that matter?

I have no idea why you mentioned it, because it is irrelevant. But it's merely in regards to determining combat resolution. It even says SCORED in the only sentence that mentions wounds. The section on wounds is in the...section on wounds. The section is actually pretty darn in important. There are rules for Flying that only apply if you can Fly. Even though it's movement. There are rules for normal attacking and rules for war machines attacking, guess which ones you use for war machines. You can't just pluck rules out of any section and apply it elsewhere. Shooting attacks don't work like close combat attacks.

I also just remembered that 0 characteristic S or T = slain. Per the BRB. So clearly it's not just a 1:1 on slain. Like I said, there are multiple (many) ways to reach that outcome.

So you can't say that
0 wounds = slain
and
slain = 0 wounds

Because
0T = slain
0W = slain
0S = slain

Among many other things.

DukeRustfield wrote:

I also just remembered that 0 characteristic S or T = slain. Per the BRB. So clearly it's not just a 1:1 on slain. Like I said, there are multiple (many) ways to reach that outcome.

That's true... I did not remember that S/T = 0 means slain as well. I was quite sure that "slain" is ONLY when W = 0 or killed by KB. That means that you are right - my logic was flawed. My bad .

I have no idea why you mentioned it, because it is irrelevant. But it's merely in regards to determining combat resolution. It even says SCORED in the only sentence that mentions wounds. The section on wounds is in the...section on wounds. The section is actually pretty darn in important. There are rules for Flying that only apply if you can Fly. Even though it's movement. There are rules for normal attacking and rules for war machines attacking, guess which ones you use for war machines. You can't just pluck rules out of any section and apply it elsewhere. Shooting attacks don't work like close combat attacks.

While writing reply to that argument I have realized that you you are WRONG but you MIGHT be RIGHT.
So for me it does not make sense to argue anymore as the word "scored" might indicate indeed that this rule on page 52 is ONLY for the purposes of Combat Resolution.
It might not though

So MC, MI etc in combat with something with KB ignores all wound roles of a 6 then?

Honestly, this thread makes me want to weep.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


But KB is triggered on a successful roll to wound. Hence the argument that if you cannot wound, KB cannot trigger.

That's incorrect, Killing Blow is triggered on a "To Wound" roll of a '6', regardless of whether it's successful or not.

Iranna.