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Recently acquired
60 catachan guardsmen
3 leman russ
2 command squads
1 vendetta

Couple of question:
1.) Can I field something relatively competitive with this
2.) What should my next steps be with this as a core? I want to keep it horde and my guardsman have a bunch if melta

a couple chimera for sure. at least for the command squads

Do you have special or heavy weapons? If you've just got 60 dudes with lasguns, the first thing you need is some guardsmen with real weapons.

Once you've got that, then yeah, you can either do a foot list backed up by tanks (or, really, a tank list with some infantry platoons in there), or you can have those guardsmen become veterans in chimeras. You can run a fine list either way.

Keeping the horde mentality in mind you'll want to get a couple separate platoons going. Stick as many heavy weapons and special weapons as you can in them, back them up with some standard LRBTs (or other variants as ymmv).

Vendettas are still considered to be some of the best fliers in the game for their points. I'd get two more and use them to deliver elites (storm troopers) or use them as purely anti-MC/armor.

Woops forgot to mention I have 10 plasma involved on 10 guardsman. That should be ample considering a squad of 10 may only have 1 plasma gun.

My immediate plan on a list will be something like :

60 guardsman
3 LRBT with plasma cannon sponsons
2 vendetta
2 Manticores


Is this a good start?

I personally think you should run those plasmas as meltas, since they'd be a little more reliable. Also, you can make one or two of those squads vets for 3 special weapons in one squad, and throw them in the Vendetta(s). Besides that, I might suggest lascannons, as that is my preference for AT, but otherwise it is a good start to a semi-competitive army.

Well, I have vendettas and LRBT for heavy armor. I'm bringing the plasma for the range and ability to rapid fire and deal with termies, and mcs.

The real power of a guard list is in Blob squads with heavy weapons and special weapons and maximum heavy weapon teams. In my opinion, and dont forget the commisars in each blob squad to make them stubborn.


Multitasking a Russ = fair
Better off choosing a task for each Russ and then take weapons to suit sponsons should be thought about very carefully as may of the best Russ list will not even have sponsons. They make you tanks look cooler but really don't add much for the cost.

Vendettas = awesome
Manticores = good


suggestions
Aegis Defence line with either quad or icarus

If you have a LRBT do not throw upgrades on it, especially plasma sponsons. In the FAQ Leman russes became heavy which means they can only move up to 6inches and they can fire all weapons. But if they fire an ordnance weapon all others have to snap fire. So the battle cannon and demolisher cannon if fired will make everything else snap fire. Its a waste of points to make something bs1, also template and blast weapons like plasma sponsons(small blasts) wont be able to fire at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So if anything try to get other variants like the Vanquisher, punisher or exterminator and throw some sponsons on those as it will improve the killing power of the tank.

The lrbt can fire blast with ordinance weapons. It has a special rule in the codex

yes, bt that was FAQ'd to change it to a heavy vehicle, so no it can't fire blasts as well as ordinance, sorry

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
The lrbt can fire blast with ordinance weapons. It has a special rule in the codex

Like I said go on Games workshops site and read the FAQ. It doesnt have that rule anymore, lumbering behemoth is GONE. It has been replaced with heavy. So no blast weapons cannot be fired with ordnance.

As others have pointed out, the battle cannon cannot fire without making everything else snap fire. So I would suggest that you swap the turret for something else. The autocannon, vanquisher battle cannon, plasma cannon or even eradicator cannon have their uses. If you use those with some sponsons the tank becomes pretty beastly. The low BS is a concern, but you're laying down enough fire power that something will stick.

Getting some chimeras for some veterans is also a good idea. Then you can max out the amount of special weapons in your list and have a lot of counter punch ability against armies that try to get close.

I would not recommend putting vets in the vendettas. When that bird goes down, you're just increasing the amount of points you lose to the explosion. I would still recommend troops for the vendetta to contest objectives if they live to the end of the game. Just put 3-4x flamer platoon command squads in there.

A great tank to try out it the vanquisher with lascannon on the hull and plasma cannon sponsons. All s7+ weapons and all ap2. Its vanquisher cannon and lascannon allow it to damage heavy armor at a distance and the sponsons allow it to damage light to medium armor as well at more of mid range. When foot troops come up the plasma sponsons can put multiple wounds on the unit. As mentioned its all ap2 so you can damage everything. A nice addition to this tank is the bolter boat punisher a..s the large amount of wounds it can put on infantry is insane and really can help bring down TEQ or monstrous creatures with weight of fire.

Hope this helps

The leman russ exterminator is a little pricey but just seems awesome

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
The leman russ exterminator is a little pricey but just seems awesome

The exterminator is the same points as the LRBT, are you talking about the executioner?

There are 3 Russes that start with e's, unfortunately.

Exterminator-- TL auto cannon
Eradicator-- Nova cannon that ignores cover
Executioner-- 3 shot plasma cannon that won't Get Hot

 tankboy145 wrote:
A great tank to try out it the vanquisher with lascannon on the hull and plasma cannon sponsons. All s7+ weapons and all ap2. Its vanquisher cannon and lascannon allow it to damage heavy armor at a distance and the sponsons allow it to damage light to medium armor as well at more of mid range. When foot troops come up the plasma sponsons can put multiple wounds on the unit. As mentioned its all ap2 so you can damage everything. A nice addition to this tank is the bolter boat punisher a..s the large amount of wounds it can put on infantry is insane and really can help bring down TEQ or monstrous creatures with weight of fire.

Hope this helps

The Vanquisher has become the new LRBT, in that it's a general workhorse. In the case of your current list, I'm not sure the sponsons will be an effective use of points, as you already have x10 plasma. I'd use those points to grab the Chimera as mentioned earlier to make your plasma more mobile. It'll also add some more survivability to those squishy little buggers.

If you're not running the plasma sponsons, I'm having a difficult time seeing how the vanquisher is any good... Without the sponsons aren't you better withone of the ordnance weapons

Yes, which is why you should always take sponsons on a vanquisher.

And if you don't want plasma cannons, then multimeltas also do fine. Lascannon/multimelta vanquishers really, REALLY hate vehicles. I've taken down fliers with tanks in this configuration before. After all, you've got a 2/3ds chance of hitting with one of your weapons, and any of them can easily blast a flier out of the sky.

The only reason I like plasma a bit more is because the range allows them to fire everything into your opponents' deployment zone turn 1. Worse against fliers, but better against monstrous creatures, and we know which way the meta is swinging on that one right now.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
If you're not running the plasma sponsons, I'm having a difficult time seeing how the vanquisher is any good... Without the sponsons aren't you better withone of the ordnance weapons

I see the vanquisher as a 72" melta weapon. The reason I suggested dropping the plasma sponsons was because of the sheer volume of plasma you already have. The sponsons make the vanquisher more versatile, but if you can better use the points elsewhere then that versatility is wasted since the vanquisher must concentrate on either vehicles or TEQ every turn, but cannot fire at both.

I agree, If you really have to have sponsons on it either cheap out with bolters or keep it a tank hunter with Multimeltas.

In hindsight I wish I never put sponsons on most of my tanks. Now I need more tanks or rip them off....I think I'll buy new ones when money is avaliable....never have kids people they soak up your money and impair your plastic crack addiction.

eclipseoto wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
If you're not running the plasma sponsons, I'm having a difficult time seeing how the vanquisher is any good... Without the sponsons aren't you better withone of the ordnance weapons

I see the vanquisher as a 72" melta weapon. The reason I suggested dropping the plasma sponsons was because of the sheer volume of plasma you already have. The sponsons make the vanquisher more versatile, but if you can better use the points elsewhere then that versatility is wasted since the vanquisher must concentrate on either vehicles or TEQ every turn, but cannot fire at both.

Just Teq and vehicles? I guess all that s7+ and ap2 is ineffective against monstrous creatures then right? or even meq? If your opponent doesnt space out properly those blasts will hit 2-4 guys if it doesnt scatter poorly and if hes spaced out properly that either means his flamer and special weapons will have a little harder time getting close up/if he assaults a good amount of his guys wont get into combat/with all the ap 2 it forces your opponent to hug terrain or get blasted away by ap2 which also means it will slow him down.

The sponsons alow you to harm more units more effectively. You add heavy bolters all you do is put 2-3 extra wounds on infantry with geq only on getting a save. with the plasma sponsons you are making your opponent think if he wants to drop termies close, or if you bubble rap correctly an expensive sternguard squad will get blasted away because the tank has a good amount of fire power to harm the squad. Heavy bolters can hurt av10 and glance 11 but the sponsons can do more damage do to the s7 and ap to help kill the enemy armor.

Yes if hes running vets he should have a chimera but based on his list he got 10 plasma guns thats a CCS with 4 plasma guns and 2 vet squads, any other squads could be used as melta or flamers. As the op doesnt have any chimeras its pointless to add 1 or 2 as all the mid strength weapons will be focused on those 2 and all you are doing is killing off your own guys inside when it blows up. If he sticks with really small games 1 or 2 wont hurt him. But otherwise if he runs platoons and adds plasma to those squads the I find it very unreliable. I used to run plasma in platoons but as it usually missed and the guys killed themselves most of the time it was a waste of 15pts I can understand melta but plasma is much better suited for vets who will hit more often.

 tankboy145 wrote:

Just Teq and vehicles? I guess all that s7+ and ap2 is ineffective against monstrous creatures then right? or even meq?

Sorry if you misunderstood, I was not suggesting this. Merely that plasma tends to be focused on AP2 models, and the vanquisher cannon tends to be focused on killing vehicles. You can also fire a lascannon and have a high chance to kill a guardsman, but it doesn't mean that's it's purpose.

 tankboy145 wrote:

If your opponent doesnt space out properly those blasts will hit 2-4 guys if it doesnt scatter poorly and if hes spaced out properly that either means his flamer and special weapons will have a little harder time getting close up/if he assaults a good amount of his guys wont get into combat/with all the ap 2 it forces your opponent to hug terrain or get blasted away by ap2 which also means it will slow him down.

Lots of ifs here.

 tankboy145 wrote:

The sponsons alow you to harm more units more effectively. You add heavy bolters all you do is put 2-3 extra wounds on infantry with geq only on getting a save. with the plasma sponsons you are making your opponent think if he wants to drop termies close, or if you bubble rap correctly an expensive sternguard squad will get blasted away because the tank has a good amount of fire power to harm the squad. Heavy bolters can hurt av10 and glance 11 but the sponsons can do more damage do to the s7 and ap to help kill the enemy armor.

The point I'm trying to make about the sponsons isn't that they don't make a unit more effective, it's that for the same price you could have more plasma elsewhere that isn't necessarily locked into shooting at the same target as the big gun.

 tankboy145 wrote:

Yes if hes running vets he should have a chimera but based on his list he got 10 plasma guns thats a CCS with 4 plasma guns and 2 vet squads, any other squads could be used as melta or flamers. As the op doesnt have any chimeras its pointless to add 1 or 2 as all the mid strength weapons will be focused on those 2 and all you are doing is killing off your own guys inside when it blows up. If he sticks with really small games 1 or 2 wont hurt him. But otherwise if he runs platoons and adds plasma to those squads the I find it very unreliable. I used to run plasma in platoons but as it usually missed and the guys killed themselves most of the time it was a waste of 15pts I can understand melta but plasma is much better suited for vets who will hit more often.

As with most guard tanks, position is key. If he's charging down the center with a chimera, it kind of deserves to be squashed. It also, however, is a transport that can move 12" at a time to get into range for rapid fire loveliness as fast as possible. The fact that the contents will hit on threes and kill most things on twos is an added bonus. In regards to the units killing themselves from gets hot, wouldn't you rather have a 22 point vet die to gets hot than a 200 point vanquisher lose it's last hull point?

Plasma sponsons are great if you only take a couple of russes and have a limited capability to take on MCs and TEQs, but with such a plasma heavy army already, it might make sense to save the points and use them elsewhere, perhaps towards a dedicated MEQ killer such as a basilisk or colossus.

So basically whats being said to the op is that he needs to ditch the russes he has and buy chimeras just to transports the vets and then hes gotta buy basilisks to replace the russes.

The idea of the vanq kitted out with plasma is so that it doesn't have such a narrow roll. You have the vanq cannon and a lascannon and you basically are dedicated anti tank with maybe killing 1 infantry model a turn. Where adding the plasma allows it to hunt armor the same before but now it adds more fire power to light armor and adds more to killing meq,monstrous creatures, teq and put more wounds on geq if you truly have no other target. But the roll of the tank is to go for the biggest targets and focus on them until they are dead.

You should try a Catachan fluff army.

Get Colonel Stracken, Marbo and Sgt Harker

 tankboy145 wrote:
So basically whats being said to the op is that he needs to ditch the russes he has and buy chimeras just to transports the vets and then hes gotta buy basilisks to replace the russes.

No one is saying this. Just run the russes without sponsons, using those gained points somewhere else. A next step might be to buy chimeras or basilisks as this is the second part to his question. His entire army is still useable.

 tankboy145 wrote:

But the roll of the tank is to go for the biggest targets and focus on them until they are dead.

Agreed. Speaking strictly math, a single vanquisher has a ~10% chance to kill an AV 14 vehicle on any given turn, ~12% with a lascannon. My thought then is that a vanquisher against most armies will have plenty of armor to shoot at without having to worry about versatility.

eclipseoto wrote:The point I'm trying to make about the sponsons isn't that they don't make a unit more effective, it's that for the same price you could have more plasma elsewhere that isn't necessarily locked into shooting at the same target as the big gun.

What? Sponson weapons for a russ are one of the cheapest ways to get the most effectiveness of practically any weapon upgrade in the entire codex.

For only 10 more points than a pair of plasma guns, you get plasma guns that fire out to 36" (which is a big deal), and are small blast (which is usually useless, but isn't always), and, much more importantly, come on an AV14 chassis, which means they won't instantly disintegrate when your opponent looks at them funny. And they're a great way to curb the hideous carrier costs of a russ.

Sponsons give the tank better efficiency of firepower, give the tank offensive plasma (rather than defensive), up it's turn-one firepower, and it comes on a very durable platform.

Sponsons make a tank much more effective, and do it at a bargain.

You miss the point. For most games, the vanquisher will have plenty of armor to shoot at. This also locks in its sponsons to shooting at those targets. These sponsons could be placed somewhere else, perhaps on a tank that will likely be targeting TEQ's more frequently, or perhaps sprinkled throughout vet squads, ccs's and the like.

eclipseoto wrote:
You miss the point. For most games, the vanquisher will have plenty of armor to shoot at. This also locks in its sponsons to shooting at those targets. These sponsons could be placed somewhere else, perhaps on a tank that will likely be targeting TEQ's more frequently, or perhaps sprinkled throughout vet squads, ccs's and the like.

If your ccs's or vet squads havent maxed out their special weapons or arent set up then you might be building your list wrong. Generally I thought with guard you built up your hq's and troops and whatever you were lacking is what your heavy support was built around.

Seeing as the op doesnt have chimeras to get his plasma vets around then his trroops are going to die lie crazy so it only seems reasonable to take a heavy hitting tank thats a bigger threat so the scoring troops have a better chance of living.