jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

*For the people dismissing Russ as a 'bottom tier Primarch", it's worth considering that Russ may have killed at least one other Primarch himself. Not a particularly weak feat.

It's also worth considering that even if that is the case, it's entirely possible the primarch he took out was the one that manifested the Emperor's awesome power to give really good back rubs. We just don't know.

Sarcasm aside, I don't know why people have such a hard time accepting Angron being able to whip his brothers into a paste. He is largely incompetent in every other regard. He's not tactically astounding, he doesn't have any fluffy qualities (logistics, inspiration, being a perpetual...), and he certainly can't turn invisible or render himself the size of a titan.

Copied from DarthMarko's sig wrote:
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."

Da Butcha wrote:
Trying to focus on the OP's question (and not on whether I think Russ is a 'crap primarch'):

I think Aaron portrayed Russ very fairly. A lot of people, even other primarchs, look at Russ with a bit of disdain, seeing an uncultured, uncouth, uneducated barbarian. Russ, to some extent, encourages that perception, for various reasons.

However, it's never been the case that Russ is actually stupid or foolish. Sure, he's been duped and misled, but he's not a fool.

I don't think there's any way that you can avoid arguing that Russ, regardless of how he compares mentally to Dorn, or Magnus, or whoever, isn't a more canny, more subtle thinker than Angron. He's more beloved by his Legion, and he's done a better job conserving their lives, rather than expending them ruthlessly at every turn. He's not a brain-damaged monster, and he hasn't turned his sons into brain-damaged killers.

I think it would be unfair to Angron if he wasn't physically and personally martially superior to Russ, in an authorial sense. Russ gets lots of cool stuff. Angron gets the honor of being the original 'Angry Marine', and that's about it.

Within the fluff, though, that's partly Angron's own fault. He doesn't take his own personal tragedies (and they are substantial) and use them to help his Legion. He takes the Legion and tears it apart into his own image. He destroys his own psykers. He lobotomizes his own sons. He takes a Legion of disciplined warriors and breaks them down into murderers.

Russ is trying to help him. Russ is trying to help Angron see the bigger picture. "Sure, you might be able to beat me, personally, but if that fight over-extends you, and plays you right into the enemy's hands, have you really won anything?" It's crucial to remember who Russ is at this point. He's the Emperor's executioner, for all intents and purposes. He (and presumably his Legion) have put down one or two Primarchs (and their legions, perhaps* at this point (my memory is unclear if Russ and the Legion wiped both of them). He's not just some concerned brother Primarch. He's the guy they will send to kill Angron if they decide to put him down.

He doesn't want that to happen. He says that himself, to Angron.

But he has just walked Angron through exactly how it could happen. Exactly how Angron's own flaws and weaknesses could make it happen. All Russ would have to do is present himself as a challenger, and Angron would fight his way right into an execution squad. He just did, in fact, but Russ lets him go.

I thought it was a very sympathetic portrayal of a Primarch, and a man, who doesn't necessarily like what he has to do, but knows what he has to do, and has the moral compass to do it. It might not be the best portrayal of Russ if you just want him to be the biggest, baddest Viking EVAR (WHOOOOOOO!), but it has more depth and humanity. Just like the Norse were portrayed as wild-eyed reavers by their victims, but actually had a sophisticated culture and lots of amazing traits (and were, to be fair, still pretty scary warriors), Russ is more than just the blustery berserker, too.


*For the people dismissing Russ as a 'bottom tier Primarch", it's worth considering that Russ may have killed at least one other Primarch himself. Not a particularly weak feat.

 Omegus wrote:
Uh, that quote supports that Angron DID in fact defeat Russ, but it didn't matter since the overall battle would have been won by the Wolves. And it of course, doesn't address how a few puny squads of Marines could threaten a Primarch in the first place, but we'll let that one slide I guess.

tgjensen wrote:
That makes no sense. If Russ was capable of defeating Angron, he could have simply overcome him, thrown him to the ground like it happened to Russ himself and let his marines close in. Then monologue about how, even in the face of his death, none of the World Eaters care to protect their general and most vital asset. Exactly the same outcome, except now Angron can't get confused about who was actually the bestest and so the lesson would have had a better chance of hitting home.

Angron legimitaly beat Russ fair and square.