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So I've been reading the rules and as far as I can tell there is no prohibition against using beam or nova powers when a psyker is restricted to firing snapshots for a turn.

The snap shots rule mentions that not all weapons can be fired as snapshots and points out blast and template types as examples. Those two types attack specifically mention that they cannot be used for snap shots (though the template weapons have the Wall of Death special rule for overwatch). The prohibition against snapshots do not appear for beam or nova attacks as described in the psyker section.

I seem to remember something that says "if you aren't rolling to hit, you can't fire snap shots," but now I can't find where and my skimming though hasn't turned it up.

Can anyone point me to a definitive no on this? Otherwise, I'm thinking that it should be allowed, right? (which would make diving a FMC psyker a pretty good deal)

There is a question about things that auto-hit and Snap Shots in the faq.

Aha! so based on those entries in the FAQ it seems to explicitly confirm my initial interpretation, and I was just imaging that general clause about requiring a roll.

Perhaps there needs to be some clarification because the rules and the FAQ seem to contradict.

There is even (apparently what seems like anyway) a contradiction within the FAQ. It states that a weapon that hits automatically can still be fired as a snap shot.

Further down there is another question in regards to witchfire attacks being fired as snap shots so long as the psyker has available warp charges and the power requires a roll to-hit.

We've always played it in our group, that if a psyker is required to use snap shots, he cannot use any witchfire powers that do not require a roll to hit (Psychic Shriek, Doombolt, etc.) because the snap shot rule states in order to fire a snap shot, you are required to roll to hit the target.

Note however, that there is still a restriction against FMCs and Flyers.

robzidious wrote:
Perhaps there needs to be some clarification because the rules and the FAQ seem to contradict.

There is even (apparently what seems like anyway) a contradiction within the FAQ. It states that a weapon that hits automatically can still be fired as a snap shot.

Further down there is another question in regards to witchfire attacks being fired as snap shots so long as the psyker has available warp charges and the power requires a roll to-hit.

We've always played it in our group, that if a psyker is required to use snap shots, he cannot use any witchfire powers that do not require a roll to hit (Psychic Shriek, Doombolt, etc.) because the snap shot rule states in order to fire a snap shot, you are required to roll to hit the target.

I feel compelled to point out that Psychic Shriek, as a Witchfire power, requires a roll to hit.

 somerandomidiot wrote:

robzidious wrote:
Perhaps there needs to be some clarification because the rules and the FAQ seem to contradict.

There is even (apparently what seems like anyway) a contradiction within the FAQ. It states that a weapon that hits automatically can still be fired as a snap shot.

Further down there is another question in regards to witchfire attacks being fired as snap shots so long as the psyker has available warp charges and the power requires a roll to-hit.

We've always played it in our group, that if a psyker is required to use snap shots, he cannot use any witchfire powers that do not require a roll to hit (Psychic Shriek, Doombolt, etc.) because the snap shot rule states in order to fire a snap shot, you are required to roll to hit the target.

I feel compelled to point out that Psychic Shriek, as a Witchfire power, requires a roll to hit.

True enough. Perhaps shriek wasn't the best example, but basically I am referring to psychic powers that require a roll to hit.

Think of Psychic Powers or other shooting attacks that have you draw a line (JaWWs) and auto hit everything under that line as a template weapon...the template being a line of a specific distance.

dkellyj wrote:
Think of Psychic Powers or other shooting attacks that have you draw a line (JaWWs) and auto hit everything under that line as a template weapon...the template being a line of a specific distance.

Which, again, template weapons cannot be used when a unit can only fire snap shots (except in the case of overwatch which psykers cannot use psychic shooting attacks in overwatch.)

dkellyj wrote:
Think of Psychic Powers or other shooting attacks that have you draw a line (JaWWs) and auto hit everything under that line as a template weapon...the template being a line of a specific distance.

Template weapons and the Line powers like JOTWW are two completely different things...

So, in general, most people here agree that a nova or beam psychic power can be utilized if the unit shooting can only fire snap shots?

robzidious wrote:So, in general, most people here agree that a nova or beam psychic power can be utilized if the unit shooting can only fire snap shots?

Erm - no, I think you've misinterpreted. See below for full explanation.

robzidious wrote:We've always played it in our group, that if a psyker is required to use snap shots, he cannot use any witchfire powers that do not require a roll to hit (Psychic Shriek, Doombolt, etc.) because the snap shot rule states in order to fire a snap shot, you are required to roll to hit the target.

This is the correct way of doing things, but it looks like the "why" needs clarifying. Here are the FAQs in question:

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically
when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

These tell us two things. Attacks that "hit automatically" can Snap Shot, and attacks that don't roll To Hit can't hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping FMCs. There's an implied extra point in there - that the latter statement is true because those types of attacks don't roll To Hit. Things that hit automatically still officially require the To Hit roll, but that roll is then automatically passed.

So it boils down to one of the following possibilities:
1) Does your power roll To Hit? - this can Snap Shot, but at BS1 as usual.
2) Does your power hit automatically? - this necessitates a to hit roll, so can Snap Shot, and still manages to hit automatically per the first FAQ.
3) Does your power not roll To Hit at all? - this you cannot Snap Shot in any way.

I disagree with your interpretation of this:
Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically
when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

This is in no way permission to snap shot weapons that hit automatically. It's a clarfication that IF you have permission to snap shot a weapon that hits automatically, it still will. For example Flamers during Overwatch. The rulebook is very clear (Page 13, Snap Shots, last sentence) that shooting attacks that don't use BS cannot be fired as Snap shots, and hitting automatically doesn't use BS.

So your part 2) should be "Cannot be fired as a Snap Shot unless a special rule allows it. If fired as a Snap Shot still hits automatically."

Chrysis wrote:
I disagree with your interpretation of this:
Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically
when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

This is in no way permission to snap shot weapons that hit automatically. It's a clarfication that IF you have permission to snap shot a weapon that hits automatically, it still will. For example Flamers during Overwatch. The rulebook is very clear (Page 13, Snap Shots, last sentence) that shooting attacks that don't use BS cannot be fired as Snap shots, and hitting automatically doesn't use BS.

So your part 2) should be "Cannot be fired as a Snap Shot unless a special rule allows it. If fired as a Snap Shot still hits automatically."

1. The BRB gives you across the board permission to make snapshots. Permission is then denied to some weapons/attacks. What you actually need to find is denial of that blanket permission for the attack.

2. Every ranged attack requires a BS skill greater than 0. It is always used in a ranged attacks even if a to-hit roll is not required. Genestealer Broodlords cannot use witchfires for exactly this reason.

 Abandon wrote:

Chrysis wrote:
I disagree with your interpretation of this:
Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically
when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

This is in no way permission to snap shot weapons that hit automatically. It's a clarfication that IF you have permission to snap shot a weapon that hits automatically, it still will. For example Flamers during Overwatch. The rulebook is very clear (Page 13, Snap Shots, last sentence) that shooting attacks that don't use BS cannot be fired as Snap shots, and hitting automatically doesn't use BS.

So your part 2) should be "Cannot be fired as a Snap Shot unless a special rule allows it. If fired as a Snap Shot still hits automatically."

1. The BRB gives you across the board permission to make snapshots. Permission is then denied to some weapons/attacks. What you actually need to find is denial of that blanket permission for the attack.

2. Every ranged attack requires a BS skill greater than 0. It is always used in a ranged attacks even if a to-hit roll is not required. Genestealer Broodlords cannot use witchfires for exactly this reason.

So you're saying that all Shooting Attacks use BS because they all require a BS > 0 to make? That interpretation doesn't fit with the example they give of a shooting attack that doesn't use BS, namely the Monolith Portal of Exile. A model requires a BS > 0 to make a Shooting Attack, but that doesn't mean that the Shooting Attack uses a BS. Shooting Attacks that don't use BS are prohibited from firing Snap Shots, so what needs to be proven is that a Shooting Attack that automatically hits either uses BS or has other permission to fire Snap Shots. The FAQ does not provide that permission, but implies the existence of cases where that permission exists.

I do not own a Necron Codex so the reference means little to me. Care to quote the relevant portion?

 Abandon wrote:
I do not own a Necron Codex so the reference means little to me. Care to quote the relevant portion?

"The Portal of Exile is treated as a Shooting Attack. When used, all enemy models (not units) within d6" of the monolith's portal ..." if they have LoS must pass a Strength Test or die.

It then gives the following profile for the Shooting Attack
d6" X - Heavy 1, Special

So a Shooting Attack which in no way involves the Monolith rolling anything. The Monolith's BS is never used, which is reinforced by the Snap Shot rules specifically mentioning it as an example of a Shooting Attack that doesn't use BS. But if the Monolith had a BS of 0, it would be unable to use the portal per the Broodlord rulings about BS0 models making Shooting Attacks.

So either you would be using the BS of the Monolith to allow you to fire which would allow you to Snap Shot counter to the example, or by "does not use a Ballistic Skill" the Snap Shot rules are not referring to the baseline ability to fire conferred by having a non-0 BS and thus Shooting Attacks that automatically hit do not use BS and thus can't be fired as Snap Shots.

Chrysis wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
I do not own a Necron Codex so the reference means little to me. Care to quote the relevant portion?

"The Portal of Exile is treated as a Shooting Attack. When used, all enemy models (not units) within d6" of the monolith's portal ..." if they have LoS must pass a Strength Test or die.

It then gives the following profile for the Shooting Attack
d6" X - Heavy 1, Special

So a Shooting Attack which in no way involves the Monolith rolling anything. The Monolith's BS is never used, which is reinforced by the Snap Shot rules specifically mentioning it as an example of a Shooting Attack that doesn't use BS. But if the Monolith had a BS of 0, it would be unable to use the portal per the Broodlord rulings about BS0 models making Shooting Attacks.

So either you would be using the BS of the Monolith to allow you to fire which would allow you to Snap Shot counter to the example, or by "does not use a Ballistic Skill" the Snap Shot rules are not referring to the baseline ability to fire conferred by having a non-0 BS and thus Shooting Attacks that automatically hit do not use BS and thus can't be fired as Snap Shots.

There are no hits , wounds or saves(I assume). This is very different than a shooting attack that hits automatically and is not a good comparison. Attacks that say they hit automatically imply an auto pass on the To-Hit mechanic which is far different from The Portal of Exile does not have that mechanic at all.

 Abandon wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
I do not own a Necron Codex so the reference means little to me. Care to quote the relevant portion?

"The Portal of Exile is treated as a Shooting Attack. When used, all enemy models (not units) within d6" of the monolith's portal ..." if they have LoS must pass a Strength Test or die.

It then gives the following profile for the Shooting Attack
d6" X - Heavy 1, Special

So a Shooting Attack which in no way involves the Monolith rolling anything. The Monolith's BS is never used, which is reinforced by the Snap Shot rules specifically mentioning it as an example of a Shooting Attack that doesn't use BS. But if the Monolith had a BS of 0, it would be unable to use the portal per the Broodlord rulings about BS0 models making Shooting Attacks.

So either you would be using the BS of the Monolith to allow you to fire which would allow you to Snap Shot counter to the example, or by "does not use a Ballistic Skill" the Snap Shot rules are not referring to the baseline ability to fire conferred by having a non-0 BS and thus Shooting Attacks that automatically hit do not use BS and thus can't be fired as Snap Shots.

There are no hits , wounds or saves(I assume). This is very different than a shooting attack that hits automatically and is not a good comparison. Attacks that say they hit automatically imply an auto pass on the To-Hit mechanic which is far different from The Portal of Exile does not have that mechanic at all.

Nope, no hits. It's the perfect example of a Shooting Attack that doesn't use BS. An "auto-pass on the To-Hit mechanic" is no different, as neither involves rolling dice and more importantly neither involves the model's BS past the base line "Is my BS > 0 so that I may make a Shooting Attack?"

To word it slightly differently. How do you know what an "automatic hit" is, if you're not referencing To Hit to begin with...?
That's why there is a difference between "automatically hits" and "models meeting these criteria suffer these effects".

 Super Ready wrote:
To word it slightly differently. How do you know what an "automatic hit" is, if you're not referencing To Hit to begin with...?
That's why there is a difference between "automatically hits" and "models meeting these criteria suffer these effects".

True, without referencing To Hit an "automatic hit" has no meaning. But the question is "Are you using a Ballistic Skill?" And the answer is "No." If a Shooting Attack automatically hits, what is the difference between the model having BS 1 and the model having BS 10? There is none, the model's BS is not used in any way. Nor is any other BS used. So a Shooting Attack that automatically hits cannot possibly be using BS, so cannot be fired as a Snap Shot. Absent, of course, specific permission to do so.

The way I see it, permission is given as thus, following the shooting order in the rulebook, page 12 onwards:

1) Opt to fire. Check the rules for the weapon or ability first - this establishes it as a shooting attack and is what prompts us to use the shooting rules.
2) Check line of sight and range (unless the weapon or ability overrides these, of course).
3) Look up the roll to hit. It's at this point that BS0 models are excluded, since we aren't told what they'd need to hit.
4) Having established that the model can indeed fire, before we roll the dice Snap Shots comes into play. The shot is reduced to BS1.
5) At this point, any attacks that are explicitly mentioned as not being able to Snap Shot are disqualified. Note that "automatically hits" does not by itself remove the ability to Snap Shot, per the FAQ.
6) We're left with a model that is firing at BS1, but none of the above overrules "automatically hits". So the shot automatically hits at BS1.

I feel Abandon summed it up nicely earlier with this, the above is just the long-winded "work-it-through" process:

The BRB gives you across the board permission to make snapshots. Permission is then denied to some weapons/attacks. What you actually need to find is denial of that blanket permission for the attack.

Chrysis wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
To word it slightly differently. How do you know what an "automatic hit" is, if you're not referencing To Hit to begin with...?
That's why there is a difference between "automatically hits" and "models meeting these criteria suffer these effects".

True, without referencing To Hit an "automatic hit" has no meaning. But the question is "Are you using a Ballistic Skill?" And the answer is "No." If a Shooting Attack automatically hits.

Sure you are, because you can not even take the shot if you have a BS of 0, so a BS of 1+ has to be linked to using the skill even with automatic hits.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
To word it slightly differently. How do you know what an "automatic hit" is, if you're not referencing To Hit to begin with...?
That's why there is a difference between "automatically hits" and "models meeting these criteria suffer these effects".

True, without referencing To Hit an "automatic hit" has no meaning. But the question is "Are you using a Ballistic Skill?" And the answer is "No." If a Shooting Attack automatically hits.

Sure you are, because you can not even take the shot if you have a BS of 0, so a BS of 1+ has to be linked to using the skill even with automatic hits.

OK, but then the Portal of Exile, given as an example of a Shooting Attack that does not use BS also uses BS under your interpretation. The Portal of Exile is a Shooting Attack. A Model with BS0 cannot make Shooting Attacks. => A model with BS0 cannot use the Portal of Exile. But the Portal of Exile is an attack that doesn't use BS. So if needing a BS > 0 is all that's needed to qualify a Shooting Attack as using BS then all Shooting Attacks in the game use BS, and thus the rule in Snap Shots prohibiting it being done with Shooting Attacks that do not use BS doesn't mean anything because it is impossible for such a Shooting Attack to exist.

The rulebook tells us the Portal of Exile does not use BS. Under your interpretation the Portal of Exile does use BS. Either the Rulebook is wrong, or your interpretation is.

What does it matter with the portal? If it hits automatically, that's fine as it has a BS >0 it could only be a valid example if the monolith didn't have a BS score or was BS0.

Also" treated as a shooting attack" is not always the same as "is a shooting attack" as there are not resolved the same way because usually it's "resolve as X except for all the differences".

So weapons do not always use a BS.
But a models requires BS>0 to to use them.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
What does it matter with the portal? If it hits automatically, that's fine as it has a BS >0 it could only be a valid example if the monolith didn't have a BS score or was BS0.

Also" treated as a shooting attack" is not always the same as "is a shooting attack" as there are not resolved the same way because usually it's "resolve as X except for all the differences".

It boils down to this. The Portal is a Shooting Attack that does not use BS, as per the Snap Shot rules. But, per the rulebook FAQ, it does require a BS > 0. So from the point of view of the rules, requiring a BS > 0 is not "using a Ballistic Skill", at least not as far as Snap Shot rules are concerned.

So we now consider a different Shooting Attack that Hits Automatically. People in this thread are claiming it can be Snap Shot because it requires a BS > 0. But a BS > 0 is not "using a Ballistic Skill", and an attack that "Hits Automatically" does not use a BS in any other way, so it cannot be Snap Shot. People are also using an FAQ that says essentially "If you are Snap Shotting an attack that Hits Automatically, it still Hits Automatically" as justification to Snap Shot all Attacks that Hit Automatically which doesn't logically follow.

This question got so murky so quickly. I'm at work and don't have the BRB handy, but what is the wording in it about swooping/zooming and snapshots exactly? Is it somehow different than the wording about firing snapshots in the shooting phase in general? The entries from the FAQ seem to directly contradict each other otherwise, but possibly could make sense if the wording of the sections was slightly different.

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically
when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’troll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

No those are two different things. Snap shots vs hard to hit.

I can snap shot a beam weapon but I cannot snap shot a beam at a flyer. That's not a big deal.

A lot of people are conflating a snap shot into hard to hit's rule. You can snap shot an auto-hit weapon in overwatch you know....

 liturgies of blood wrote:
No those are two different things. Snap shots vs hard to hit.

I can snap shot a beam weapon but I cannot snap shot a beam at a flyer. That's not a big deal.

A lot of people are conflating a snap shot into hard to hit's rule. You can snap shot an auto-hit weapon in overwatch you know....

So I re-read the Hard to Hit rules, and, to be honest, if it weren't for the FAQ I would think that beams and nova could hit flyers based on the way things are written. With the FAQs though my interpretation is that the Hard to Hit wording that "Shots at a Zooming Flyer [or Swooping Monstrous Creature, ed.] can only be resolved as Snap Shots..." means something different than the restrictions a model faces when they can only fire snapshots and that some how the auto-hitting weapons do "use ballistic skill".

That or the people at GW have no clue WTF they are writing about about... which actually seems like the most plausible story here, but I digress.