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I was considering using a Dark Eldar army with a small detachment of Grey Knights as allies (Coteaz w/ shooty henchmen behind an Aegis). The two factions wouldn't be close to each other all game, as the Dark Eldar attack while the Coteaz unit mans the Quad Gun and deters Reserves from coming into my deployment zone. Then I realized that, together, Vect and Coteaz would allow you to attempt a Seize the Initiative on a 4+ with a reroll. Has anyone tried to build an army around this? If you can trap your opponent into deploying under the assumption of first turn, and then Alpha Strike with Dark Eldar on a successful Seize, it seems quite powerful. What kind of Dark Eldar units would benefit the most?

I feel like this idea isn't very good. I'm not a fan of ally combinations that aren't at least allies of convenience. I also don't think that going 1st is necessarily the best choice the majority of the time. On many objective missions i'd rather go second. Against certain armies i'd also prefer 2nd turn (Flyers, DropPods come to mind). I also think it is way too many points for what amounts to, imo, a gimmick.

 LValx wrote:
I feel like this idea isn't very good. I'm not a fan of ally combinations that aren't at least allies of convenience. I also don't think that going 1st is necessarily the best choice the majority of the time. On many objective missions i'd rather go second. Against certain armies i'd also prefer 2nd turn (Flyers, DropPods come to mind). I also think it is way too many points for what amounts to, imo, a gimmick.

This, all this.

I used to run an Imotekh/Coteaz army. It as pretty good.

Vect + Corteaz is what, 340pts? That's a hell of a lot of points for a simple gimmick. You have a very good chance of seizing first turn but still doesn't guarantee that you're going to do anything effective with it.

If you're playing Dark Eldar, you're going to do something good with the first turn, like kill half the opposing army.

If you are going the DE+coteaz route, go the whole hog and add in the Baron as well. +1 to going first as well as a good chance to seize or prevent your opponent from doing so makes it very likely you go first. Then you DE alpha strike.

Bonus points if it is night fight.

 Dr. Serling wrote:
If you are going the DE+coteaz route, go the whole hog and add in the Baron as well. +1 to going first as well as a good chance to seize or prevent your opponent from doing so makes it very likely you go first. Then you DE alpha strike.

Bonus points if it is night fight.

Plus the baron should just be added in general.

Did this unintentionally in a massive Apoc match. I took Vect in his pimp mobile (yes, really- Slave B*tches and all) and my team let me be captain for the sole reason we could use Vects seize. The other team got first turn, but I seized it with Vect and Cortez's re-roll. Put down a warhound titian, a baneblade, 3 land raiders and a whole punch of small stuff with a whole lot of pulsar lazers. I'm happy to think we won because of that ^^

I use it to great effect in my dark eldar list.

Often it ends games before they begin....and it gives you much better chance against vehicular heavy guard if you build the list right....and mine has evolved since the start of 6th.

Counting on getting the first turn is a powerful ability for shooty dark eldar, and with imagination, coteaz can fit right in and assists WAY more than just granting a RR.

If you think the combo is an expensive simpple gimmick...you havent explored the possible army configurations enough.

My list hums quite nicely and Coteaz has an impact on every battle and makes his presence felt long after the roll to go first. Really, its just a list with two powerful characters. Both are powerful in their own right. Going first is just a super nice benefit to almost be guaranteed in getting.

I dont use the baron btw, but I can see the draw. He just doesnt seem to have a place in a shooty list for me.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
If you're playing Dark Eldar, you're going to do something good with the first turn, like kill half the opposing army.

Not likely. Any half decent opponent will know you are likely going to get an alpha strike and will deploy defensively with as much out of line of sight or in cover as possible. That and in my years of playing 40k I've never ever seen half of a force wiped in turn one ever.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I used to run an Imotekh/Coteaz army. It as pretty good.

+1

Can get pretty nasty.

You may not kill half of an opposing army with shooting but youcan absolutly hamstring your opponent with it. If you are able to get your entire force out of line of sight one of two things will/has happened...

1- there is way too much terrain on the board

2- the DE player will use his speed to circumvent the terrain and wipe your meager force off the board before you start rolling for reserves....winning the game. He has two full turns to do this.

Nevermind that skysheild (probably the dark eldars favorite terrain peice) grants a commanding veiw of the battlefeild after you factor in its elevation combined with the height of a ravager/venoms flying base.

Then you have things like coteaz forcing successful save rr's on a key unit with THE ENTIRE ARMY BENEFITTING, or zapping you in cover with 3 plasma cannons after taking away your cover save and rr'ing to hit, or the billions of Splinter cannon shots that dont care about your save.

Good luck with that hiding plan.

 Blue Falcon wrote:
You may not kill half of an opposing army with shooting but youcan absolutly hamstring your opponent with it. If you are able to get your entire force out of line of sight one of two things will/has happened...

1- there is way too much terrain on the board

2- the DE player will use his speed to circumvent the terrain and wipe your meager force off the board before you start rolling for reserves....winning the game. He has two full turns to do this.

Nevermind that skysheild (probably the dark eldars favorite terrain peice) grants a commanding veiw of the battlefeild after you factor in its elevation combined with the height of a ravager/venoms flying base.

Then you have things like coteaz forcing successful save rr's on a key unit with THE ENTIRE ARMY BENEFITTING, or zapping you in cover with 3 plasma cannons after taking away your cover save and rr'ing to hit, or the billions of Splinter cannon shots that dont care about your save.

Good luck with that hiding plan.

To be fair, it's match up dependent. When I'm playing Daemons I always just assume DE are going to seize on me anyway (because if they do, and I'm not ready for it, it's literally game over). So I always deploy as far back as possible, and as hidden as possible (it's very possible to deploy 4 FMCs out of range of Venoms and everything else in reserve). Then once I get my powers up, and start flying, it's time to start the game. This often makes the first two turns stupid for both sides, but it's that or get tabled on turn 1....

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
That and in my years of playing 40k I've never ever seen half of a force wiped in turn one ever.

You're either a) playing with more than the recommended amount of terrain or b) only ever seeing marines or necrons against DE.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
That and in my years of playing 40k I've never ever seen half of a force wiped in turn one ever.

You're either a) playing with more than the recommended amount of terrain or b) only ever seeing marines or necrons against DE.

Or c) haven't played apocalypse with lots of vortex weapons.

(as an aside, I really feel that apocalypse is a really un-fun game if you go second )

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
That and in my years of playing 40k I've never ever seen half of a force wiped in turn one ever.

You're either a) playing with more than the recommended amount of terrain or b) only ever seeing marines or necrons against DE.

Most of my games are at tournaments in various places, so the amount of terrain isn't consistent, so unless you want to argue that every TO in my country is wrong and you are right, this is clearly not the issue. As for what armies I've seen against DE, I've seen most of them, but your point seems silly in that you are implying that your initial statement is exempt from Marines and Necrons. In other words, your statement of wiping half of any army off the board just became wiping half of any Eldar, Tau, Daemon or Guard army off of the board. DE are not going t be touching the big Eldar contender like Serpent SPAM in a single turn, and Guard armies often have too much for DE to deal with in a turn. But one way or the other, at least make up your mind about what you trying to say instead of throwing late caveats at me as if they were arguments.

Even Eldar and Tau don't statistically wipe half of a properly built competitive 6th edition list off the table in round one. Seriously, show me a few battle reports where a DE list plays against a proper competitive opposition who knows how to play the game and with right terrain, and where the DE wiped half of the enemy army in round 1. I'll only believe it when I see it, because with realistic opposition and terrain it shouldn't be statistically likely.

I have seen it happen to Nids.

This trick would likely work best if you win the dice roll and choose to go second (or your opponent wins and is silly) so that you get to deploy second and go first.