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Fire Prism vs Bright Lance War Walkers

I'd like to take a closer look at Eldar AT, particularly BL War Walkers and the Fire Prism. After looking at list suggestions many people are advising, "Don't take Fire Prisms, they are terrible AA, take BL War Walkers instead." Is this always the best advice for a list, lets take a closer look at the capabilities of this list.

For Comparison, Holofield Fire Prism vs 2 2xBright Lance War Walkers. Both are 140pt heavy support units.

Offense: Fire Prism vs War Walkers
60" BS4 S9 AP1 Lance vs 4 36" BS4 S8 AP2
Vs AV12+ The Fire Prism has a 17% chance of Destroying AV12+ and averages .11 Glances and .33 Pens per turn for an Average of .44 HP/Turn
The War Walkers have a 15% chance of Destroying AV12+ and averages .44 Glances and .88 Pens per turn for an Average of 1.33 HP/Turn

War Walkers maintain their advantage vs Light AV, though the Eldar Army has no shortage of options for taking care of Light AV.
Fire Prism has two blast options, one anti TEQ, one anti MEQ though War Walker RoF makes anti TEQ a wash.

Clear advantage for the War Walkers though the Fire Prism has a marginal advantage in chance of Destruction.

Defense: Fire Prism vs War Walkers
60" Range vs 36" Range
AV12/3HP with a 4+ Cover Save vs AV10/4HP Open Topped with 5+ Cover(Data assume only HP removal for Hit data, chance of Destruction is per Hit(AP-, AP2, AP1))
Strength 4 Weapons: Fire Prism is Immune vs War Walkers 36 hits to Wreck
Strength 5 Weapons: Fire Prism is Immune vs War Walkers 18 hits to Wreck with a .04/.05/.07 chance of destruction
Strength 6 Weapons: Fire Prism 36 Hits to Wreck vs 12 hits to Wreck with a .07/.11/.15 chance of destruction
Strength 7 Weapons: Fire Prism 18 Hits to Wreck with a .01/.03/.04 chance of destruction vs 9 hits to Wreck with a .11/.17/.22 chance of destruction
Strength 8 Weapons: Fire Prism 12 Hits to Wreck with a .03/.06/.08 chance of destruction vs 7 hits to Wreck with a .15/.22/.29 chance of destruction
Strength 9 Weapons: Fire Prism 9 Hits to Wreck with a .04/.08/.13 chance of destruction vs 6 hits to Wreck with a .18/.28/.37 chance of destruction
Strength 10 Weapons: Fire Prism 7 Hits to Wreck with a .07/.14/.21 chance of destruction vs 6 hits to Wreck with a .22/.33/.44 chance of destruction

Clear advantage for the Fire Prism. They simply take hits and ignore low strength firepower whereas the War Walkers are vulnerable to even small arms fire.

Mobility: Fire Prism vs War Walkers
Fast Skimmer vs Walker(Scout, Fleet, Battle Focus)

Minor advantage Fire Prism, though Battle Focus with the right application, rolls, and available terrain can be very effective and adding durability while diminishing battlefield movement.

AA Considerations: The Fire Prism is not effective AA, while the War Walker squadron when Guided or Precienced can offer a significant amount of AA firepower, best in codex short of the more expensive Crimson Hunter Exarch. Watch out for the 1-2 turn of shooting they will have to take before Flyers hit the board as a capable opponent will prioritize your War Walkers so keep them safe if possible.

Here we have two Heavy Support options, the War Walkers deal phenomenal amounts of damage against a variety of targets but suffer from extreme vulnerability. The Fire Prism has the mobility, range, and durability to outlast the War Walkers evening out their damage output over time. If you are fielding BL War Walkers and they routinely don't live past T2, consider the Fire Prism as a more durable option so long as you have AA available in your army, YMMV.

IMO the Fire Prism is the better choice for Serpent Spam as the added AV12, range, and durability compliments the army very well while the War Walkers provide and easy target for any S5/6/7 mid ranged firepower. With the rise of Eldar and Tau this range of firepower has become exceedingly common and War Walkers are not likely to survive to deliver their massive payload of Shots whether that is in the for of Dual BL or Shuriken Cannon/Scatter Laser.

Walkers aren't reigned in by having only a single shot, get more out of Prescience/Guide, can hide out of LOS completely after shooting (making their vulnerability irrelevant), and Walkers save can't be taken away unlike the Prism. It's not always just a case of standing them side by side and shooting with them and taking hits to see which is better; their are much greater tactical consideration that math can't answer.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Walkers aren't reigned in by having only a single shot, get more out of Prescience/Guide, can hide out of LOS completely after shooting (making their vulnerability irrelevant), and Walkers save can't be taken away unlike the Prism. It's not always just a case of standing them side by side and shooting with them and taking hits to see which is better; their are much greater tactical consideration that math can't answer.

I have touched on all three of these topics before. Battlefocusing the Walkers back into cover relies on four very important things, having proper LOS blocking terrain that won't impede firing, being within range, and rolling welling enough to make it back, and your opponent not being able to draw LOS to them. Precience, albeit very powerful on War Walkers and their single biggest boon.

A Walker's cover save can be removed just like any other cover save and getting out of LOS is no guarantee.

I am well aware there is a greater tactical consideration to these units. I'm offering a comparison and a case for the Fire Prism to be considered in some lists instead of the default opinion of it being inferior to War Walkers.

War Walkers have their place and can be immensely useful for Alphas Striking the enemy. Fire Prisms can have their place especially with their range and Durability synergizing with Wave Serpents.

He was referring to the Walker's invulnerable save, not a cover save.

Zagman wrote:
I have touched on all three of these topics before. Battlefocusing the Walkers back into cover relies on four very important things, having proper LOS blocking terrain that won't impede firing, being within range, and rolling welling enough to make it back, and your opponent not being able to draw LOS to them.

Right let's get one thing straight here, because I really hate the whole 'relying on proper terrain argument'. I'd like to assume that for all intents and purposes that people are playing 40k correctly, and that includes using the right terrain. So we're not going to speculate on something that should be there; that's like saying something relies on using standard FOC.

Rolling enough to get back in isn't something that comes to chance. For 3 Walker to draw a bead on the same thing only two have to be out front. That's just less than 4" of base, and so only a little less than 4" out of the terrain. With an an average of 3.5 on a single D6, and with a re-roll from Fleet, you are making those 4" back in most of the time.

Zagman wrote:
A Walker's cover save can be removed just like any other cover save and getting out of LOS is no guarantee.

Really? Please list for me all of the things in the game that remove an Invulnerable Save.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Really? Please list for me all of the things in the game that remove an Invulnerable Save.

Vindicare Shield Breaker rounds.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Really? Please list for me all of the things in the game that remove an Invulnerable Save.

Vindicare Shield Breaker rounds.

To be honest, I'd expect the Vindicare to hit me up with a Turbo-Pen rather than a Shieldbreaker!

Iranna.

I had a moment where I got hung up on Cover saves and forgot about the completely redundant Invuln. Please ignore my comment and forgive the error.

Durability is still vastly in the favor of the Fire Prism, but the ability to negate the Fire Prism's Save is valid.

Average of 3.5 is not quite correct, you fail 50% of the time on a single roll by rolling a 1, 2, or 3, Fleet allows you to reroll that. So 35% of the time you will fail to make it back to be hidden. Also, moving only 3 inches is likely to obscure much of the board as well depending on size/shape of LOS blocking terrain. Many tournaments don't have terrain on every table in every deployment zone capable of completely hiding War Walkers, or has that terrain in a location you want to deploy War Walkers. It is worth mentioning though many tables will have the appropriate terrain.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Really? Please list for me all of the things in the game that remove an Invulnerable Save.

Vindicare Shield Breaker rounds.

Pretty sure you have to wound to apply shield breaker round. Since you can't wound vehicles, War Walker Inv cannot be removed by shield breaker rounds.

leohart wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Really? Please list for me all of the things in the game that remove an Invulnerable Save.

Vindicare Shield Breaker rounds.

Pretty sure you have to wound to apply shield breaker round. Since you can't wound vehicles, War Walker Inv cannot be removed by shield breaker rounds.

This is indeed correct. Siege Breaker only takes effect when a wound is allocated to the model.

UPDATE: REMOVED because I didn't drink coffee before posting

Are you sure it's on a To Wound roll? I was under the impression that Shieldbreaker rounds work when a model is successfully hit.

Iranna.

The durability is not in huge favor of the fire prism. Straight number of hits to wreck/chance to destroy, sure, the advantage goes to the fire prism. but as soon as the fire prism suffers a weapon destroyed it has a 50% chance to be useless. Immobilization reduces its cover save to a 6+, crew shaken or stunned its effectiveness goes out the window. The fact that war walkers are a squadron gives it a HUGE advantage in terms of penetrating - but not destroying hits, as the rest of the squadron can continue fighting as normal.

The Fire Prism also has the advantage of turbo boosting to safety if things go terribly wrong.

 Iranna wrote:
Are you sure it's on a To Wound roll? I was under the impression that Shieldbreaker rounds work when a model is successfully hit.

Iranna.

Yes.

Codex: Grey Knights, p53:

"When a wound from this round is allocated to a model, that models loses any invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear immediately, and for the rest of the battle."