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I've noticed a lot of homemade Tau, Eldar, and Necron Aegis Defense Lines are beginning to use the 'energy field' appearance for games of 40K. I was curious as to how this may affect the rules on LoS and gaining cover? These fields are usually projections that allow the entire model to be seen, but are counted as being in cover, as well as allowing the models to fire through them. Are these just house rules at this point? Could someone argue that the following models are not in cover because they aren't obscured by any terrain?

I'm sorry, but you've got to be just about the lowest class of player if you'd seriously have an issue with not allowing someone to use those. Maybe the clear ones would be annoying as they are kind of hard to see, but why would anyone have issues with anything else?

If I were using such a model, I would say that the "energy field" part cannot be seen through, just like a normal ADL. This would affect both my and the enemy's models. If it CAN be seen through, then it does not grant cover to either side.

There is nothing in the rules that allows you to draw LOS through transparent terrain. A piece of clear terrain blocks LOS exactly like a piece of opaque terrain.

Depends, if they are the same (or very, very close) to the same dimensions as the aegis line then there wouldn't be an issue.
However, if they are noticeably larger than the aegis, then that's modeling for advantage.

 Peregrine wrote:
There is nothing in the rules that allows you to draw LOS through transparent terrain

Actually the Line of Sight and cover rules allow this.

(The cover rules also allow this as models behind clear terrain are not obscured. Obscured, according to Oxfords means to keep from being seen, Windows do not accomplish this).

A piece of clear terrain blocks LOS exactly like a piece of opaque terrain.

No it actually does not.

Oh my really.

If a dude was using these as an ascetic substitute for an ADL, then I would and you should allow them the same rule set for the ADL from the brb. Sad just sad.

The models are count-as ADL pieces and should be assumed to have the same dimensions and properties.

I'm just waiting for the day someone makes terrain out of mirrors.

I don't really have a problem with a counts-as ADL so long as it's treated as such, but the principle of "I can see you but you can't see me" through the same terrain is fundamentally problematic.

In the first pic, they obviously have both cover, and LOS over the top to fire (and be shot in the face, in turn).

The 2nd pic's angle is bad, but it seems to be the same story... they're shooting over the top of the barrier, and can thus also be shot in the head.

The other pics are hard to guess the size of, so anyone's guess on how a model stacks up against it...

... but, yeah, I'd allow these to be played exactly as an ADL or similar fortification.

Well, the actual ADL has murder slits, so I assume that anyone up against it can still fire through it normally. That's just the way I've always seen every reasonable person play it.

These are totally legit as ADL pieces, assuming they aren't a different profile. (The yellow ones look a little too tall to me, but that might just be me being tired...)

If the energy field was clear I would use a wash or something to make it opaque enough to obscure the models so it would work as intended.

The local Eldar player that has a similar ADL counts-as does that(clear plastic with a wash to make it opaque)

 Grey Templar wrote:
If the energy field was clear I would use a wash or something to make it opaque enough to obscure the models so it would work as intended.

The local Eldar player that has a similar ADL counts-as does that(clear plastic with a wash to make it opaque)

I'm guessing one of those newer Glazes would be perfect for this.

And lets not forget that there are terrain rules for shield generators. Those fantastic terrain pieces could be used as that. But I'm more than happy to play against a power field ADL, they look great and fit the army much better than the imperial eagle covered GW one.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Actually the Line of Sight and cover rules allow this.

(The cover rules also allow this as models behind clear terrain are not obscured. Obscured, according to Oxfords means to keep from being seen, Windows do not accomplish this).

Specific citation please. The LOS rules require a "straight unblocked line", and a line through a piece of partially-transparent plastic is not unblocked.

Also, let's look at all of the definitions: c : not clearly seen or easily distinguished : faint <obscure markings>. A model behind a partially-transparent piece of plastic (for example, the first picture) is not clearly seen so RAW it gets a cover save.

WAACAH

@OP: How do you draw Line of Sight from a model with a helmet on?

Seriously, I have no respect for people who would seirously do this and try to get an advantage over someone who prefers to use well-looking and fitting terrain pieces - it's just sad and extremely poor sportsmanship.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Actually the Line of Sight and cover rules allow this.

(The cover rules also allow this as models behind clear terrain are not obscured. Obscured, according to Oxfords means to keep from being seen, Windows do not accomplish this).

Also, let's look at all of the definitions: c : not clearly seen or easily distinguished : faint <obscure markings>. A model behind a partially-transparent piece of plastic (for example, the first picture) is not clearly seen so RAW it gets a cover save.

That is great, but does not apply as the models are not drawings on a cave wall. Context is important.

obscure

verb
[with object]
keep from being seen; conceal
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/obscure?q=obscure

Specific citation please. The LOS rules require a "straight unblocked line", and a line through a piece of partially-transparent plastic is not unblocked.

Here you go

"line of sight literally represents your warriors' view of the enemy - they must be able to see their foes through, under or over the battlefield terrain and other models (whether friendly or enemy)." (8) (Emphasis mine)

The part that says "they must be able to see their foes through...the battlefield terrain" tells us that they can indeed see through the terrain if they can actually see through the terrain such as windows, clear pieces of aluminium that hold whales in their tanks etc...

Indisputable proof of my earlier statement.

As you like to point out so often, Deathreaper, context is important.

I think every rational player realizes that when Games Workshop says "see through terrain" they mean seeing through gaps within the terrain such as windows, murder slits, cracks, or blast holes. If I bring a piece of terrain made from clear, thick material designed to look like a giant transparent diamond, or a huge clear piece of ice, no one is going to argue that since they can see their foes through the terrain that they can draw LOS.

Now, if you wanted to argue a strictly RAW interpretation, without context, you might have some ground to stand on with your argument, but I still don't think anyone is going to see that as a reasonable way to play the game.

 Jimsolo wrote:
That is great, but does not apply as the models are not drawings on a cave wall. Context is important.

Err, lol? Even the dictionary definition is very clear that "obscured" does not mean "100% invisible", regardless of whether you're talking about objects that are behind something/in smoke/etc or faded markings or any other thing where visibility is hindered.

I think every rational player realizes that when Games Workshop says "see through terrain" they mean seeing through gaps within the terrain such as windows, murder slits, cracks, or blast holes.

This. The rulebook even gives a specific example of LOS that appears to be blocked initially but when you bend down and look at the model's eye view you can see part of the target model through gaps in a forest.

There is no transparent energy field in the fortifications section of the BRB. So if it is on the table then it is a 'counts as ADL' meaning you treat the proxy as if it were an ADL, for height, width, LoS, etc.

 deviantduck wrote:
There is no transparent energy field in the fortifications section of the BRB

Try the terrain section:
Shield Generators (p105)
Force Dome Generator (p106)
Psionic Shield Generator (p107)

 Jimsolo wrote:
As you like to point out so often, Deathreaper, context is important.

I think every rational player realizes that when Games Workshop says "see through terrain" they mean seeing through gaps within the terrain such as windows, murder slits, cracks, or blast holes. If I bring a piece of terrain made from clear, thick material designed to look like a giant transparent diamond, or a huge clear piece of ice, no one is going to argue that since they can see their foes through the terrain that they can draw LOS.

So you can't see through the windows of a ruin to shoot the guys on the other side?

Oh wait, you can, as you mentioned. Why can a model see through a window and not that piece of terrain that is essentially a giant window made to function as an ADL?

Citation needed, and please be consistent.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I think every rational player realizes that when Games Workshop says "see through terrain" they mean seeing through gaps within the terrain such as windows, murder slits, cracks, or blast holes.

This. The rulebook even gives a specific example of LOS that appears to be blocked initially but when you bend down and look at the model's eye view you can see part of the target model through gaps in a forest.

So you are arguing intent, not RAW, got it...

Unfortunately we have no idea what they meant, so we have to go with what is written.

and as RAW if you can see through it, the model on the other side is not obscured.

I would let an opponent use those pieces, and claim the cover save as if my models line of Sight was obscured, if it was behind the clear energy field wall looking thing, but that is a houserule to allow opponents to use the terrain they made without having it be useless.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Actually the Line of Sight and cover rules allow this.

(The cover rules also allow this as models behind clear terrain are not obscured. Obscured, according to Oxfords means to keep from being seen, Windows do not accomplish this).

Specific citation please. The LOS rules require a "straight unblocked line", and a line through a piece of partially-transparent plastic is not unblocked.

Also, let's look at all of the definitions: c : not clearly seen or easily distinguished : faint <obscure markings>. A model behind a partially-transparent piece of plastic (for example, the first picture) is not clearly seen so RAW it gets a cover save.

When I look out my nice clean completely transparent front window, do I have LOS to the street; or is my vision somehow blocked by the clear glass?

Unblocked does not mean that there is nothing between the the firing model and the target model; it means that the view itself is unblocked(meaning there is nothing preventing you from seeing the target)

And the not clearly seen argument really does not mean anything as DR was countering your assertion that a transparent piece of terrain blocks LOS(which is 100% not the case).

 grendel083 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
There is no transparent energy field in the fortifications section of the BRB

Try the terrain section:
Shield Generators (p105)
Force Dome Generator (p106)
Psionic Shield Generator (p107)

All very true. The OP was referring to ADL proxies, though. The ones you listed are objectives/artifacts. However, they are an interesting point in dealing with LoS. All of the LoS rules are models eyes to target and it doesn't make any mention of materials you actually see through. Its pretty much the opposite of the newly FAQd blast marker debate. You can wound targets out of line of sight, but how do you figure out the cover save of a target you can't see? This conundrum is the inverse, how do you figure out the cover save of a model you can see, but don't have an unobstructed path to?

 deviantduck wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
There is no transparent energy field in the fortifications section of the BRB

Try the terrain section:
Shield Generators (p105)
Force Dome Generator (p106)
Psionic Shield Generator (p107)

All very true. The OP was referring to ADL proxies, though.

Sorry, I could have sworn I read someone suggest using them as standard terrain. Thought that's what you were replying to. Wasn't quite awake at the time.

 deviantduck wrote:
Its pretty much the opposite of the newly FAQd blast marker debate. You can wound targets out of line of sight, but how do you figure out the cover save of a target you can't see? This conundrum is the inverse, how do you figure out the cover save of a model you can see, but don't have an unobstructed path to?

Just as you would for a normal model, maybe I do not understand the question.

If you trace a Line of Sight to a completely obscured model, then that model is "at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer" (18 Determining cover saves).

So whatever is blocking the line of sight is the cover you use. A ruin, 4+, a tree/forest 5+, a wooden fence 6+ Etc...

This matters in the case of using Look out sir to pass the wound to a model behind the wall of a ruin but completely out of Line of Sight of any of the firing models. amongst others.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Actually the Line of Sight and cover rules allow this.

(The cover rules also allow this as models behind clear terrain are not obscured. Obscured, according to Oxfords means to keep from being seen, Windows do not accomplish this).

Specific citation please. The LOS rules require a "straight unblocked line", and a line through a piece of partially-transparent plastic is not unblocked.

Also, let's look at all of the definitions: c : not clearly seen or easily distinguished : faint <obscure markings>. A model behind a partially-transparent piece of plastic (for example, the first picture) is not clearly seen so RAW it gets a cover save.

When I look out my nice clean completely transparent front window, do I have LOS to the street; or is my vision somehow blocked by the clear glass?

Unblocked does not mean that there is nothing between the the firing model and the target model; it means that the view itself is unblocked(meaning there is nothing preventing you from seeing the target)

And the not clearly seen argument really does not mean anything as DR was countering your assertion that a transparent piece of terrain blocks LOS(which is 100% not the case).

Exactly this. the view itself is unblocked even though there is a window in the way.

You guys are arguing about obscurement, while ignoring the concept of "cover". In a fire fight, "obscurement" blocks line of sight, "cover" stops or reduces incoming fire. In the case of the transparent fields being used to represent cover, if the goal is to stop or reduce incoming damage, then the cover save provided is correct regardless of whether or not you can see through it. In context of the game, percentage of obscurement is used as a way of determining cover save, not as a method of denying a save due to "I can see him behind the clear energy barrier, therefore my bullets ignore the barrier" argument. Its a barrier regardless of transparency, where its overall shape and dimensions matter, not the material its modeled from.

SJ

And in the BRB you only get a cover save if your model is obscured by 25% or more. Since the transparent walls do not obscure at all, you do not meet that criteria.