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Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:


After a while you recgonise the negative voices tend to be the same ones.there aren't that many, and they keep repeating the same arguments. They do also seem to be very self-aggrandising and take any correction of basic facts as an insult.

You could make the exact same argument for the "white knights" though.

It is always the same old names, trotting the same old tired arguments, inserting the same back handed compliments and snarky retorts while hand waving and saying "don't buy it then" or "yeah, well you aren't boss of GW and couldn't do better"

There have been atrocities on both sides, but you notice those committed by the opposing side much more vividly.

Infinity forums, datasphere, Mantic forums, Flames of War.. pretty positive places..

I do find it a bit sad that someone can write something like this..

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I do not believe myself a 'hater', yet have been referred to as such whenever I have voiced concern or criticism by certain posters. As a consumer of their products for 28 years, a continuing customer and a grown up with the capacity to form a rational opinion, I feel I and others can speak on an open and independent forum when I am not satisfied or have concerns and wish to discuss these with my peers, yet some posters will consistently flame people for voicing concern or criticism as though such were forbidden or somehow personally offensive to them. Therein we experience this odd little conflict here and elsewhere.

Can get this kind of response..

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
After a while you recgonise the negative voices tend to be the same ones.there aren't that many, and they keep repeating the same arguments. They do also seem to be very self-aggrandising and take any correction of basic facts as an insult.

Big GW fan here. Love to hate it(expense). Been playing GW since the mid 90s, no reason to quit. As far as a GW friendly zone on the internet? Ahhh... your not gonna find one.

Maybe you could try their own foru... oh, no.

Hmm.

Oh, I know, perhaps you could use their Faceb.. ah, no.

Perhaps you could start one?!

 azreal13 wrote:
Maybe you could try their own foru... oh, no.

Hmm.

Oh, I know, perhaps you could use their Faceb.. ah, no.

Perhaps you could start one?!

They do have this facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/GWFulchester

Although it may not be representative of the whole company.

Dakka doesn't enforce any opinions though, this is just a community gathered from the Internet, and many others are similar in tone. GW simply do a lot of unpopular stuff. I think to find a site that is 'majority positive', as compared to Dakka, would require some artificial interference. Dakka is positive about GW products, there's huge excitement for each new release. Yes there's criticism about things like the Space Maribe Centurions but that's because they look gak. If you're going to ask that people are specifically positive then it will be a very artificial environment in which to discuss things.

You won't find a forum with a pro-GW majority until GW either brings back their own forums (lol) or stops doing things that make people criticize them. Any place that has open and honest discussion instead of moderators enforcing a strict pro-GW-only policy will inevitably have an anti-GW majority.

xxvaderxx wrote:
I mean, i am not going to take sides on this particular post, but it is clear that the majority of Dakka dakka has a negative opinion on GW, so my question is, is there a forum where it is the opposite?.

What have they done lately that has been or can currently be called positive?

 Grot 6 wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
I mean, i am not going to take sides on this particular post, but it is clear that the majority of Dakka dakka has a negative opinion on GW, so my question is, is there a forum where it is the opposite?.

What have they done lately that has been or can currently be called positive?

Here's an excellent case in point.

All the rules forums and painting and modeling forums suggest that there's a lot of "pro" here, and in every TTG forum.
So does all the excited talk in the C:SM thread in N&R. It's not all positive on the surface but it's generally impassioned and engaged.

It's not that many of us hate GW. We wan to love GW, as most of us had GW as an entry to war gaming. However, recent actions that GW has engaged in have left us upset, as we feel they are trying to push us vets away.

We also dislike the "white knight" posters who claim nothing GW does is ever bad, argue against things that were never even said, and generally make a nuisance of themselves.

 BlapBlapBlap wrote:
GW website. They're huge fans.

Until they shut down their own forum for negativity...

I find that the largest criticism of any company happens in the Dakka Discussions forum and the News & Rumours forum. Outside of those two forums, there is so much positive stuff here on Dakka Dakka. Spend some time in the painting section, for example.

I'm one of GW' customers. I used to spend a lot of money with them every month. Now I have spent less than $100 over the last year with them. And that was from eBay sellers breaking up battle force boxes.

I'm waiting for products to be released that appeal to me. Sadly there has been little. It's not hate to express dissatisfaction with GW's products and practices.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I find that the largest criticism of any company happens in the Dakka Discussions forum and the News & Rumours forum. Outside of those two forums, there is so much positive stuff here on Dakka Dakka. Spend some time in the painting section, for example.

I'm one of GW' customers. I used to spend a lot of money with them every month. Now I have spent less than $100 over the last year with them. And that was from eBay sellers breaking up battle force boxes.

I'm waiting for products to be released that appeal to me. Sadly there has been little. It's not hate to express dissatisfaction with GW's products and practices.

Bingo.

And with embargos and the online retailers debacle, its really hard to defend GWs intentions with growing the hobby.

 Grot 6 wrote:
What have they done lately that has been or can currently be called positive?

They cancelled free gaming in GW stores. This is great news!

 Grot 6 wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
I mean, i am not going to take sides on this particular post, but it is clear that the majority of Dakka dakka has a negative opinion on GW, so my question is, is there a forum where it is the opposite?.

What have they done lately that has been or can currently be called positive?

You are one of the small minority of people that part of the blokes problem, why are you even bothering to post in here?

As far as your "question" goes, why not just look at all the models and books they are constantly releasing? The fact is, most people educated in the facts (myself included) have some degree of contempt for GWs silly corporate decisions, high prices, and lawsuits, but that isn't part of the hobby, thats corporate business. Why does that have to play a part in your decision making? Are you one of these weird commune living fethers who sports a beard, lives in a wigwam, and only buys fair trade and mercilessly studies the background of every company you occasionally buy from?

If you look past your fixation with the behind the scenes, every release that they have made can be called positive, because it has saw some excellent models enter the hobby, starting with DE and moving all the way to the present, Eldar, DA, Chaos, Tau, if you remove your strange distaste for everything two tiers above the hobby from the equation, they constantly do the same positive things any gaming company does, making and sculpting models and books.

The vast majority of people that play 40k (myself included) liked plenty of their lizardmen models even if they don't play them, and are looking forward to the new Space Marine codex.

If you have a bizarre loathing for a PLC that you don't own stock in, and a team of developers and painters and sculptors that you have never met, and don't know, because you have to toss them all under the umbrella of "evil" then I suggest you stop buying pretty much anything and everything. Apple, Starbucks, McDonalds, what is left to buy from if you apply such a ridiculously high bar?


What I recommend you do however, is get over yourself, and buy things you like for the sheer joy of wanting them, and having enough cash in your arse pocket. Regardless of the fact that you heard a rumor that the company is question has a sweat shop in Peru, buys beef from governments hostile to US interests, or tries to avoid paying their taxes.

For a shorter response, read something by MGS, who rightly pointed out that having distaste for everything suit, doesn't mean you have to deprive yourself of something you enjoy.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I

We also dislike the "white knight" posters who claim nothing GW does is ever bad, argue against things that were never even said, and generally make a nuisance of themselves.

Are there any people who actually claim that nothing GW does is ever bad?

The 'white knights' as some people tend to call them, often tend to point out that GW are a Plc, a commercial company who make decisions for commercial reasons, not all of which we like, and that it doesn't help to react emotionally. Yet simple arguments such as those seem to stimulate real anger and hate, charges of hypocrisy, or claims that they're "white knights who claim nothing GW is ever bad."

This often reminds me of a glass half full, glass half empty argument. I would argue the glass is half full - I can understand people arguing it's half empty, but there are a fair few people who argue, "the glass is totally empty, man, I read it in a post on the internet, so stop being a white knight!"

In fairness to dakkadakka, when I've been buying cameras I've noticed there are camera forums where photographers think they know better how to run a company than Canon or Leica, and get all irate. There are probably a thousand similar examples.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:
What have they done lately that has been or can currently be called positive?

They cancelled free gaming in GW stores. This is great news!

And - in all affection, kroothawk, because I love your modelling and your news updates - the "Haters" tend to keep repeating the same information that's simply wrong. We've been in around 10 stores in the last six months, every last one allows gaming, Curtis has spent days in shops like Truro or Bluewater, entertianment for free, and in threads on this subject, I've only seen the name of Derby, where gaming no longer takes place. You must surely know this, yet you repeat the same misleading, outdated "facts".

And the fact that "haters" think the ancient meme about "this is great news" is still a withering put down... well, as we said, some of those arguments are tired.




.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

Are there any people who actually claim that nothing GW does is ever bad?

Maybe not everything, but there certainly are ones that claim that prices have gone down (because you no longer need to buy your plasma gun, heavy bolter and sergeant as separate metal blisters, they seem to ignore all the direct product to identical product comparisons that have gone up over 100%).



@ mattyrm: Yes, pretty much every company is going to be doing things people don't like, but there is a difference between making your products in a sweatshop in china and hiding that fact while your marketing department go on about how you donated $5 to charity and insulting your customers on facebook.

 mattyrm wrote:

If you look past your fixation with the behind the scenes, every release that they have made can be called positive, because it has saw some excellent models enter the hobby

On the other side of the coin those same releases can also be called a negative. Most obviously due to steadily increasing prices. On the rules front there have been some significant problems with the main rules over recent years. 40K's flyer fixation for instance can't be seen in a positive light, just like 5th ed's transport fixation. Additionally GW have never been able to produce a properly balanced ruleset, seemingly on purpose. They can't even manage to get the internal balance right.

GW does still produce some quality products, notably miniatures, but they fall short of the quality line too often and they have too many systemic problems for me to sing their praises anymore.

This forum is pro GW, it is after all set up specifically to cater for Wargamers with a focus on GW games. Virtually every Dakkanaut will play with GW toy soldiersto some degree. I bought my first GW model when I was 8, I am now 34 and I have spent literally thousands of pounds over the years on GW toys, surely I am entitled to voice my disquiet over the direction of GW's products and its questionable practices on a forum all but dedicated to GW without being mindlessly labelled a 'hater'?

 Grot 6 wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
I mean, i am not going to take sides on this particular post, but it is clear that the majority of Dakka dakka has a negative opinion on GW, so my question is, is there a forum where it is the opposite?.

What have they done lately that has been or can currently be called positive?

Its a matter of perspective.

Releasing new 40k rules books + supplements every month = ridiculously expensive if you buy them all.
Finally having a plan to get all the armies in 40k up to date *in the same edition* = priceless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
I've only seen the name of Derby, where gaming no longer takes place.

I'd like to add Milton Keynes to that. We asked if we could have a game there and were told a flat no. I think their table is for demo games only.

PredaKhaine wrote:


I'd like to add Milton Keynes to that. We asked if we could have a game there and were told a flat no. I think their table is for demo games only.

Thanks for the extra info. It is of course stupid and annoying that a few stores don't allow gaming. But the facts suggest the majority do - even though it's frequently claimed here that gaming is "banned".

It's also worth pointing out that the much-discussed "ban", actually referred to a change of policy from open games, where you turn up with a mate (still allowed in many/most places), to organised leagues, theme games etc. So Kings Lynn, one of the first stores to attract publicity, still has regular gaming - and even Milton Keynes and Derby have, surprise surprise, gaming events.

I mention this not to assert that GW are wonderful - merely that some of the assertions repeated on here are internet gossip that doesn't hold up.

.

I'm in complete agreement.
Every GW I've physically been to has had gaming

What most people I know seem to be complaining about is that the stores went to 1 man stores which led to gaming cutbacks - For example, this closed our local GW's gaming room and all the after 6pm gaming.
I've not been in to game since as I work. Unless I go on the weekend - when all GW's are perceived to be 'full of kids'. Which is apparently a fate worse than death to some 40kers.
I've been gaming in GW on saturdays every now and then and tbh - its been fine

 mattyrm wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:

xxvaderxx wrote:
I mean, i am not going to take sides on this particular post, but it is clear that the majority of Dakka dakka has a negative opinion on GW, so my question is, is there a forum where it is the opposite?.

What have they done lately that has been or can currently be called positive?

You are one of the small minority of people that part of the blokes problem, why are you even bothering to post in here?

As far as your "question" goes, why not just look at all the models and books they are constantly releasing? The fact is, most people educated in the facts (myself included) have some degree of contempt for GWs silly corporate decisions, high prices, and lawsuits, but that isn't part of the hobby, thats corporate business. Why does that have to play a part in your decision making? Are you one of these weird commune living fethers who sports a beard, lives in a wigwam, and only buys fair trade and mercilessly studies the background of every company you occasionally buy from?

If you look past your fixation with the behind the scenes, every release that they have made can be called positive, because it has saw some excellent models enter the hobby, starting with DE and moving all the way to the present, Eldar, DA, Chaos, Tau, if you remove your strange distaste for everything two tiers above the hobby from the equation, they constantly do the same positive things any gaming company does, making and sculpting models and books.

The vast majority of people that play 40k (myself included) liked plenty of their lizardmen models even if they don't play them, and are looking forward to the new Space Marine codex.

If you have a bizarre loathing for a PLC that you don't own stock in, and a team of developers and painters and sculptors that you have never met, and don't know, because you have to toss them all under the umbrella of "evil" then I suggest you stop buying pretty much anything and everything. Apple, Starbucks, McDonalds, what is left to buy from if you apply such a ridiculously high bar?


What I recommend you do however, is get over yourself, and buy things you like for the sheer joy of wanting them, and having enough cash in your arse pocket. Regardless of the fact that you heard a rumor that the company is question has a sweat shop in Peru, buys beef from governments hostile to US interests, or tries to avoid paying their taxes.

For a shorter response, read something by MGS, who rightly pointed out that having distaste for everything suit, doesn't mean you have to deprive yourself of something you enjoy.

Wow. Want to post a few paragraphs about Union conspiracies, vegetarians, and demand the person you're quoting get a haircut as well?

It can be difficult to post a statement about GW news that doesn't sound like a complaint.

How I see it is a few things in this: There are few groups instead of the two suggested.

First one, is as the OP stated kind of, it the ones that are overtly negative about Games Workshop. This is the minority of sorts, part in due to GW still kind of having a monopoly on the Miniature Wargaming market, although not being 'The Hobby' solely by itself.

Then, There is the GW whiteknights, which I see as a minority as well, even more so than the group above. Reason being to me is that GW seemed to upset a lot of people over the years, but there are some still around that wholeheartedly cannot leave they know, love and still play to this very day, and outright bash anyone who plays any other game (Not trying to piss off anyone, but that can go for any fanboy, be it PP or Corvus Belli).

Then there are some who are Neutral towards GW, who only just see it as a business that is trying to make itself money, like any other business out there (which is part of the main concept of Capitalism, the next main part being how the consumer values what he/she potentially wants to buy, and if he is willing to buy said product from business. This is more or less as Two sentence explanation, so not the best. Now back on topic....). This seems to be the majority of Dakka Dakka, who can range from people buying and playing GW games, people who do not, or they can both play those games. This might be a broad explanation of it, so take what I have said with a bit of a grain of salt.

Although I tend to have a nihilistic view towards GW, maybe Miniature Wargaming in general I think. I buy and play what interest me, and if I do not view that company intriguing me, I do not buy, pure and simple, so I do not buy GW. Then again, once you view it as yourself playing with your toy soldiers playing against others with their toy soldiers, I guess that is the viewpoint that comes out. Not trying to piss anyone off, I thought I throw my two-cents in.

 mattyrm wrote:
As far as your "question" goes, why not just look at all the models and books they are constantly releasing?

I do, and they've been consistently disappointing. Let's go back and look at those new releases:

C:SM: already looks disappointing. The big new kit looks stupid, the restrictions on mixing chapters/characters ruins existing armies, and there isn't really anything to get excited about.

Apocalypse: complete disappointment. The rules were garbage, the new models were garbage, and we introduced the unbelievable stupidity of limited-edition templates that you need to play the game.

Eldar: complete disappointment. The new big kit is underwhelming and the badly needed update to replace the finecast infantry kits didn't happen. And of course the supplement was a joke.

Tau: average. Rules were improved overall (though still had their stupid parts, like nerfing the tanks), but that wasn't too hard given how old the codex was. Models were mixed, the new plastic pathfinders are great, but the flyers look like a last-second mess thrown together so the designers could get to work on the next project.

DA: complete disappointment. Models range from mediocre (all the over-decorated infantry) to utterly stupid (the flyers and new land speeder), rules weren't all that impressive.


So yeah, I don't really see GW's latest releases as anything to praise, especially considering how prices keep going up and up.

The fact is, most people educated in the facts (myself included) have some degree of contempt for GWs silly corporate decisions, high prices, and lawsuits, but that isn't part of the hobby, thats corporate business. Why does that have to play a part in your decision making? Are you one of these weird commune living fethers who sports a beard, lives in a wigwam, and only buys fair trade and mercilessly studies the background of every company you occasionally buy from?

The difference is that, unlike most companies we buy from, we actually have a stake in GW's continued success. If the grocery store I go to goes out of business I don't care, the biggest potential impact on me would be having to drive a few minutes extra to go somewhere else until a new chain takes over the building. If they raise their prices enough to notice I'll just go somewhere cheaper. If GW runs 40k into the ground, like they seem determined to do, I can't replace it.

To answer the OP's question I have found this place much better once I started ignoring individuals that I perceived as "bitchers for the sake of bitching"

So there are a bunch of people who complain, and have legitimate complaints. Then there are those who will do nothing but complain about the same old thing over and over and over again.

"Wahh prices have gone up" If it is not worth the money don't buy it. If it is worth the money buy it. If it is not worth the money and you are still buying it you are an idiot(and worth goes beyond just monetary value) Capitalism 101

Edit: Now if this was something that was essential to your ability to live(or relatively essential), then I would expect complaining while still buying at inflated prices. For example things like Gas, or Internet. Technically most people could get by without them but I know I need them both for my job. So even though it gets expensive I still pay it. Then there are the essentials such as food and water(and until I learn to become a outdoor survivalist, electricity) that also fall into this bubble where you kind of have to pay the price and so can grumble about it. But for luxuries where you have a plethora of options on what you want to buy........YEEEAAAA.

"Wahhh I don't like the way X looks" If it is not worth the money don't buy it, we are in a game that encourages conversion and personalization

"Wahhh when there are rules changes my stuff is not as good as it was before" No gak......

Edit: "Waaahhh The company I don't buy from anymore is doing something I don't like" Well no gak, why would they care what you like? You are no longer a customer/said you are not going to buy anything anymore, thus as far as they are concerned your opinion does not matter.

Edit: "Waaaahhh they new models look like they are designed for kids" .....Have you looked at the setting we are playing in......Look at a second edition book and come talk to me about silly again, they had guys rocking out on guitars

I could go on. When it happens, or heck even a few weeks afterwards it is perfectly reasonable to complain about it then. But after that it gets pretty annoying hearing the same arguments over and over again. Now if it is in a thread dedicated to that? Sure, but when it spills over into everything else is where the problem starts, good or bad.

"What do you think of my Assault Marine?"
"Yea its a pity GW made them such crap, you will never get to use it"
"......But how does it look..."
"You really should have used Vallejo paints GW are too expensive for what you get"
".....But how does it look...."
"You should drop your entire army and get this one because your unit has a 10% less efficiency rate than this one"
".....But I like this army and the way it looks"
"FLUFF BUNNY"

and this is before the GW positive people show up... not an actual conversation that has occurred, but you get the jist.

Edit: For me personally does GW do somethings that I dont like. Sure, but I love the game that they produce so I let it slide. Now if that is not the case for you? No problem, then again I am also working on focusing on the positive side of things, and for me there is plenty of that

PredaKhaine wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
I've only seen the name of Derby, where gaming no longer takes place.

I'd like to add Milton Keynes to that. We asked if we could have a game there and were told a flat no. I think their table is for demo games only.

Barnstaple haven't banned open gaming as such, but you do need to book a table, and open gaming on a Thursday afternoon/evening has been stopped, which I know has effectively taken away some people's chance to game.

Don't play there, but some of my gaming buddies do.

The negative feelings that a portion of the community have were not created in a void, it is merely a reflection back from the former fans who have been negatively treated by a company they have invested countless dollars and hours into.

 Peregrine wrote:


C:SM: already looks disappointing. The big new kit looks stupid, the restrictions on mixing chapters/characters ruins existing armies, and there isn't really anything to get excited about.

In your minority, obviously predetermined opinion, you forget Ive been reading your posts for 2 years, how can you expect me to take you seriously?

For every person like you, there seems to be plenty more saying "I want to buy X" and "I am looking forward to playing (insert chapter) again.

The point is, something like "do the models look good?" is a silly question, because it is subjective. I personally think the Centurions look fething stupid, but there is no right answer, I can't make an "I am right, you are wrong" argument with someone who disagrees about such a thing, its not like arguing about the capital of Poland or the square root of a number.

But the whole point of my post, which you and several (famous for endlessly slating anything and everything GW past the point of logic) others have failed to grasp, is that "they have contributed nothing positive" is flat out ridiculous thing to say, and anybody who is either remotely impartial, or has half a brain, knows it.

If the aim of a wargaming company is to contribute to wargaming, then GW have absolutely and positively done so in the past 12 months. Even if you personally "think" every single model they released in the last year totally sucked (you are entitled to your ridiculous opinion obviously) and all of their books were "stupid" they have released numerous books, models, and games systems in the past year, ergo, they have contributed positively to the market in some way, even if all they achieved was getting a few hundred people to start playing other games systems out of interest, and we both know they didn't, they sell literally millions of dollars worth of product.

I shouldn't even need to explain this gak, I know it, and you know it, but you are fixing for an argument because you don't see sense on the issue.

And I sit squarely with MGS on the issue, I actively dislike GW corporate, I have tried and succeeded to mitigate my spending in the last 2 years as a result, to the point that I bought a Mantic army, and only dropped maybe $100 on GW the last year (one half of DV.) I find their advertising policy ridiculous, their legal trifles laughable, and their CEO obviously has the charisma of a rattlesnake, and YET, I feel the urge to defend them,! Despite my lengthy list of misgivings, because the stupid gak that grown men on this website say, makes me utterly embarrassed to be involved in the wargaming community.

I could understand if the most vitriolic haters were teenagers, but some of you fethers are in your thirties man...