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Most of the hate I see is from the white knights who almost always end up name calling while also throwing around the usual comments of "well don't play then" "vocal minority" "people have been saying gw would die for years and there still here" so on and so forth.

Regardless of how valid or well structured the concerns raised are you will immediately get one of the usual suspects charging in, ironically enough there are a number of good examples of this in this very thread.

Basicly while i agree there are some overly negative posts the fact is that any remotely critical post, will receive a response from one of the usual suspects telling them they are wrong in a condescending and confrontational manner.

Could we not go into this 'usual suspects' thing. Its quite as condescending and confrontational to call out that people are wrong in this way as it is to just call out their names and say. THESE. THESE PEOPLES. Its like were having stealth flame wars because when we actually point the finger its bad. Having a discussion where the majority of your point is attacking other peoples character instead of the points they make helps no one right?

xruslanx wrote:

The problem is that most posts that "bash" GW are, while emotive and apparently structured as sensible, reasoned arguments, actually rather void.

Perhaps based on the presumptions you make going into evaluating them, but I think you just described your posts more than those of anyone else.

*Decline in quality of recent releases. Completely subjective and honestly, complete bs.

Right here is a good example. Just think for a second about how something can be completely subjective and complete bs at the same time. If it is completely subjective then it, by definition, cannot be complete bs, just something you see differently. It can't possibly be completely bs or completely true if it is completely subjective. That makes no sense.

*Tinfoil conspiracy theories, ... GW make money by making models and books for £x, then selling them for £x + margin.

And here. This is what every business on the planet does. They produce it for one price and sell it for a higher price with the difference being profit. But point out that production cost + margin = price and that counts as "tinfoil conspiracy theories"? This is literally how 100% of all profitable companies selling goods or services operate. They make something or offer a service that costs them £x and then charge £x + margin. It is mathematically impossible for a company not to do this and still be profitable.

*complaining about amateurish quality of GW's ruleset, often exagerated to claims like "GW cannot write the rules for wargames", or "this simply was not playtested". Yes their rules are not perfect, but they are clearly playable. I think it reeks of jealousy that a game they hate is still by far the most popular in the world.

And now you write off differing opinions as being based out of jealousy? Also, you didn't even address what criteria could be used in evaluating a rules set. People who find some problems with 40k due so because they have specific criteria that the rules fail to meet while other rules sets do. What do you have? Just mindless dismissal of any opinion you don't like.

*Impending doom of GW. People have been saying that GW is doomed for years, but recently they've been phrasing it in such a way that even if GW post growth/profit, it still fits into their narrative of GW declining.

No. Just no. In the last thread about their financial statements there was literally one person that predicted doom for GW. And that was talking about potential doom at some far away, undefined point. Even past prognosticators of doom admitted that GW isn't going anywhere any time soon.

*Price whinging. If you don't like it, don't buy it. There, that was hard.

You've already written off any conversation about value for money as "whining" in advance. Strikes me as intellectually dishonest.

The only vacuous arguments going on are yours, I'm afraid. You're intentionally misrepresenting what people are saying, ascribing motivations like jealousy with no evidence and preemptively dismissing everything people might raise as being invalid.

How does one argue they care less than they used to about GW models?

It is like breaking faith and being a hater.

It is difficult to explain in a logical fashion.

SM release and I want a codex... I like how the anti air rhino looks, everything else is ok ... Sorta. If I was to update my army with new stuff it is still around $300.

No.

Getting a codex and maybe a fancy rhino and that be it for now.
Least I have spent on a SM release even with the price increases.

*Impending doom of GW. People have been saying that GW is doomed for years, but recently they've been phrasing it in such a way that even if GW post growth/profit, it still fits into their narrative of GW declining.

You realize that it's possible to be doomed while still making a profit, right? Let's look at an extreme example. Say I run a business, and at the beginning of the year I fire all of my manufacturing employees and sell all of the machines. But since I have stock left in the warehouse I can continue to sell my product for a while longer, and I'll even get amazing profit margins because I'm no longer paying all of those people I fired. At the end of the year my company reports a profit, possibly even "growth" in profit from the previous year. But my company is obviously doomed once my remaining inventory runs out.

Now, obviously GW isn't doing anything that extreme but they are still sacrificing the future to make the next financial report look better. They're relying on unsustainable price increases and cost cutting to improve profits while losing sales volume and market share. Meanwhile they're doing little or nothing to generate new sales and relying on their inherited position as the industry leader to keep people buying. Thanks to that position they will likely continue to make a profit in the near future, but the long-term future for GW does not look good.

NickOnwezen wrote:
Could we not go into this 'usual suspects' thing. Its quite as condescending and confrontational to call out that people are wrong in this way as it is to just call out their names and say. THESE. THESE PEOPLES. Its like were having stealth flame wars because when we actually point the finger its bad. Having a discussion where the majority of your point is attacking other peoples character instead of the points they make helps no one right?

This. Labelling people as 'white knights' or 'fanboys' is no more useful than labelling then as 'haters'.

I'll always have a soft spot for GW for releasing the Mordheim rules for free.

SeanDrake wrote:
Most of the hate I see is from the white knights who almost always end up name calling while also throwing around the usual comments of "well don't play then" "vocal minority" "people have been saying gw would die for years and there still here" so on and so forth.

Regardless of how valid or well structured the concerns raised are you will immediately get one of the usual suspects charging in, ironically enough there are a number of good examples of this in this very thread.

Basicly while i agree there are some overly negative posts the fact is that any remotely critical post, will receive a response from one of the usual suspects telling them they are wrong in a condescending and confrontational manner.

Yup ain't that the truth. Some of them are so close of me to place an ignore on them. But I would lose the humor I get seeing these apoligists go into action.

Its the internet, so there's always going to be argument for the sake of argument. Also keep in mind that hypocrisy is the name of the game on the interwebz. How many times have we seen posts from "haters" complaining about how expensive the hobby is, but their sig contains 5 or 6 different armies at 3000+ points each?

Or the flip side, a "white knight" poster in one thread turning into a "hater" when an army they don't play (or often play against) gets a new release or favorable FAQ before their personal favorite?


Just try to take it all in stride, and filter out what subjects you want to read (if you are wanting a more pro-GW slant, don't open a thread labeled "MY HAT FOR GW KNOW NO LIMIT")

Is it just me, or had the last couple of pages just been the same arguments back and forth, back and forth? White knights, haters, criticism, fan-boi, neckbeards... Don't like it don't buy it, prices too high, I hate the aesthetic, I live the aesthetic, evil corporations- it would be nice to see some new suggestions for a positive forum, or more explanations for why certain forums are more positive than others- such as the painting sub-forum, or 40k background.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Is it just me, or had the last couple of pages just been the same arguments back and forth, back and forth? White knights, haters, criticism, fan-boi, neckbeards... Don't like it don't buy it, prices too high, I hate the aesthetic, I live the aesthetic, evil corporations- it would be nice to see some new suggestions for a positive forum, or more explanations for why certain forums are more positive than others- such as the painting sub-forum, or 40k background.

Forums for painting and 40K background are more favorable because they are usually populated primarily by hobbyists who don't care about prices, competitive rule-sets, or GW's marketing strategy. They just want nice minis, cool stories, and a fun game.

I dislike Subway because I once bought a sandwich there.

VorpalBunny74 wrote:I'll always have a soft spot for GW for releasing the Mordheim rules for free.

Where on GW's site can I find these?

Sinful Hero wrote:it would be nice to see some new suggestions for a positive forum, or more explanations for why certain forums are more positive than others- such as the painting sub-forum, or 40k background.

In the Dakka Discussions and News & Rumors it is on topic to express your evaluation of a given news release or facet of the hobby. Just look where this thread is. It's in the Dakka Discussions section. You can think of this forum as the holding tank for the negative threads if you don't like them, or as the appropriate on topic location for them if you do want to participate in them. And in News & Rumours, it's appropriate to comment on what you think about the new release, whether if you love it or find it disappointing.

I hope it stays this way. I don't want to see someone start a thread in the Showcase forum where they post pictures of their finished models and see comments about anything other than the hobby side of things, for example. I like that it's on topic here in Dakka Discussions and off topic elsewhere on the forums.

So my suggestions for a positive forum? Stop trying to control what other people discuss. Stay on topic. Don't click on threads you aren't interested in or can't understand why other people are interested in them.

If you meant "positive" to mean never expressing any disappointment or criticism about anything, then I have no suggestions for that because I don't want to control what other people choose to talk about here on Dakka Dakka.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I dislike Subway because I once bought a sandwich there.

I happen to like subway a great deal.

I declare you anathema.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
it would be nice to see some new suggestions for a positive forum, or more explanations for why certain forums are more positive than others- such as the painting sub-forum, or 40k background.

 insaniak wrote:
So to return to the original topic a little, here's the thing:

You want a more positive forum? The answer is simple: Be Positive.

You won't create a more positive forum by telling those with negative opinions that they should just shut up and go find another hobby, or by belittling their opinion and passing it off as 'neckbeard rage' or 'internet hysteria'. That just gets people's backs up and gets them even more firmly entrenched in their positions.

A forum's tone is set by the people in it, and by the posts they make. A forum doesn't just make itself. It is born from the efforts and opinions of those who choose to be a part of the community.

So if you want a place to discuss your hobby in a positive atmosphere, you need to create that positive atmosphere. Post batreps, post pictures of your models, talk about scenario ideas, point out those things that make you happy to participate in the hobby.

And accept that not everyone will share your opinion. Fighting negativity with negativity, regardless of what physics may tell you, doesn't create a positive environment. It creates an environment where everyone is bickering with everyone else for having the temerity to hold a differing opinion.

Be a positive influence, participate in positive threads, and remind everyone about the positive in their hobby. You can't make the negative go away... but you can drown it out.

I'm not replying to four different posters. I give up, the lucid logic of your arguments have left me stumped for words. Guess I'll go paint some of those crappy models.

xruslanx wrote:
I'm not replying to four different posters. I give up, the lucid logic of your arguments have left me stumped for words. Guess I'll go paint some of those crappy models.

This pretty much translates as;

"I'm not replying to four different posters. My point has been countered several times and I no longer wish to continue in a debate. I will make a spiteful jab at the arguments made with a post concerning the quality of models."

 Imposter101 wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
I'm not replying to four different posters. I give up, the lucid logic of your arguments have left me stumped for words. Guess I'll go paint some of those crappy models.

This pretty much translates as;

"I'm not replying to four different posters. My point has been countered several times and I no longer wish to continue in a debate. I will make a spiteful jab at the arguments made with a post concerning the quality of models."

Lol. Yeah, that's how I'd read it!

xruslanx wrote:
I'm not replying to four different posters. I give up, the lucid logic of your arguments have left me stumped for words. Guess I'll go paint some of those crappy models.

Pretty much everything you posted was a misrepresentation of the positions of others and people called you on it. If you don't want that to happen, don't intentionally misrepresent the positions of others.

 Imposter101 wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
I'm not replying to four different posters. I give up, the lucid logic of your arguments have left me stumped for words. Guess I'll go paint some of those crappy models.

This pretty much translates as;

"I'm not replying to four different posters. My point has been countered several times and I no longer wish to continue in a debate. I will make a spiteful jab at the arguments made with a post concerning the quality of models."

As much as you'd like to think so, no.

Not really.

 frozenwastes wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
I'm not replying to four different posters. I give up, the lucid logic of your arguments have left me stumped for words. Guess I'll go paint some of those crappy models.

Pretty much everything you posted was a misrepresentation of the positions of others and people called you on it. If you don't want that to happen, don't intentionally misrepresent the positions of others.

I've been on enough internet forums to know that the beardiest member always has the last word. If you can't see the irony in enthusiastically and relentlessly attacking someone who suggests that people are being over-emotional and taking things too seriously, then it sucks to be you. And I just know you'll reply to this too...

It's interesting how it's always the other guy who is being unreasonable by trying to get the last word.

Meanwhile, this thread has more than run is course, so I think we're done here.