Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 wtwlf123 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Then you're missing out. 4 twin-linked multi-meltas + a Sgt with Combi-melta in a drop pod means a lot of vehicles are going to have a very bad day.

Except for the very important detail about how they must Snap Fire on the turn they arrive, and so probably won't blow up anything. Then they stand there and die. This only works with Logan for Relentless, and even at that, it is a waste of Logan's abilities.

Ultramarines CT can make them Relentless the turn they land now. It's still a 1-trick pony, but it works, and you get the relentless part without expending any more points.

Doesn't the CT say that you only get relentless if you are not disembarking out of a transport?

 wtwlf123 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Then you're missing out. 4 twin-linked multi-meltas + a Sgt with Combi-melta in a drop pod means a lot of vehicles are going to have a very bad day.

Except for the very important detail about how they must Snap Fire on the turn they arrive, and so probably won't blow up anything. Then they stand there and die. This only works with Logan for Relentless, and even at that, it is a waste of Logan's abilities.

Ultramarines CT can make them Relentless the turn they land now. It's still a 1-trick pony, but it works, and you get the relentless part without expending any more points.

As far as I saw the whole conversation was about Salamander armies. Plus, didn't the rumours say that the Doctrines don't effect units that just came on from reserves?

 Shadox wrote:
Doesn't the CT say that you only get relentless if you are not disembarking out of a transport?

Ha, yes it does. How sad for them. :(

As long as they didnt disembark from a transport.

Still a multi-melta on its own is not as useful, however if you have a 10 man squad(if you twin link with vulkan) Snap shot multi melta has a decent(although low) chance to hit on the deep strike. Combined with a combi melta and a meltagun this could be a pretty decent alpha strike. Even snapfiring on the first turn, if there are multiple units some of them will survive so it will be very interesting to see how many of them survive the initial drop.

Still I would rather have bikes for this role, depending on how exactly units/characters can be equipped. GAAHHH too many variables that are not 100% known for sure to really make a solid tactical analysis.....Still I look forward to trying my sternguard in a more anti infantry role instead of combi weapon delivery systems. Save 90 points across the board in just guys, that is before anything else......Seriously Hvy flamers going down 10 points and that sweet, SWEET set of arms......

Where did it say that HF were going down 10 points for Sternguard?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Then you're missing out. 4 twin-linked multi-meltas + a Sgt with Combi-melta in a drop pod means a lot of vehicles are going to have a very bad day.

Except for the very important detail about how they must Snap Fire on the turn they arrive, and so probably won't blow up anything. Then they stand there and die. This only works with Logan for Relentless, and even at that, it is a waste of Logan's abilities.

Salamanders w/ Vulcan: 4 twin-linked snap shots means you have a good chance of getting off at least one hit, ignoring the Combi-melta sgt of course. And as we all know, when your melta weapons are in melta range, one shot it all you need.

DogofWar1 wrote:See, this is what I don't understand, what's the problem with playing the best list you can?

If it's a legal list, and it's played legally, then what's the problem, other than you don't like it? Again, GW put Heldrakes in the new codex, they knew that some people were going to run tripledrake lists. I won't say that every unit and rule that GW puts in a codex is fit to print, but attacking other players for using what's available to them is not ok. It's basically saying that people should gimp their lists so that they don't offend sentiments, despite the fact that when the models hit the table to goal is to win.

If you want to play more cinematic lists, that's fine, and I would never want anyone to stop playing a fluffy list, and equally I wouldn't ask someone to stop playing the best list they can think up. The game should be about accommodating all types, the painters, the fluff buffs, and the wargamers. Admittedly, the wargamers probably have an edge on the painters and fluff-centric players on the tabletop since they spend more of their 40k energy on trying to win, but that's fine. That's how someone wants to play the game, and so long as it's legal, they shouldn't be attacked for playing that way.

If a stupid sloppy rule oversight allowed someone to bring brass knuckles instead of boxing gloves into a boxing match/tournament, would that be fine? Stupid comparison, you say? Yes, but stuff like Heldrakes are the brass knuckle boxers of 40k and deserve a stupid comparison. Yes, they're legal and allowed and official, but that doesn't make them any less ed up. I have a single Heldrake that I bought last year prior to the full- FAQ update, but I'm not sure I'll ever actually even assemble it - thinking of selling it, in fact - because it's just that stupid and I'd be embarrassed to even use the one. I wouldn't have fun with it AT ALL because I'd know it's nothing to do with me that it's clearing the damn table all on its own while the rest of my models are line-dancing while singing "Kumbaya My Chaos Lord". It's nothing but a stupid crutch.

Would I refuse to play a triple Heldrake list in a tournament? No. I've actually played against at least double Heldrakes in a tournament - can't remember if there was a third. Bring them in a "friendly" game? Friendly, that ain't. I might play you, but that'd likely be the last time at least without prior agreement that I'll be bringing my AA-focused list with LRs and a Skyshield Landing pad (to hide in) to match it. Not that it'd necessarily even help - because a fun fact, in a big Apoc match earlier this year - I think it was 20k per side, and it took nearly all of our shooting to bring down "only" three Heldrakes in one turn. Of the units that could have even a remote chance of hurting them and were in range, basically all of them shot at them, including 2-3 of my own flyers and another player's Storm Raven, and my Quad Gun. It took probably at least around 5k worth of shooting to bring down 510 points worth of Heldrakes. Good times. Obviously they CAN die easier at times (in a tournament my quad gun Intercepted a drake right out of the sky, thanks to tank hunting BT terminators), but even so they are simply no fun to use, nor play against. And why play if it's not fun?

Obviously this isn't limited to JUST Heldrakes, but they are definitely the most prominent single unit that simply sucks the fun out of the game.

wtwlf123 wrote:That's precisely why they're good. It creates a 24" bubble your opponent doesn't want to move armor into. Zoning out the locations of your opponent's army is precisely what a midrange gunline army wants to do, especially with objective-based victory conditions. It seems like you're simply inexperienced with winning C:SM tactics.

No, I'm just experienced on how fast that squad can die if the enemy wants to get there, and therefore how little that immobile 12" danger zone would matter. At least the lascannons are more likely to get to shoot at their full effectiveness before dying. Of course it depends on the opposing army just how fast they'd get wiped out, but some armies can really do it in a hurry.

If I wanted an actual multi-melta area denial threat, I'd probably use the MM attack bikes or put twin-MM Land Speeders behind a building or other LoS-blocking terrain (assuming it was present), and from where they could then pop up and wreck stuff if suitable targets got close. After all, for bikes and speeders the effective melta threat range is 24", not just 12".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Salamanders w/ Vulcan: 4 twin-linked snap shots means you have a good chance of getting off at least one hit, ignoring the Combi-melta sgt of course. And as we all know, when your melta weapons are in melta range, one shot it all you need.

Tell that to the 5 sub-12" multi-melta hits in a single game against a LR of which none even glanced.

Locally meltas don't get much respect in general, because either they don't hit (with which twin-linked would of course help), or roll snake eyes on their pen rolls. You'd be amazed at the consistency of these things occurring. Another good example is one recent game where an enemy LRC shot at my Vindicator's side armor with MM and the TLAC. Of course the MM did nothing, and the TLAC did the killing. This was then repeated the next turn against my own LRC, where the MM again missed and then the TLAC rended my 4 HP LRC.

 tvih wrote:
No, I'm just experienced on how fast that squad can die if the enemy wants to get there, and therefore how little that immobile 12" danger zone would matter. At least the lascannons are more likely to get to shoot at their full effectiveness before dying. Of course it depends on the opposing army just how fast they'd get wiped out, but some armies can really do it in a hurry.

10 Tac Marines are relatively resilient midfield units. There are of course things in this game that can remove them, but I'd hesitate in assuming that my opponent could quickly wipe the entire squad off the table like they were nothing.

 tvih wrote:
If I wanted an actual multi-melta area denial threat, I'd probably use the MM attack bikes or put twin-MM Land Speeders behind a building or other LoS-blocking terrain (assuming it was present), and from where they could then pop up and wreck stuff if suitable targets got close. After all, for bikes and speeders the effective melta threat range is 24", not just 12".

I understand that the other units do that too, but you're already going to be having Tac squads in the center of the map grabbing objectives anyways; might as well throw on the anti-armor area denial heavy weapon upgrade considering how cheap it is. It's an added benefit to a squad that's already going to be denying area as it is. Best to give them all the tools they need to do it effectively.

 tvih wrote:
Locally meltas don't get much respect in general, because either they don't hit (with which twin-linked would of course help), or roll snake eyes on their pen rolls. You'd be amazed at the consistency of these things occurring.

Um... so you think they're bad because of the poor rolls in your metagame? Everything makes so much more sense now. If you're going to base your opinion on mathematical improbabilities and local anecdotal experience ("people at my FLGS throw 1s with their meltaguns ...so they're bad!"), you should just say so up front and save everyone from taking your posts seriously.

..........

When all each race gets an updated codex, the flying turkey list will not be the bees knees. I took out a two turkey list the turn they arrived in my Vulcan list - two multi melta shots on one and a combi melta on the other. They are not unstoppable. I think with the new AA tanks for marines, you're going to start seeing less reliance on flyers.

Maybe with the new guard codex each of your artillery battalions will have hydra add ons like Epic 40k used to do. You will see anti fyer spam all over soon.

I like the brass knuckles in a boxing glove reference! Good one. The point I was trying to make was that GW has made a very concious decision to move away from tournament/competitive play. So, sure you can run 3 Heldrakes, but you will look like a total douche bag. Some players don't care and that's fine. I know I will only ever play them once. I have Chaos Marines and I will only ever run 1 Heldrake. I guess it depends on your local meta. Also, at 1500pts (which is the standard around here) it's hard to make a list with a ton of cheese. But it can be done. One guy around here ran 'Cron Air allied with Chaos Marines and that list included a Heldrake. He even took it to a local tournament. Needless to say, he didn't make any friends and didn't place well overall, as things like army comp and sportsmanship were factored into your final score. I guess it boils down to what you want to do. It's your hobby, enjoy it. Just don't be "that guy"...

Nocturnus wrote:
I like the brass knuckles in a boxing glove reference! Good one. The point I was trying to make was that GW has made a very concious decision to move away from tournament/competitive play. So, sure you can run 3 Heldrakes, but you will look like a total douche bag. Some players don't care and that's fine. I know I will only ever play them once. I have Chaos Marines and I will only ever run 1 Heldrake. I guess it depends on your local meta. Also, at 1500pts (which is the standard around here) it's hard to make a list with a ton of cheese. But it can be done. One guy around here ran 'Cron Air allied with Chaos Marines and that list included a Heldrake. He even took it to a local tournament. Needless to say, he didn't make any friends and didn't place well overall, as things like army comp and sportsmanship were factored into your final score. I guess it boils down to what you want to do. It's your hobby, enjoy it. Just don't be "that guy"...

1500pts, Army Comp and Sportsmanship is where it is at IMHO, and I agree with the rest of your comment.

 tvih wrote:
Multi-melta, on infantry? I never see that actually being used. And no wonder, it's not like tanks will just come to you for your to shoot them with one.

You combat squad a unit and have them run up into cover where the enemy will have to pass by. The combat squad is a small distraction they have to choose to deal with, or not deal with. MM will deter almost all armor from going that route. Land raiders might be the only thing that will go by because they are delivering a payload. I use them all the time in my SM lists with or without Vulcan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nocturnus wrote:
I like the brass knuckles in a boxing glove reference! Good one. The point I was trying to make was that GW has made a very concious decision to move away from tournament/competitive play. So, sure you can run 3 Heldrakes, but you will look like a total douche bag. Some players don't care and that's fine. I know I will only ever play them once. I have Chaos Marines and I will only ever run 1 Heldrake. I guess it depends on your local meta. Also, at 1500pts (which is the standard around here) it's hard to make a list with a ton of cheese. But it can be done. One guy around here ran 'Cron Air allied with Chaos Marines and that list included a Heldrake. He even took it to a local tournament. Needless to say, he didn't make any friends and didn't place well overall, as things like army comp and sportsmanship were factored into your final score. I guess it boils down to what you want to do. It's your hobby, enjoy it. Just don't be "that guy"...

My meta plays a lot of objective based games so you generally have to have a lot of infantry to take them. You can table me but with no troops on the objectives you don't meet the primary victory conditions on the scenario so you won't get full battle points. If I kill all of your troops, the best you can do is deny me the objectives. They are half of your battle points so they are very important. Then again, this is my meta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So just to ask for buying assistance one last time...

I surveyed the local community which TENDS to only play 1500pt games.

I now own 30 total Tactical Marines, but only 10 are assembled meaning I now have a bunch of choices/options involved.

If I want to add a little more to my collection, should I buy...

- A new Sternguard Veterans squad, and then ten of my unassembled Tacticals, to make a bunch of guys with all kinds of heavy/speciality weapons?

- I could buy ANOTHER box of Tacticals and a Sternguard box, and do the same.

- I could buy Devastators and do either of the above but with them.

- I could buy no more units, and instead add a vehicle, flyer, etc....

Again, i've never built a list and am just not learning the game and embarking on the whole thing. I own the contents of a Black Reach starter, the new 6th Ed. Strike Force, and a copy of Space Hulk 3rd Ed meaning... i've got 30 tacticals, 5 regular terminators, a mountain of fancy terminators from Space Hulk, a Dreadnaught, a Venerable Dreadnaught, two Captains, a Command Squad, a Razorback, and a Drop-pod.

It all depends on your play style. From the sound of it though, I would go for the Sternguard and Devastators. Sounds like you want to get up close for a fire fight. Try out the salamanders or Imperial Fists and see if you like them. they are your typical up close but not too personal marine forces.

You have 10 unassembled marines combined with 10 more new ones and tons of bits. Go for making a cool sergeant with a combi weapon for your tactical squad, make several heavy weapons (some 5-6 if possible), make the stern guards, and the rest make them up as more Sternguard (try to make them 7-8 models if possible). Heck make some of the remaining guys bolsters for a full 10 man dev squad so you can combat squad them.

DogofWar1 wrote:See, this is what I don't understand, what's the problem with playing the best list you can?

If it's a legal list, and it's played legally, then what's the problem, other than you don't like it? Again, GW put Heldrakes in the new codex, they knew that some people were going to run tripledrake lists. I won't say that every unit and rule that GW puts in a codex is fit to print, but attacking other players for using what's available to them is not ok. It's basically saying that people should gimp their lists so that they don't offend sentiments, despite the fact that when the models hit the table to goal is to win.
.

I keep hearing about Heldrake BS, but playing my son who has one, I haven't seen anything in game yet that makes them a must-take. Can someone explain to me why they've gained such a bad reputation, as I'm just not seeing it?

 tvih wrote:

If a stupid sloppy rule oversight allowed someone to bring brass knuckles instead of boxing gloves into a boxing match/tournament, would that be fine? Stupid comparison, you say? Yes, but stuff like Heldrakes are the brass knuckle boxers of 40k and deserve a stupid comparison. Yes, they're legal and allowed and official, but that doesn't make them any less ed up. I have a single Heldrake that I bought last year prior to the full- FAQ update, but I'm not sure I'll ever actually even assemble it - thinking of selling it, in fact - because it's just that stupid and I'd be embarrassed to even use the one. I wouldn't have fun with it AT ALL because I'd know it's nothing to do with me that it's clearing the damn table all on its own while the rest of my models are line-dancing while singing "Kumbaya My Chaos Lord". It's nothing but a stupid crutch.

Would I refuse to play a triple Heldrake list in a tournament? No. I've actually played against at least double Heldrakes in a tournament - can't remember if there was a third. Bring them in a "friendly" game? Friendly, that ain't. I might play you, but that'd likely be the last time at least without prior agreement that I'll be bringing my AA-focused list with LRs and a Skyshield Landing pad (to hide in) to match it. Not that it'd necessarily even help - because a fun fact, in a big Apoc match earlier this year - I think it was 20k per side, and it took nearly all of our shooting to bring down "only" three Heldrakes in one turn. Of the units that could have even a remote chance of hurting them and were in range, basically all of them shot at them, including 2-3 of my own flyers and another player's Storm Raven, and my Quad Gun. It took probably at least around 5k worth of shooting to bring down 510 points worth of Heldrakes. Good times. Obviously they CAN die easier at times (in a tournament my quad gun Intercepted a drake right out of the sky, thanks to tank hunting BT terminators), but even so they are simply no fun to use, nor play against. And why play if it's not fun?

Obviously this isn't limited to JUST Heldrakes, but they are definitely the most prominent single unit that simply sucks the fun out of the game.

This is some next level saltiness right here.

Stormonu wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:See, this is what I don't understand, what's the problem with playing the best list you can?

If it's a legal list, and it's played legally, then what's the problem, other than you don't like it? Again, GW put Heldrakes in the new codex, they knew that some people were going to run tripledrake lists. I won't say that every unit and rule that GW puts in a codex is fit to print, but attacking other players for using what's available to them is not ok. It's basically saying that people should gimp their lists so that they don't offend sentiments, despite the fact that when the models hit the table to goal is to win.
.

I keep hearing about Heldrake BS, but playing my son who has one, I haven't seen anything in game yet that makes them a must-take. Can someone explain to me why they've gained such a bad reputation, as I'm just not seeing it?

They were fine until the FAQ gave them 360 line of sight. So basically they can strike anyone anywhere on the turn they show up. Even units behind them that they just vector striked. So on and so forth. It used to be that you could close with the table and get some measure of defense, or other tactics.

Also multiple ones invalidate a lot of army builds, like bikers.

However A skill I need to learn is to practice placement to minimize the number that get hit. So for example front loading the squad since the template needs to be further back.

But on the same token they are practically worthless against most hordes and Armor 2+ so there is that trade off, as well as not being good against other fliers.

 wtwlf123 wrote:
Um... so you think they're bad because of the poor rolls in your metagame? Everything makes so much more sense now. If you're going to base your opinion on mathematical improbabilities and local anecdotal experience ("people at my FLGS throw 1s with their meltaguns ...so they're bad!"), you should just say so up front and save everyone from taking your posts seriously.

That just about covers it.

But since we're sharing anecdotal experiences here, in my last two full-points games, my alpha-strike Meltagunner whiffed and my alpha-strike Multi-Melta Marine not only pulled off snap shots but cratered the assigned alpha-strike targets. (To add to the Meltagunner's shame, he missed a Rhino at two inches in a recent Kill Team game. He did manage to pop the Rhino on the following turn, but only after it had dislodged its cargo of Noise Marines. Now that I think about it, in my last five games, the poor guy has only racked up three kills: an empty Rhino, a genestealer, and a guardsman! I think I need to add a purity seal to his Meltagun or something.)

Stormonu wrote:

I keep hearing about Heldrake BS, but playing my son who has one, I haven't seen anything in game yet that makes them a must-take. Can someone explain to me why they've gained such a bad reputation, as I'm just not seeing it?

Like others said, the 360 degree thing was pretty helpful. The S6 AP3 torrent flamer basically made murdering MEQs on down a piece of cake, and the combination of 3HP, 12AV, and IWND makes them nasty on the tabletop. The fact they have to come in from reserves does make them a little weaker in that if you're unlucky with your reserve rolls it might come in too late to do much. Also, it's not so much a single Heldrake that's a problem, but when you bring 2-3 of them. One AP3 flamer means you can probably shred about half of a unit a given turn, so over 3-4 turns you might kill a couple units and do some damage, but with 2-3 of them you can pretty much scour the board of infantry.

 tvih wrote:

Obviously this isn't limited to JUST Heldrakes, but they are definitely the most prominent single unit that simply sucks the fun out of the game.

I can definitely see it sucking the fun out of things for some people, but personally, I enjoy them flying around. It's a challenge. Sure, I got kicked squarely in the teeth when I started back up and my 5th ed SW list got steamrolled, what with my Long Fangs turning out to be pretty much useless, but it forced me back to the drawing board.

I love working through army lists, and squeezing every molecule of power out of a list, and the Heldrake made me go back to the drawing board real fast. Trying to keep a TAC list while planning for Heldrakes can be tough, but that makes it fun. If I lose again it means I didn't adjust enough. If I beat Heldrakes and lose badly to something else, it means I over-corrected. Same thing with Riptides, Valkyries, Necron Flyers, etc., pretty much anything that is the new hotness.

For me, that's fun. I'm personally really looking forward to getting my tank hunter IF on the table and playing chicken with some Helldrakes. That, or an IH IWND Stormraven, a little payback.

If it's not fun for you, that's fine. In a casual environment no one is forced to play anyone. I'll gladly play the Heldrake kid, it makes getting a win all the more satisfying. If all his troops want to stand around singing in a circle, all the better, I have some circle shaped pie plates that should fit nicely over them.

To each their own, I just don't like people getting shunned for playing legal lists.

Back on topic, down to 75 for Raven Guard, 100 for Iron Hands, and 150 for White Scars.

Someone had the theory that they'd put out the supplements based on how quickly LEs sold out. I hope that's not the case, since wasn't White Scars supposed to be first down the pipe, while they're currently last in the sales? I want some more special characters and units for them. Also, if IH gets delayed because of poor sales, that would be a shame, though I imagine GW would delay them just fine without any sales reasoning.

It's almost as if GW should consider looking at the heldrake and fixing it via the FAQ...maybe even by simply deleting that paragraph from the FAQ that gave it 360 degree line of sight to begin with. Perhaps the community at large could start putting the pressure on GW to change it because it's killing the game for them and making them want to spend less money?

Nah, better just resort to social engineering/bullying to create an environment I want to play in. There's no other way.

 Sidstyler wrote:
It's almost as if GW should consider looking at the heldrake and fixing it via the FAQ...maybe even by simply deleting that paragraph from the FAQ that gave it 360 degree line of sight to begin with. Perhaps the community at large could start putting the pressure on GW to change it because it's killing the game for them and making them want to spend less money?

Nah, better just resort to social engineering/bullying to create an environment I want to play in. There's no other way.

Thanks for that Sid, I was actually getting into the mood to get involved with this discussion, but not only did your post nearly make me fall out of my chair with laughter, it's also reminded me just how futile and pointless it is to try discussing sportsmanship and enjoyment of the game beyond self-gratification with people who have absolutely no concept of such ideas.

Bullying....

Am I the only person who doesn't have a problem vs Heldrake Spam?

I've faced it nine times and won nine times with my Orks and twice with my Deathwing.

If you want to get away from those fire breathing death budgies, get into cc. They can't get you in cc.

Drake spam is not unbeatable, you just have to find a way to play around it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic...

This codex is looking to be very versatile. Marines have an answer to everything, it seems.

Puscifer wrote:
Am I the only person who doesn't have a problem vs Heldrake Spam?

I've faced it nine times and won nine times with my Orks and twice with my Deathwing.

If you want to get away from those fire breathing death budgies, get into cc. They can't get you in cc.

Drake spam is not unbeatable, you just have to find a way to play around it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic...

This codex is looking to be very versatile. Marines have an answer to everything, it seems.

So what you're saying is that you have no issues beating a list designed to slaughter 3+ save MEQ armies using a horde army and a 2+ save TEQ army? So, essentially, when you say "you have to find a way around it" what you mean is "play a different army", gotcha

 Yodhrin wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Am I the only person who doesn't have a problem vs Heldrake Spam?

I've faced it nine times and won nine times with my Orks and twice with my Deathwing.

If you want to get away from those fire breathing death budgies, get into cc. They can't get you in cc.

Drake spam is not unbeatable, you just have to find a way to play around it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic...

This codex is looking to be very versatile. Marines have an answer to everything, it seems.

So what you're saying is that you have no issues beating a list designed to slaughter 3+ save MEQ armies using a horde army and a 2+ save TEQ army? So, essentially, when you say "you have to find a way around it" what you mean is "play a different army", gotcha

Thank you for replying before I got to, and in a calm, civilized manner. I was about to tear him a new one

So do dreads get IH chapter tactics. I'm reading conflicting reports

 Yodhrin wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Am I the only person who doesn't have a problem vs Heldrake Spam?

I've faced it nine times and won nine times with my Orks and twice with my Deathwing.

If you want to get away from those fire breathing death budgies, get into cc. They can't get you in cc.

Drake spam is not unbeatable, you just have to find a way to play around it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic...

This codex is looking to be very versatile. Marines have an answer to everything, it seems.

So what you're saying is that you have no issues beating a list designed to slaughter 3+ save MEQ armies using a horde army and a 2+ save TEQ army? So, essentially, when you say "you have to find a way around it" what you mean is "play a different army", gotcha

Not in the slightest.

I play a Trukk Rush army and it isn't anywhere near a horde. 4 squads of ten in Trukks, large unit of Biker Nobs with Warboss and squads of troop choice bikers, a Warboss on bike and Gutsmek.

I haven't played a Marine army since... 4th I think... And now I'm branching back into a MEQ, there are ways, pre new codex, to beat them.

Stormtalon and Stormraven for unit choices are a start. Putting your MEQ in transports is another. You know, shielding them from those Drakes? Rifleman Dreads are pretty good for taking out flyers. That many shots and rerolls help.

As for tactics, I take this from our local tournament guru... Rush the enemy lines to avoid the fire from Drakes. He plays Blood Angels and he has no problem vs the spam. He uses multiple units in transports and combines that with DOA. The Vanguard tie up the ground units, while the transports rush in and assault.

Drakes are powerful, but they are not unbeatable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Am I the only person who doesn't have a problem vs Heldrake Spam?

I've faced it nine times and won nine times with my Orks and twice with my Deathwing.

If you want to get away from those fire breathing death budgies, get into cc. They can't get you in cc.

Drake spam is not unbeatable, you just have to find a way to play around it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic...

This codex is looking to be very versatile. Marines have an answer to everything, it seems.

So what you're saying is that you have no issues beating a list designed to slaughter 3+ save MEQ armies using a horde army and a 2+ save TEQ army? So, essentially, when you say "you have to find a way around it" what you mean is "play a different army", gotcha

Thank you for replying before I got to, and in a calm, civilized manner. I was about to tear him a new one

No need for that.

Jamo wrote:
So do dreads get IH chapter tactics. I'm reading conflicting reports

I'm not sure, the rumors as they stand are indeed conflicting.

Looking at the rumor round-up over on talkwargaming http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/codex-space-marines-roll-up-special_29.html#.UiDsIBtJOSo and http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/codex-space-marines-roll-up-special.html#.UiQswhtJOSo
the IH CT states that vehicles and characters have IWND, even though vehicles normally don't have CT.

Thing is, looking at the other rumor roundup, where they go unit by unit, they don't mention CTs for any units except Dreadnoughts, where they say "Does not have chapter tactics" and "No chapter tactics."

I think either:
A) Dreads do get IH CT, and them saying they don't have CT is the same as every other vehicle, they just neglected to mention it for other vehicles
or
B) Dreads are special and do not get IH CT, while other vehicles do.

I don't think we'll get definitive clarification until we can read all the rules.

DogofWar1 wrote:

Jamo wrote:
So do dreads get IH chapter tactics. I'm reading conflicting reports

I'm not sure, the rumors as they stand are indeed conflicting.

Looking at the rumor round-up over on talkwargaming http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/codex-space-marines-roll-up-special_29.html#.UiDsIBtJOSo and http://www.talkwargaming.com/2013/08/codex-space-marines-roll-up-special.html#.UiQswhtJOSo
the IH CT states that vehicles and characters have IWND, even though vehicles normally don't have CT.

Thing is, looking at the other rumor roundup, where they go unit by unit, they don't mention CTs for any units except Dreadnoughts, where they say "Does not have chapter tactics" and "No chapter tactics."

I think either:
A) Dreads do get IH CT, and them saying they don't have CT is the same as every other vehicle, they just neglected to mention it for other vehicles
or
B) Dreads are special and do not get IH CT, while other vehicles do.

I don't think we'll get definitive clarification until we can read all the rules.

I think the IH CT is the exception to the rule where vehicles are effected by CT.

The entries on the vehicles won't mention CTs but the IH rule is a catch all for the IWND rule.

 wtwlf123 wrote:
10 Tac Marines are relatively resilient midfield units. There are of course things in this game that can remove them, but I'd hesitate in assuming that my opponent could quickly wipe the entire squad off the table like they were nothing.

Heldrakes, Tau, IG etc will have no serious problems. Or my LRC-delivered CC units for that matter, especially against a unit placed on the midfield. I don't really have much faith in MEQ resilience these days.

Um... so you think they're bad because of the poor rolls in your metagame? Everything makes so much more sense now. If you're going to base your opinion on mathematical improbabilities and local anecdotal experience ("people at my FLGS throw 1s with their meltaguns ...so they're bad!"), you should just say so up front and save everyone from taking your posts seriously.

No, that's just the icing on the cake, as it were. Can't deny an area with a weapon that the opponents have no "respect" for. And after a ridiculous number of "hey, are you nuts coming so close to my melta?" "hehheh, not really" *rolls a 1 to hit* "right, never mind" scenarios, can't really blame them anymore. The only way to get their attention is to have several mobile melta weapons. Not that even that always works out, as demonstrated by the mathematically improbable examples.

Besides, this is the internet, why would anyone take anyone seriously?

 tvih wrote:

 wtwlf123 wrote:
10 Tac Marines are relatively resilient midfield units. There are of course things in this game that can remove them, but I'd hesitate in assuming that my opponent could quickly wipe the entire squad off the table like they were nothing.

Heldrakes, Tau, IG etc will have no serious problems. Or my LRC-delivered CC units for that matter, especially against a unit placed on the midfield. I don't really have much faith in MEQ resilience these days.

Um... so you think they're bad because of the poor rolls in your metagame? Everything makes so much more sense now. If you're going to base your opinion on mathematical improbabilities and local anecdotal experience ("people at my FLGS throw 1s with their meltaguns ...so they're bad!"), you should just say so up front and save everyone from taking your posts seriously.

No, that's just the icing on the cake, as it were. Can't deny an area with a weapon that the opponents have no "respect" for. And after a ridiculous number of "hey, are you nuts coming so close to my melta?" "hehheh, not really" *rolls a 1 to hit* "right, never mind" scenarios, can't really blame them anymore. The only way to get their attention is to have several mobile melta weapons. Not that even that always works out, as demonstrated by the mathematically improbable examples.

Besides, this is the internet, why would anyone take anyone seriously?

In my meta we are hitting with meltas. And they still suck. Theres no one (except exactly 1 IG player) using vehicles anymore that arent flyers. Thats my local meta and says nothing about yours though.

I.coined the phrase "lone melta syndrome" due to how often they miss land raiders at 1"

 Formosa wrote:
I.coined the phrase "lone melta syndrome" due to how often they miss land raiders at 1"

I can miss a Land Raider at 1" with 3 meltas just as easily as with a lone melta