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Tycho wrote:
So um ... at the risk of not getting involved in pricing complaints ... I noticed on the GW site that the Centurions are in both heavy AND elite slots. Has anyone heard anything on this? Looking at that it almost seems like you could have as many as six squads of them in one army if you filled all three heavy and three elite slots. If the cost of a regular marine falls in line with DA/CSM, you could then fill your remaining points with a horde of cheap MEQ and have what looks to be a pretty shooty army.

The assault versions are elite, the devastator versions are HS. Or so the rumors have lead me to believe. So while you could have 6 squads, only 3 of them would be shooty.

Tycho wrote:
So um ... at the risk of not getting involved in pricing complaints ... I noticed on the GW site that the Centurions are in both heavy AND elite slots. Has anyone heard anything on this? Looking at that it almost seems like you could have as many as six squads of them in one army if you filled all three heavy and three elite slots. If the cost of a regular marine falls in line with DA/CSM, you could then fill your remaining points with a horde of cheap MEQ and have what looks to be a pretty shooty army.

Assault Centurions are Elites and Devastator Centurions are HS. I suppose you could get a pretty nasty group of centurions going with a bunch of Tacticals too, but the cost is going to be pretty high. Like, almost your entire army's points go towards Centurions high.

Assault Centurions are Elites

Devastator Centurions are Heavy Support

So yes, you could have 6 squads of them. 3 each of assault and devastator.

Ah! Thanks! I figured I had missed something obvious. lol
From what I've heard of the assault versions, I can't figure out why you would ever want to take them. Well there goes that list idea!

Tycho wrote:

Assault Centurions are Elites

Devastator Centurions are Heavy Support

So yes, you could have 6 squads of them. 3 each of assault and devastator.

Ah! Thanks! I figured I had missed something obvious. lol
From what I've heard of the assault versions, I can't figure out why you would ever want to take them. Well there goes that list idea!

Well, they are still T5 with 2W and can take a LR as a dedicated transport. The Siegedrills, while ugly, coupled with a LR as a delivery platform could be a good assault unit opposed to TH/SS terminators. The armorbane USR also adds to their assault ability.

While I think the Devastator version will be better, I think they assault ones will still possess some usefulness in dealing with MC's in CC.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Which is fair, but I am trying to take a wider view. You're right, if the sum-total of hypothetical "value" were the painting of the minis, then I absolutely could sit down with a Reaper Miniature KS pledge, and be set for the next year...

That said, there are countless games which I will never get a chance to play, because while I was lured in by "value" and a volume-to-dollar proposition I couldn't resist, I didn't have the presence of mind to realize that "game value" is zero, if I paint those guys and then want to play with them, only to find that no one in 100-miles plays said game. :-p

I don't ever want to be "that guy", but part of WH40k's allure to me as I sit on hundreds and hundreds of unusable minis (many times from AMAZING, but entirely under-appreciate games, mind you), is that I feel like it comes with insurance. When I get my hobby value out of these, then they will have guaranteed game value as well.

Thanks for the follow up.

Yes your points are all solid ones and make a better argument that the way you had stated it before. You can get lots of modelling hobby out of any kinds of gear, but yes if your local gaming paradigm is focsued towards 40k more than other games then yes you will definitely get more bang for your buck. My FLGS doesn't even see much of any GW gaming anymore. It is all Malifaux, Flames of War and Warmachine/Hordes nowadays for mini gaming. Only GW minis that get seen on the table anymore there are with folks using their WFB minis with Mantic's new ruleset and not actual Warhammer rules.

I sold off my entire collection of Darkest Africa and British colonial figures a few years ago because the player based had pretty much dried up and not everyone likes the concept of Colonial battles. So I have definitely been there. Years ago when they released a boxed set for Warzone, I picked it up because it was FULL of infantry minis. After finding not a single person who wanted to play it I converted them all over for use in 40k. Half became an IG army and the other half because a chaos IG/renegades army) so I still got full use out of the minis despite the game itself being a loss.

And like I said, despite my disagreement with your initial point my disagreement really doesn't matter as long as you enjoy the hobby, find it worthwhile to pay the prices things are sold for now, and are content with it. Your hobby and most importantly your money.

Skriker

Well, they are still T5 with 2W and can take a LR as a dedicated transport. The Siegedrills, while ugly, coupled with a LR as a delivery platform could be a good assault unit opposed to TH/SS terminators. The armorbane USR also adds to their assault ability.

While I think the Devastator version will be better, I think they assault ones will still possess some usefulness in dealing with MC's in CC.

Those are all good points. I just get a bad feeling from Slow and Purposeful assault units. Especially ones that are that expensive. Although there is an undeniable "cool factor" with the image of a squad of these being dropped in via Storm Raven or Emerging from a Land Raider ...

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Oh, and as an aside... you don't have to justify your opinions to me either. :-) People take hobby stuff too seriously sometimes, and feel the need to look down on people who don't come to the same conclusions that they do.

I have a friend who loves 40k more than anything, in any hobby, and his entirely collection is "counts as" from generic 3rd party, cheapie minis lines. And you know what? I'd never suggest he's anything but the biggest 40k fan I know.

Money spent or saved doesn't determine fandom, and there is plenty of room for all folks in table-top gaming. Cheers!

Well put, mate. Well put.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 Skriker wrote:
A perfect example is that I can get a much higher quality plastic armor kit from a company like Acadmey or Dragon with 10x the detail of any plastic GW armor kit available, photoetched parts AND a turned aluminum gun barrel for around $45. Look at the price of the new marine AA tanks. It is crazy. I will have far more enjoyment and modeling time building my new Dragon 1/35 scale mobelwagon *and* converting it for use with my marines as an AA platform than I will get from building a silly GW armor kit AND it will look even better on the table as well because it is so detailed from the get go.

Why must GW's detractors always plug some other company? I find it pathetic. We're both playing for plastic toys. In the end it's a money and time wasting hobby that we enjoy. If you enjoy some other company's product, good for you. Most of us buy GW models because we like them, not because they're cheap or have some great value. How many tactical squads are you realistically going to buy if they dropped to $1 per box worldwide?

Why must GW shills ignore the fact that just because someone offers up a counter argument that they are not a GW detractor? I find it pathetic. I have 11 armies for 40k alone. That doesn't include the rest of the GW products I've bought and owned for the last 25+ years and still use regularly for other games by GW.

Given that the person I responded to was making a point on "hobby value" to rationalize the prices, the most direct and effective way to compare to that is to show that cheaper products ALSO bring just as much hobby value and can even bring more. Also I didn't "plug" another company I say "Like" dragon or Academy, also implying other companies like them providing similar products, as there are plenty. That is not a company plug, but an *example* of the types of companies making kits like those I described to support the ACTUAL point I was making. All of the vehicles in both of my IG armies and in my current chaos renegades army are all hyperdetailed 1/35 scale kits and not GW tanks. So I also speak from experience here as well, as I can spend a couple hours working on building a 1/35 Japanese chi-ha tank from some other manufacturer for use as chimera, or I can build an actual GW chimera in 30 minutes from sprue to complete. Modeling value for me does not come from the GW kit in this instance. The better price is just icing on the cake.

I know this is tough for you, but it helps if you actually pay attention to what the post is actually about: In this case it was showing that cheaper products from *any* manufacturer also provide hobby value just as readily as overpriced products from GW. Hard to make a comparison based on price of product comparing GW product to GW product since they are all reaching those heights of silliness on cost.

The number of tactical squads people buy worldwide probably won't change if the price dropped a lousy $1 and that example is just stupid. If they dropped $10-$15 I expect that the volume would increase significantly worldwide.

Skriker

So I heard command squads lost access to special weapons. Can this really be true? It would make them pretty much pointless, especially combined with the decreased cost of the honour guard, as kitting command squads for CC isn't cost effective either. Not to mention rendering many command squads people already have unusable.

 Crimson wrote:
So I heard command squads lost access to special weapons. Can this really be true? It would make them pretty much pointless, especially combined with the decreased cost of the honour guard, as kitting command squads for CC isn't cost effective either. Not to mention rendering many command squads people already have unusable.

Here is the latest rumor I've seen. Word is that there are codexes floating around out there already, so we might be able to get firm answers.

Command Squad
1 may be taken for each Captain, Chaplain or Librarian in the army
Apothecary
Storm shields
May trade Bolt Pistols for Bolters
Veterans may take Melee, and Ranged, Special wargear
May take Standard of the Emperor Ascendant

Wargear
Ranged Weapons: Models may replace their Boltgun or Bolt Pistol with one of the following:

Melee Weapons: Models may replace their Boltgun or Bolt Pistol with one of the following:

Special Weapons:


While there may be certain combinations that might be invalid, it looks like the bulk of models should be fine. I would not be surprised if you had to swap out a weapon for a storm shield, rather then just adding one like before. But that's wild speculation on my part. I'd not get worked up over rumor at this point: we are almost there!

But Special Wargear is different from Special Weapons, former is things like Auspices, Refractor Fields etc. while the latter are Meltas, Plasmas and so forth.

Meltas, Plasma, etc fall under ranged weapons...

rigeld2 wrote:
Meltas, Plasma, etc fall under ranged weapons...

Not in the armoury. Ranged is Combis, Pistols and Stormbolters. Meltagun, Plasmagun, Flamer and Gravgun are under a separate entry of Special Weapons.

 Crimson wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Meltas, Plasma, etc fall under ranged weapons...

Not in the armoury. Ranged is Combis, Pistols and Stormbolters. Meltagun, Plasmagun, Flamer and Gravgun are under a separate entry of Special Weapons.

Special Issue Wargear:


I guess the question is if "Special" wargear refer to "Special Weapons" or "Special Issue" Or both, for that matter. On the bright side, if it is for the wargear, not the weapons, jump pack command squads! But judging what what they have been classically equipped with, I'm going to assume they are talking about the weapons, at least until I get my book. I can see the confusion though.

Makumba wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:


The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.

But it is a bad army. Dreads are bad, assault sm are horrible outside of BAs . Cpts unless they are on bikes are weaker then librarians and command squads are command squads , not sternguard. If you can play your models at what ever you want to call them , it is great . Here to play something you need the right model for it .But even when your opponent let you do counts as , you still end up with 5 combi weapons and wierd models like the apothecary or the banner dude.

Half of the new strike force is bad investment.

Why would anyone play devs in a sm army . In the old dex they were bad and in the new one centurions out perform them .

I don't know why... but this post just keeps rubbing me the wrong way.

My response is... who cares if the units are the best? I mean... the Strike-Force is a discounted bundle to help folks get started... that's all. GW isn't promising you tournament worthy lists right out of the box.

From my understanding, the included units are relatively straight-forward and each captures a different element of the game mechanically AND the fluff.

My favorite units aesthetically are the Dreadnaughts... should I box them because they're "bad"? Yeah.... no.

I could care less about winning at all costs... and as a new player... if I don't ever use "bad" units and figure out why they don't work within the context of the game... how will I ever grow to learn what I DO want to use, or what works?

well that prerelease was a fething shower.... noone who ordered the Ltd edition through my local got one... all the orders taken on paper and being submitted on the monday, It's apparent that this was known on the monday/tuesday and yet I wasn't contacted till after 3pm today....
first of all this is a fethed off bitchfest no apologies for that

I am curious as to what order was used for processing the in store orders submitted from the stores paper records, was it done by store rank or alphabetically, I know it was submitted and gone through based on recieving the email from CS with the details I gave. It had the right name and the right store and even the Manager didn't get his special edition codex order

Not impressed atm it seems GW in my experience can't run a Ltd release without failure.

The resolutions offered in the email were missing the point of an in store preorder.. you know "Getting it on Release Day" and frankly I expected a little more fething competence and not for the manager to have to tell me he Fought to get them to allow the credit issued to be in store rather than online.

so yeah really not impressed.

Final grade E - it looked so promising and the potential for a well orchestrated response to the website crash gave me hope that a better grade could be issued but.... no.... just no.

in summery disappointing and useless

On the "to buy" list:

Codex - not much choice there, just no no no no to special edition ones, a plain one in brown paper wrap is just fine...

AA Tank - looks good, one more for the car pool I think it may magnet up well for either configuration. Not a must have but it has merit for looking cool.

Vanguard - No. Unless they do something radical. I have the prior metal ones still in the plastic container. Nice bits but, no, no, not needed.

Sternguard - They really look good and by looking at the sprue, the bits are good incentive: figure "must buy".

Tactical marines - Sure, why not, lots of parts, more unique, more guys to mix with the rest of the "horde". How can I get "moahr" grav guns out of this??

Centurions - Awww... sure, yeah, I will get them... hope I can find something obvious to make them look better, first off, need to find MANY magnets. Buy for something to fill-in for my dreadnaughts until they are cool again and for a conversion "challenge".

Darn, that is a lot of money. Why is this the same weekend when the Robotech Kickstarter closes? This is gonna hurt.

KingDeath wrote:

I don't see new players spending 140€ + rulebooks for an army they might not like in a game they might not like. Both 40k and Fantasy lack real entry level packages (appart from DV of course ) which give new players the opportunity to simply try out the game and their favourite faction without spending lots of money first. Of course, a weak (or let's call it unfocused if you prefer) entry level army which forces the new player to buy new units just to have a somewhat adequate chance of winning a game isn't that helpful either.

Well, you might be mistaken, because I did it this past Saturday, and two other folks from my shop (none of us who did any group-think), did so the week earlier.

Trust me... in the weird age of Kickstarter and this hobby... dropping $200 isn't even an ordeal anymore for many folks starting a game.... especially, as i've said elsewhere, a game I KNOW has a history, a dedicated community, and games played wherever I go. That knowledge beats the crap, in my mind, out of a random CMoN flavor of the month, which I assure you I will never see played within six months of its release.

I'm still gonna drop at least 130$ into the new army a second Vanguard squad another assault squad maybe more.

everyone says its too much but look at it this way!
£20 for 10 marines?? thats £2 each then think how many times you will use them! thats pretty dam cheap if you ask me!!

its an expensive hobby ive only been doing it since christmas and i must of spent £600+

you will buy the kits because your hooked! haha

Yeah, with the lists I've been thinking about running, I'm gonna need moar bikes and probably a Sternguard kit for bits. I think I can run my 1500 list right now if I clip the extra man off the attack bikes and make them regular bikes, but I'm looking at 24 or 25 bikes at 2k, and I don't have quite that many.

Also, will need a whirlwind at 2K, unless I change my planned list up.

So probably a 200 dollar investment sooner or later (probably later), unless I suddenly decide I need a Stormraven or something (which I probably will end up deciding sooner or later, haha)

No fan of the Centurions at all, the rest looks good. Dislike the high prices though.

Also might need more Devastators. If I switch my lists from allying IF to making them primary detachments, I'm gonna need at least 2-3 full squads of those bad boys.

I'd like to see a Heldrake finish off 6 squads of 5 Devastators parked behind an ADL with a Quad gun. "Oh noo....you got 1 squad...now hold still, the other 5 have to shoot at you"

Incidentally, just as an extra contribution, for fun sake, to the pricing discussion.

I just had to buy a Winterguard Infantry set for my Warmachine army. 10 Infantry (or you can buy a box with 13 modesl 3 w/rockets), for $50, in plastic, with ZERO extra bits or options.

I don't know... but price parity with GW doesn't exactly make Privateer look like the white-knights some people treat them as.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Makumba wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:


The other nice thing about the strikeforce is that it's a playable army. It might not be a tournament army, but legal and viable on the table. Not sure how it will fare with the points reductions, but I would bring that to a 1,000 point battle and have fun with it. It does lack a HS pick, but add a dev box and you are golden.

But it is a bad army. Dreads are bad, assault sm are horrible outside of BAs . Cpts unless they are on bikes are weaker then librarians and command squads are command squads , not sternguard. If you can play your models at what ever you want to call them , it is great . Here to play something you need the right model for it .But even when your opponent let you do counts as , you still end up with 5 combi weapons and wierd models like the apothecary or the banner dude.

Half of the new strike force is bad investment.

Why would anyone play devs in a sm army . In the old dex they were bad and in the new one centurions out perform them .

I don't know why... but this post just keeps rubbing me the wrong way.

My response is... who cares if the units are the best? I mean... the Strike-Force is a discounted bundle to help folks get started... that's all. GW isn't promising you tournament worthy lists right out of the box.

From my understanding, the included units are relatively straight-forward and each captures a different element of the game mechanically AND the fluff.

My favorite units aesthetically are the Dreadnaughts... should I box them because they're "bad"? Yeah.... no.

I could care less about winning at all costs... and as a new player... if I don't ever use "bad" units and figure out why they don't work within the context of the game... how will I ever grow to learn what I DO want to use, or what works?

This. Well put!

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Incidentally, just as an extra contribution, for fun sake, to the pricing discussion.

I just had to buy a Winterguard Infantry set for my Warmachine army. 10 Infantry (or you can buy a box with 13 modesl 3 w/rockets), for $50, in plastic, with ZERO extra bits or options.

I don't know... but price parity with GW doesn't exactly make Privateer look like the white-knights some people treat them as.

There are a lot of arguments as to whether or not Warmahordes is cheaper than 40k, and the argument can be made both ways. Counter argument to the cost you mentioned is that, you paid full retail vs. Ebay where you can get the exact same thing for only $36. Secondly, with the Winterguard unit, most lists even at higher points will typically only have a single unit of them, where in 40k it's not uncommon to need 3 or more of the same unit.

IMO Warmachine IS cheaper to start. Even if you end up spending the same amount of money as a 40k army, you get an army that is far more flexible with list building in Warmachine. I've also noticed that no matter what unit you buy from PP, they all seem to be equally useful vs. 40k (Warptalons anyone?).

Don't get me wrong, I love both games as they both have their individual elements that make them unique and fun to play. Cost wise, I have to say I prefer PP as when I buy something from them, I feel like I'm getting more for my money -- which may end up changing with the new GW kits. The Sternguard and Vanguard kits are very nice and come with a lot of options I can glue onto other models to expand my army further.

--------------------------

Rules wise, anyone else notice that the TFC's have Barrage added to each shot type? That's going to make them even better now.

It also sounds like Vulkan has access to a Command Squad now. That will be epic!

Just noticed in this months WD some bloke in the kit bash section has kitted his tacticals out with a Heavy Flamer! are HFs going to be mor ewidely available now?

 stargasm wrote:
Just noticed in this months WD some bloke in the kit bash section has kitted his tacticals out with a Heavy Flamer! are HFs going to be mor ewidely available now?

Those who claim to have the Codex already, say no to Tacticals having a Heavy Flamer.

But I can't confirm until Saturday

No HF on anything apart from Sterns and LotD.

No specials on Command Squads.

Consider it confirmed.

I managed to get my hands on the book/models yesterday, I've opened a thread for questions and I'll do my best to answer as soon as I can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
No HF on anything apart from Sterns and LotD.

No specials on Command Squads.

Consider it confirmed.

I can confirm that is true.

 Rysaer wrote:
I managed to get my hands on the book/models yesterday, I've opened a thread for questions and I'll do my best to answer as soon as I can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
No HF on anything apart from Sterns and LotD.

No specials on Command Squads.

Consider it confirmed.

I can confirm that is true.

Wow, the no specials on command squads is a turnaround. Did not see that one coming. It was always expensive, but I didn't think broken. I guess that scraps the 4xgrav gun bike command squad though...