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If I told you he shouldn't be mastery level 9, but instead mastery level 4, maybe 5, what would you say?

 ThePrimordial wrote:

It's not fluff accurate. The fluff has a part in telling the rules what to do. For example an assault marine squad will annihilate a squad of guardsmen with little effort. You know why? Because marines are better than guardsmen fluffwise.


I'd like to mention An'ggrath gets punked by inquisitors whereas the daemon primarchs rarely actually get wounded. They simply run out of energy to power their manifestation.
Angron was trying to kill the 100 paladins before they cast a spell that would send him back to the warp. Did you actually think they could hurt him?

No gak that guardsmen get killed by Assault Marines in assault. Because they are made for that... ruleswise.
Oh may I remind you that Magnus as a Deamon Primarch was wounded.. by just a hand full of Space Wolves, Bjorn and later Ironhelm, 100 Grey Knights would slap the gak out of him to be honest.
You don't look at most fluff to create his rules, it's stupid as every piece potrays the Primarchs true power on a different level. That's why GW says that fluff is both cannon and non-cannon at the same time.

Please quote the fluff where "Magnus grows to the size of a warlord Titan and slaughters about 30 great gargants" I'd be interested.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
And no, Magnus is always mentioned as the greatest servant of Tzeentch, Rau Keres is second rate.

IIRC the "power ladder" is: The first Daemon Princes (Doombreed, N'Kari, Bubonicus, M'Kachan) > Daemon Primarchs > Daemon Lords (An'ggrath, Zarakynel, Scabeiathrax, Aetaos'Rau'Keres) > Chosen Greater Daemons

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

It's not fluff accurate. The fluff has a part in telling the rules what to do. For example an assault marine squad will annihilate a squad of guardsmen with little effort. You know why? Because marines are better than guardsmen fluffwise.


I'd like to mention An'ggrath gets punked by inquisitors whereas the daemon primarchs rarely actually get wounded. They simply run out of energy to power their manifestation.
Angron was trying to kill the 100 paladins before they cast a spell that would send him back to the warp. Did you actually think they could hurt him?

No gak that guardsmen get killed by Assault Marines in assault. Because they are made for that... ruleswise.
Oh may I remind you that Magnus as a Deamon Primarch was wounded.. by just a hand full of Space Wolves, Bjorn and later Ironhelm, 100 Grey Knights would slap the gak out of him to be honest.
You don't look at most fluff to create his rules, it's stupid as every piece potrays the Primarchs true power on a different level. That's why GW says that fluff is both cannon and non-cannon at the same time.

What do you think Magnus would be made for?
Magnus took hundreds of bolter, lascannon, and plasma shots while pimp strutting through the space wolf defenses. He had limited energy due to a weak summoning.
To my knowledge he was never wounded but simply ran out of energy


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
And no, Magnus is always mentioned as the greatest servant of Tzeentch, Rau Keres is second rate.

IIRC the "power ladder" is: The first Daemon Princes (Doombreed, N'Kari, Bubonicus, M'Kachan) > Daemon Primarchs > Daemon Lords (An'ggrath, Zarakynel, Scabeiathrax, Aetaos'Rau'Keres) > Chosen Greater Daemons

I can accept Genghis Khan being better than Angron but a wimp like An'ggrath? Hell naw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaconUprising wrote:
Please quote the fluff where "Magnus grows to the size of a warlord Titan and slaughters about 30 great gargants" I'd be interested.

I think it was either in outcast dead, or Aurelian.
Youre missing the point of him personally (by himself) holding off 3 titan legions, millions of guardsmen, a marine legion, an anti pskyer unit,and a primach.
He also is explicitly stated to be dramatically stronger than Malacdor who could move moons.

No I want the quote where he is doing that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you are referring to thousand sons book al. He does is turn a bit of water to acid. Not that impressive. He is fighting a primarch yes, but he is fighting in a bottle neck. He didn't hold of millions of soldiers and a Titan legion. There were no titans and the warriors were blocked rather than stopped and they still got across.

BaconUprising wrote:
No I want the quote where he is doing that.

Aint my job to please you. He's done way trippier gak anyway. I said it was in Aurelian. If you want to be cut friendliness and be rude enough to not believe me, that's all your hang up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaconUprising wrote:
No I want the quote where he is doing that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you are referring to thousand sons book al. He does is turn a bit of water to acid. Not that impressive. He is fighting a primarch yes, but he is fighting in a bottle neck. He didn't hold of millions of soldiers and a Titan legion. There were no titans and the warriors were blocked rather than stopped and they still got across.

Yep there were. The imperial defenses explicitly included titans in the imperial forces. There were hundreds of millions of guardsmen. What do you mean a bit of water? It was a large lake blocking the entrance to Tizca which is the size of a small state. They never got across, and if they did it wasn't until Magnus got wounded and the massively slowed time, acid rain, gigawatt lightning, and fire stopped.
Edi: You do know that pre heresy titans were basically the heavy tanks of the imperial army right?

Rude enough not to believe you? Ha really? Almost everything you use as evidence is overblown rubbish you have dreamed up. In all of our discussions so far not once have you actually quoted a genuine source so no, no I won't just believe you. You clearly have no desire to improve your characters as you constantly use the same flawed argument in an attempt to convince everybody you are right. You fail to listen to any comments or criticisms no matter how many people disagree with you. Despite the fact that every comment has been disagreeing with you so far shows your wrong. Come on why do you bother posting, you never listen. I'm done trying to reason with someone who clearly doesn't want help, only unearned praise. Goodbye.

BaconUprising wrote:
Rude enough not to believe you? Ha really? Almost everything you use as evidence is overblown rubbish you have dreamed up. In all of our discussions so far not once have you actually quoted a genuine source so no, no I won't just believe you. You clearly have no desire to improve your characters as you constantly use the same flawed argument in an attempt to convince everybody you are right. You fail to listen to any comments or criticisms no matter how many people disagree with you. Despite the fact that every comment has been disagreeing with you so far shows your wrong. Come on why do you bother posting, you never listen. I'm done trying to reason with someone who clearly doesn't want help, only unearned praise. Goodbye.

Oh really, how do I improve the character? You've given no ways to improve it my mouth breathing friend.
These are facts: Magnus held off a space marine legion, millions of imperial army, and a primarch. He's also stronger than a guy who cold move moons.
I've gotten praise from other people. I don't care for it. In who's mind do you get praise for making a unit in a wargame? It's a useless talent to someone who works as a lead engineer. Dude, have more respect for people, you're pitiful if you think that's an awe inspiring skill that someone can get divinity for.

You do realize your post doesn't actually make sense? And who exactly can move moons? Talking in riddles does wonders to turning a conversation sour.

BaconUprising wrote:
You do realize your post doesn't actually make sense? And who exactly can move moons? Talking in riddles does wonders to turning a conversation sour.

Malacdor can move moons. I've mentioned this a good 4 times. Riddles?
Seriously praise for a unit in a boardgame? Clean the ash off yourself. I'm gonna find it hilarious when you don't know what I mean by that.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Dude, have more respect for people, you're pitiful if you think that's an awe inspiring skill that someone can get divinity for.

I'm just going to quote this to prevent you from editing it out of your post like you so frequently do. Anyway I think we should just stop this now as this is devolving into a petty argument. I don't really desire to waste the mods time locking a thread that has potential, but only if you actually start listening and use the criticisms to improve your character.

I've been saying not to use fluff logic in the tabletop rules, just like loads of other people in multiple of your Proposed Rules Threads. And you seem to ignore them all even though they are very valid points. And lots of the arguments you talk about on mr.Magnus are pretty exaggerated.

Malcador the Sigillite hid moon of Titan in the Warp to protect what would become the Grey Knights from the attacking Traitor Legions. He did not move it.

BaconUprising wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Dude, have more respect for people, you're pitiful if you think that's an awe inspiring skill that someone can get divinity for.

I'm just going to quote this to prevent you from editing it out of your post like you so frequently do. Anyway I think we should just stop this now as this is devolving into a petty argument. I don't really desire to waste the mods time locking a thread that has potential, but only if you actually start listening and use the criticisms to improve your character.

Give me actual criticism then.I know it's hard for someone like you to do that. Magnus is stronger than An'ggrath or Rau Keres. Just accept that for purposes of ending arguing and give specific criticism.
What should be lowered? Which powers are good? Which powers are bad? How does he compare to evenly priced models?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Grumpy Eldar wrote:
I've been saying not to use fluff logic in the tabletop rules, just like loads of other people in multiple of your Proposed Rules Threads. And you seem to ignore them all even though they are very valid points. And lots of the arguments you talk about on mr.Magnus are pretty exaggerated.

mr. Magnus? what....
Well moving on, yeah Malacdor could move moons, and Magnus is a magnitude stronger. I've yet to get specfic criticism on his psychic powers, his leadership rules or his stats. That's how bad the "criticism" has been.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaconUprising wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Dude, have more respect for people, you're pitiful if you think that's an awe inspiring skill that someone can get divinity for.

I'm just going to quote this to prevent you from editing it out of your post like you so frequently do. Anyway I think we should just stop this now as this is devolving into a petty argument. I don't really desire to waste the mods time locking a thread that has potential, but only if you actually start listening and use the criticisms to improve your character.

Why would I edit that out? If I wanted to be showered in praise, I'd attempt to cure cancer, and run an orphanage. Seriously bro, it's a boardgame. Not a valid source of praise.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

Daemon Primarchs in lore are the nastiest things you could have the misfortune of encountering on the battlefield. They destroy entire titan legions by themselves. They make imperator titans look like cute baby kittens standing next to an alpha rhino.

Wow, that must mean that Draigo can do all those things, but better!

Iranna.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
*Lots of rude stuff.*

Seriously Primordial. Chill out. You put up rules for a character in a subforum designed for Constructive criticism for rules, people give you these constructive criticisms, and you start personally attacking anyone who does so. If you only want people here to review your fluff, which you havent written because supposedly its in things you never quote, then do it in a different subforum, because this isn't the right one. I haven't bothered to post in most of your character threads, but the fact I have now, simply to tell you to back off how rude you are being to other people shows a little bit about you doesn't it?

I've been looking at this for a while and decided to comment. Yeah Prime was rude, so was Bacon to a lesser extent. Prime was just more upfront.

This has yet to get actual feedback regarding statline or powers. All it's gotten is arguing over who's better, demon lords or demon primarchs.

The OP fueled this like a reactor but there are people saying this got actual criticism around what matters to a creation.......is it balanced.

The only person who gave criticism was BlackSails and he only did it once with the mastery level questioning.

It is my opinion that Magnus is stronger than say An'ggrath, but 40k lore can be perceived in any number of ways

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
I've been looking at this for a while and decided to comment. Yeah Prime was rude, so was Bacon to a lesser extent. Prime was just more upfront.

This has yet to get actual feedback regarding statline or powers. All it's gotten is arguing over who's better, demon lords or demon primarchs.

The OP fueled this like a reactor but there are people saying this got actual criticism around what matters to a creation.......is it balanced.

The only person who gave criticism was BlackSails and he only did it once with the mastery level questioning.

It is my opinion that Magnus is stronger than say An'ggrath, but 40k lore can be perceived in any number of ways

read his other posts in his other threads. This is always the same outcome no matter what feedback people give him. Was I rude? If so where? The very fact that I'm commenting suggests that I actually care about helping him, it's just frustrating he doesn't want to help himself. If I was lazy and didn't care I would ignore this user. Something I'm very tempted to soon do.

Again, Draigo has some of the most stupidly OP fluff feats in 40k and is costed at a fraction of what you have for Magnus, despite being almost certainly able to curbstomp Magnus in fluff.

I am not trying to say that Magnus should not be stronger than Draigo in-game, but that fluff really relates very little to the game.

BaconUprising wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
I've been looking at this for a while and decided to comment. Yeah Prime was rude, so was Bacon to a lesser extent. Prime was just more upfront.

This has yet to get actual feedback regarding statline or powers. All it's gotten is arguing over who's better, demon lords or demon primarchs.

The OP fueled this like a reactor but there are people saying this got actual criticism around what matters to a creation.......is it balanced.

The only person who gave criticism was BlackSails and he only did it once with the mastery level questioning.

It is my opinion that Magnus is stronger than say An'ggrath, but 40k lore can be perceived in any number of ways

read his other posts in his other threads. This is always the same outcome no matter what feedback people give him. Was I rude? If so where? The very fact that I'm commenting suggests that I actually care about helping him, it's just frustrating he doesn't want to help himself. If I was lazy and didn't care I would ignore this user. Something I'm very tempted to soon do.

If I created a thread on this forum that went 2 pages with no legit criticism I'd be willing to insult people. I think you would too. If you cared you would say what needs to be lowered and what needs to be put in the trashbin.
He's almost never been given any useful feedback and when he's gotten it it's been from a massively different viewpoint. It's his view and to be honest (in my experience) most people's that the demon primarchs are better than demon lords.
With this in mind, how would you change the stats?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Again, Draigo has some of the most stupidly OP fluff feats in 40k and is costed at a fraction of what you have for Magnus, despite being almost certainly able to curbstomp Magnus in fluff.

I am not trying to say that Magnus should not be stronger than Draigo in-game, but that fluff really relates very little to the game.

Ward fluff isn't valid in my head canon. You're the only one who likes him on the forum to my knowledge, no offense meant at all.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Again, Draigo has some of the most stupidly OP fluff feats in 40k and is costed at a fraction of what you have for Magnus, despite being almost certainly able to curbstomp Magnus in fluff.

I am not trying to say that Magnus should not be stronger than Draigo in-game, but that fluff really relates very little to the game.

Ward fluff isn't valid in my head canon. You're the only one who likes him on the forum to my knowledge, no offense meant at all.

Fluff you don't like is still fluff. Ward wrote the SM codex last edition, the defining race of 40k, Blood Angels, and GK. You are really going to discount such a large proportion of fluff because of a name on the interior jacket? Ok, if you want to.

As for Draigo, I like him because I am easily impressed by over the top feats from a romanticized and completely absurd embodiment of fortitude.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Again, Draigo has some of the most stupidly OP fluff feats in 40k and is costed at a fraction of what you have for Magnus, despite being almost certainly able to curbstomp Magnus in fluff.

I am not trying to say that Magnus should not be stronger than Draigo in-game, but that fluff really relates very little to the game.

Ward fluff isn't valid in my head canon. You're the only one who likes him on the forum to my knowledge, no offense meant at all.

Fluff you don't like is still fluff. Ward wrote the SM codex last edition, the defining race of 40k, Blood Angels, and GK. You are really going to discount such a large proportion of fluff because of a name on the interior jacket? Ok, if you want to.

As for Draigo, I like him because I am easily impressed by over the top feats from a romanticized and completely absurd embodiment of fortitude.

A Space marine chapter master beating a primarch is like a sphinx cat beating an elephant trained by Bruce Lee.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Again, Draigo has some of the most stupidly OP fluff feats in 40k and is costed at a fraction of what you have for Magnus, despite being almost certainly able to curbstomp Magnus in fluff.

I am not trying to say that Magnus should not be stronger than Draigo in-game, but that fluff really relates very little to the game.

Ward fluff isn't valid in my head canon. You're the only one who likes him on the forum to my knowledge, no offense meant at all.

Fluff you don't like is still fluff. Ward wrote the SM codex last edition, the defining race of 40k, Blood Angels, and GK. You are really going to discount such a large proportion of fluff because of a name on the interior jacket? Ok, if you want to.

As for Draigo, I like him because I am easily impressed by over the top feats from a romanticized and completely absurd embodiment of fortitude.

A Space marine chapter master beating a primarch is like a sphinx cat beating an elephant trained by Bruce Lee.

Nobody is saying Draigo is reasonable, but do you know what else is unreasonable?

 ThePrimordial wrote:

He grew to the size of a warlord titan and slaughters about 30 great gargants with his hands.
And no, Magnus is always mentioned as the greatest servant of Tzeentch, Rau Keres is second rate.
Edit: All the primarchs were created with a purpose in mind. Magnus was made to sit on the golden throne and be unaffected. When Malacdor sat in the golden throne (he could move moons) he was vaporized in a couple hours. This is only implied. Regardless, Magnus is stated to be way stronger than Malacdor due to being "the second strongest psyker in the galaxy".

That. Draigo's fluff is almost as bad, yet he is colossally toned down.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Again, Draigo has some of the most stupidly OP fluff feats in 40k and is costed at a fraction of what you have for Magnus, despite being almost certainly able to curbstomp Magnus in fluff.

I am not trying to say that Magnus should not be stronger than Draigo in-game, but that fluff really relates very little to the game.

Ward fluff isn't valid in my head canon. You're the only one who likes him on the forum to my knowledge, no offense meant at all.

Fluff you don't like is still fluff. Ward wrote the SM codex last edition, the defining race of 40k, Blood Angels, and GK. You are really going to discount such a large proportion of fluff because of a name on the interior jacket? Ok, if you want to.

As for Draigo, I like him because I am easily impressed by over the top feats from a romanticized and completely absurd embodiment of fortitude.

A Space marine chapter master beating a primarch is like a sphinx cat beating an elephant trained by Bruce Lee.

Nobody is saying Draigo is reasonable, but do you know what else is unreasonable?

 ThePrimordial wrote:

He grew to the size of a warlord titan and slaughters about 30 great gargants with his hands.
And no, Magnus is always mentioned as the greatest servant of Tzeentch, Rau Keres is second rate.
Edit: All the primarchs were created with a purpose in mind. Magnus was made to sit on the golden throne and be unaffected. When Malacdor sat in the golden throne (he could move moons) he was vaporized in a couple hours. This is only implied. Regardless, Magnus is stated to be way stronger than Malacdor due to being "the second strongest psyker in the galaxy".

That. Draigo's fluff is almost as bad, yet he is colossally toned down.

So we don't get more off topic what do you think of the rules, as they are?
BTW that bit of fluff is canon. Magnus is that silly powerful.
Edit: I honestly want to use demon Magnus in a game of Apoc and I share the OP's opinions on power scale.
Edit: And yeah that bit of fluff about Magnus and Malacdor is unbelievably stupid
Edit: I could start my thread about this due to being more open than the OP if asked.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Again, Draigo has some of the most stupidly OP fluff feats in 40k and is costed at a fraction of what you have for Magnus, despite being almost certainly able to curbstomp Magnus in fluff.

I am not trying to say that Magnus should not be stronger than Draigo in-game, but that fluff really relates very little to the game.

Ward fluff isn't valid in my head canon. You're the only one who likes him on the forum to my knowledge, no offense meant at all.

Fluff you don't like is still fluff. Ward wrote the SM codex last edition, the defining race of 40k, Blood Angels, and GK. You are really going to discount such a large proportion of fluff because of a name on the interior jacket? Ok, if you want to.

As for Draigo, I like him because I am easily impressed by over the top feats from a romanticized and completely absurd embodiment of fortitude.

A Space marine chapter master beating a primarch is like a sphinx cat beating an elephant trained by Bruce Lee.

Nobody is saying Draigo is reasonable, but do you know what else is unreasonable?

 ThePrimordial wrote:

He grew to the size of a warlord titan and slaughters about 30 great gargants with his hands.
And no, Magnus is always mentioned as the greatest servant of Tzeentch, Rau Keres is second rate.
Edit: All the primarchs were created with a purpose in mind. Magnus was made to sit on the golden throne and be unaffected. When Malacdor sat in the golden throne (he could move moons) he was vaporized in a couple hours. This is only implied. Regardless, Magnus is stated to be way stronger than Malacdor due to being "the second strongest psyker in the galaxy".

That. Draigo's fluff is almost as bad, yet he is colossally toned down.

So we don't get more off topic what do you think of the rules, as they are?
BTW that bit of fluff is canon. Magnus is that silly powerful.
Edit: I honestly want to use demon Magnus in a game of Apoc and I share the OP's opinions on power scale.
Edit: And yeah that bit of fluff about Magnus and Malacdor is unbelievably stupid
Edit: I could start my thread about this due to being more open than the OP if asked.

Well, anything more open than the OP would be an improvement, why not go ahead and post it here.

I do not think the power scale is reasonable, it should at least be somewhat balanced with the 30k Primarchs.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
Again, Draigo has some of the most stupidly OP fluff feats in 40k and is costed at a fraction of what you have for Magnus, despite being almost certainly able to curbstomp Magnus in fluff.

I am not trying to say that Magnus should not be stronger than Draigo in-game, but that fluff really relates very little to the game.

Ward fluff isn't valid in my head canon. You're the only one who likes him on the forum to my knowledge, no offense meant at all.

Fluff you don't like is still fluff. Ward wrote the SM codex last edition, the defining race of 40k, Blood Angels, and GK. You are really going to discount such a large proportion of fluff because of a name on the interior jacket? Ok, if you want to.

As for Draigo, I like him because I am easily impressed by over the top feats from a romanticized and completely absurd embodiment of fortitude.

A Space marine chapter master beating a primarch is like a sphinx cat beating an elephant trained by Bruce Lee.

Nobody is saying Draigo is reasonable, but do you know what else is unreasonable?

 ThePrimordial wrote:

He grew to the size of a warlord titan and slaughters about 30 great gargants with his hands.
And no, Magnus is always mentioned as the greatest servant of Tzeentch, Rau Keres is second rate.
Edit: All the primarchs were created with a purpose in mind. Magnus was made to sit on the golden throne and be unaffected. When Malacdor sat in the golden throne (he could move moons) he was vaporized in a couple hours. This is only implied. Regardless, Magnus is stated to be way stronger than Malacdor due to being "the second strongest psyker in the galaxy".

That. Draigo's fluff is almost as bad, yet he is colossally toned down.

So we don't get more off topic what do you think of the rules, as they are?
BTW that bit of fluff is canon. Magnus is that silly powerful.
Edit: I honestly want to use demon Magnus in a game of Apoc and I share the OP's opinions on power scale.
Edit: And yeah that bit of fluff about Magnus and Malacdor is unbelievably stupid
Edit: I could start my thread about this due to being more open than the OP if asked.

Well, anything more open than the OP would be an improvement, why not go ahead and post it here.

I do not think the power scale is reasonable, it should at least be somewhat balanced with the 30k Primarchs.

Gosh, well the OP mentioned this like 30 times but these aren't meant to be in line with those. The 30k primarchs are meant for normal 40k and the daemon lords are meant for Apoc. And these are meant to be line with the demon lords.
But yeah it's in need of a nerf. He's as tough as scabeiathrax.

The 30k primarchs really aren't meant for 40k...