Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As an avid space marine player, and knowing that 6th edition kind of gave it to assault infantry, are the new Vanguards worth it? The models look amazing and I really want to incorporate them but I cant see a list that makes a huge point sucking assault unit worth it.

Thoughts?

Well assault jumpers with 3+ invul and a thunder hammer? i say why not!

 phatonic wrote:
Well assault jumpers with 3+ invul and a thunder hammer? i say why not!

wont the squad cost like 500 points if you do that?

The codex hasn't been released to look at points yet, but initial rumours point to a much cheaper VV squad that now competes with Sternguard, Hammernators, CENTURIANS OMGZ, Dreadnoughts and whatever else, but the first 2, in a competitive setting, really overshadow everything, especially if its true they can no longer assualt after DS, their trademark and biggest use.


However, the models themselves are a steal if you want Assault Marines or just bling. For only £4.50 more than Assault Marines you get all the parts to make an assault squad, only with bling, as well as a better Axe and Shield for the Sarge, as well as Grav Pistols, Thunder Hammers and for the first time ever in plastic that I can recall, Lightning Claws in matched pairs.

Yeah, the Vanguard set is going to sell fairly well. The legs have a little too much bling for my tastes, but it's hard to argue with the sheer amount of bits in it. Four full sets of storm shields, thunder hammers, lightning claws, chainswords...

Right now, the only point that seems to be against Vanguards is getting shifted into the Elites slot where they have to compete. Otherwise, they've (apparently) come down quite a bit in price, points-wise.

Not worth it, even without seeing the points.

First off ( FU GW, I just finished converting matched sets of lightning claws using shrike's bitz). paired lightning claws are a points sink. 15 points for +1 attack? Better off going with a plasma pistol for a str 7 ap 2 shot that can damage a vehicle or MC.

Secondly, most of the units you'll want to assault (IG, Eldar Guardians etc) have so many overwatch shots and attacks coming back that the high points cost/low model count is a killer..you may only lose 1 or 2 models, but it renders the unit useless. Most of the units you don't want to assault outfight space marine assaulters if you end up in combat with them.

I've run RavenGuard and Blood Angels (old book) with jump packs, and only my old Death Company and Honor Guard were any good. Both had +1 Str and +1 init from FC and that made all the difference. Honor Guard also could reroll attacks I think. Too hard to replicate in this edition.

Thunder Hammer and storm shield with 12 inch move and reroll charge distances ( RavenGuard VV) vs Terminators is a no brainer, the Termies always win.

There's an assumption here that every single Vanguard needs to be given incredible weapons. OF COURSE that'll make the unit overpriced. But why are we thinking this way? Who actually gives Death Company double thunder hammers? Who gives every single Berzerker a chain-axe, every Sergeant the PF/LC combo? I want to meet these people and shake their hand, but I'm afraid my own will shrivel from the insanity as I extend it.

No, you need to upgrade only a couple of members. This has the benefit of keeping the unit cheaper, of not overkilling your target on the charge and leaving yourself in the open, and most importantly having a couple of bog-standard BP+CCW guys to sit at the front and die horribly - because some of them probably will.

Without the Codex yet, I can't say much on whether they'll actually be worth taking, but I can say this - now that they're cheaper, taking a unit larger than 5 may well finally be worthwhile.

Super Ready has it right - keep em cheap. An upgrade or two are cool, but it's very easy to go overboard. When I ran veterans in the old DA codex, my rule of thumb was one special weapon per three dudes. Kept the squad from getting too out of hand.

If Vanguard Veterans still have their Heroic Intervention rule (I can't say I know of the top of my head if they still do, but I'd assume) then they'd make for a half decent harassment unit. Even if they just have bolt pistols and chainswords, 5 guys dropping in out of nowhere and assaulting something are going to tie something important up or ruin some backfielder's day.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Super Ready has it right - keep em cheap. An upgrade or two are cool, but it's very easy to go overboard. When I ran veterans in the old DA codex, my rule of thumb was one special weapon per three dudes. Kept the squad from getting too out of hand.

If Vanguard Veterans still have their Heroic Intervention rule (I can't say I know of the top of my head if they still do, but I'd assume) then they'd make for a half decent harassment unit. Even if they just have bolt pistols and chainswords, 5 guys dropping in out of nowhere and assaulting something are going to tie something important up or ruin some backfielder's day.

Oh, they still have heroic intervention, sadly it's been changed. It no longer allows you to charge after deep striking, now it allows you to make disorganized charges without losing the +1 attack bonus for charging, and allows you to make glorious interventions in duels automatically.

So, basically, they are assault marines with an extra attack and access to special weapons for 5 additional points per model.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Oh, they still have heroic intervention, sadly it's been changed. It no longer allows you to charge after deep striking, now it allows you to make disorganized charges without losing the +1 attack bonus for charging, and allows you to make glorious interventions in duels automatically.
So, basically, they are assault marines with an extra attack and access to special weapons for 5 additional points per model.

If this is true, it actually makes them a viable option to take with a beatstick close-combat character. You could keep the model in the unit and happily engage two units at once out of an assault transport or from distance with jump packs, whereas with an Honour Guard or Command Squad you'd be looking at either losing the extra Attack or splitting the character off first, which could be riskier.

Bare squad of 10 with packs is 220, perhaps with a sgt upgrade 230? Not sure if the sgt will continue to get a power wpn included. Compare that to a 5 man sternguard unit in a pod, all with combi-plas/melta/flamer and special ammo at 205, 215 with sgt upgrade? Which is going to get you more, the 5 stern or 10 vanguard? I love the new bitz, but the unit just doesn't impress me much. Even when you cut it in half, add the remainder of points in upgrades and attach it to infiltrate with Shrike. If the upgrades match the DA dex (as rumored) they're just going to add up too quick.

Hoping I'm wrong, will definitely give the 5man squad paired down in points a try. But I'm thinking Honor Guard may be a better option, add Chapter Master, add Shrike for some kind of Infiltrating Deathstar? They might survive long enough to do something with all the scout vehicles and drop pods saturating the target area.