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the canadians had vowed vengance upon their US bretheren ever since the great syrup heist of 2054,

waiting for the coldest day in living memory, the brave canucks laced up their skates and attached their hockey stick bayonets to their longbranches.

then they all skated down the frozen missipi in the dead of night, making no sound as they glided effortlessly along the ice.

first they left a trail of canadian bacon, so as to lead away all the deadly weiner dog defence forces, then they crippeled the populace with deadly broadcasts of celene dion at extremly high volume.

then next morning, those few souls hat were left, awoke to scenes of carnage and despair, skate slashed throats, bodies that had been cross checked so badly as to be unrecognizable as being human.

all this paled in comparison to the biological warfare the canucks had used.

For as they left, they seeded the land with quebecers, who spread their virulent language laws, and convinced the south to seceed, causing a new civil war.



Oh and they burnt down the white house, AGAIN.

The difference is that most of the immigrants in the past were legal AFAIK. Any Illegals that arrived were not numerous enough to be a problem. And we had an economy built on an expanding population, and we had land to grow into.

Now immigration is a hindrance.


We no longer need a massive labor force in manufacturing jobs due to automation, and the labor we do need must be skilled.

These illegal immigrants are providing mostly unskilled labor, which is only of need in some fields such as Agriculture. Thus there is a disjoint between what Immigration is providing and what we need.


Previously, we needed unskilled labor and Immigration provided that. Needs have changed without Immigration changing what it is supplying.

These changes mean that illegal immigration shouldn't be allowed(aside from the fact that the law should be enforced) as it hurts us.

We could expand work visas from mexico because we need their labor for our agriculture, but people that immigrate illegally shouldn't be tolerated. If you want to live here you should follow our laws, not just the ones that are convenient.

 Forar wrote:
I'm now envisioning a maple syrup based retelling of the Trojan horse.

"It was then, drunk on an irresistible mixture of syrup, pancakes, waffles and crepes that the Mounties disembarked from their empty keg transports, and struck with ruthless determination.

Truly, it was a dark day in the history of all mankind, but they say that the flowers in that field continue to grow the most vibrant colours of them all, fed as the soil did on the blood and sugar shed that day..."

All joking aside, this thread has reminded me to refill some of my supplies and look into an updated first aid kit for the condo. Something to do over the next few months before winter sets in.

This thread reminds me that there are only 11 days left in Frazzled hurricane season.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The difference is that most of the immigrants in the past were legal AFAIK. Any Illegals that arrived were not numerous enough to be a problem. And we had an economy built on an expanding population, and we had land to grow into.

Now immigration is a hindrance.


We no longer need a massive labor force in manufacturing jobs due to automation, and the labor we do need must be skilled.

These illegal immigrants are providing mostly unskilled labor, which is only of need in some fields such as Agriculture. Thus there is a disjoint between what Immigration is providing and what we need.


Previously, we needed unskilled labor and Immigration provided that. Needs have changed without Immigration changing what it is supplying.

These changes mean that illegal immigration shouldn't be allowed(aside from the fact that the law should be enforced) as it hurts us.

We could expand work visas from mexico because we need their labor for our agriculture, but people that immigrate illegally shouldn't be tolerated. If you want to live here you should follow our laws, not just the ones that are convenient.

^^THIS^^

 Grey Templar wrote:
The difference is that most of the immigrants in the past were legal AFAIK. Any Illegals that arrived were not numerous enough to be a problem. And we had an economy built on an expanding population, and we had land to grow into.

Now immigration is a hindrance.

I'm not sure why. I mean, aside from the data which indicates that illegal immigrants put more into the economy than they take out, why would young, hard working people entering an economy be a hindrance, especially when most industrial nations are facing population declines?

You mention land, but we have a lower population density than mexico, china, or india! We have more room to grow than most nations! (yes a big chunk of that is Alaska, but I've driven enough of this country to know that we haven't run out of room.)

We no longer need a massive labor force in manufacturing jobs due to automation, and the labor we do need must be skilled.

These illegal immigrants are providing mostly unskilled labor, which is only of need in some fields such as Agriculture. Thus there is a disjoint between what Immigration is providing and what we need.


Previously, we needed unskilled labor and Immigration provided that. Needs have changed without Immigration changing what it is supplying.

These changes mean that illegal immigration shouldn't be allowed(aside from the fact that the law should be enforced) as it hurts us.

We could expand work visas from mexico because we need their labor for our agriculture, but people that immigrate illegally shouldn't be tolerated. If you want to live here you should follow our laws, not just the ones that are convenient.

Well, illegal immigrants aren't coming here to see the sights. They're coming here for work, it's simply work that pays less than minimum wage. The laws of supply and demand seem to indicate that if a giant supply of anything is coming into the country, there is probably a demand. Shockingly, good old fashioned capitilist Americans like saving money, even if it's slightly illegal.

A great quote: “The reason we do not have secure borders is because of an insatiable demand for cheap labor,” says Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., a leading immigration-control advocate in Congress. “We have the ability to secure the border; we choose not to. The Democratic Party sees massive immigration — legal and illegal — as a massive source of voters. The Republican Party looks at the issue and says, 'Wow, that's a lot of cheap labor coming across that border.' ”
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/eng207-td/Sources,%20Links/illegal_immigration.htm

 Polonius wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The difference is that most of the immigrants in the past were legal AFAIK. Any Illegals that arrived were not numerous enough to be a problem. And we had an economy built on an expanding population, and we had land to grow into.

Now immigration is a hindrance.

I'm not sure why. I mean, aside from the data which indicates that illegal immigrants put more into the economy than they take out, why would young, hard working people entering an economy be a hindrance, especially when most industrial nations are facing population declines?

You mention land, but we have a lower population density than mexico, china, or india! We have more room to grow than most nations! (yes a big chunk of that is Alaska, but I've driven enough of this country to know that we haven't run out of room.)

We no longer need a massive labor force in manufacturing jobs due to automation, and the labor we do need must be skilled.

These illegal immigrants are providing mostly unskilled labor, which is only of need in some fields such as Agriculture. Thus there is a disjoint between what Immigration is providing and what we need.


Previously, we needed unskilled labor and Immigration provided that. Needs have changed without Immigration changing what it is supplying.

These changes mean that illegal immigration shouldn't be allowed(aside from the fact that the law should be enforced) as it hurts us.

We could expand work visas from mexico because we need their labor for our agriculture, but people that immigrate illegally shouldn't be tolerated. If you want to live here you should follow our laws, not just the ones that are convenient.

Well, illegal immigrants aren't coming here to see the sights. They're coming here for work, it's simply work that pays less than minimum wage. The laws of supply and demand seem to indicate that if a giant supply of anything is coming into the country, there is probably a demand. Shockingly, good old fashioned capitilist Americans like saving money, even if it's slightly illegal.

Thats the thing, a majority of them are NOT coming here for work. 20, 25 years ago that may have been true, but not since the laws around welfare were changed to include them. they are expecting the growing socialist handout.

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Thats the thing, a majority of them are NOT coming here for work. 20, 25 years ago that may have been true, but not since the laws around welfare were changed to include them. they are expecting the growing socialist handout.

Not true. Or, at least not true to the extent that you seem to allege.

http://www.cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011

•In 2009 (based on data collected in 2010), 57 percent of households headed by an immigrant (legal and illegal) with children (under 18) used at least one welfare program, compared to 39 percent for native households with children.

•Illegal immigrant households with children primarily use food assistance and Medicaid, making almost no use of cash or housing assistance.

•An unwillingness to work is not the reason immigrant welfare use is high. The vast majority (95 percent) of immigrant households with children had at least one worker in 2009. But their low education levels mean that more than half of these working immigrant households with children still accessed the welfare system during 2009.

And this is from a think tank that is for lower immigration!

Of course, people think "welfare program" and they think somebody that doesn't work collecting a large month check. Most people that recieve welfare get food assistance or medicaid, not cash. Hell, I dated a girl that worked full time and got food stamps.

Does a roaring economy exist as the population becomes increasingly dependent on welfare?

But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future.

 Grey Templar wrote:
But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future.

This is how you water down a culture, erode national sovereignty.

I think we will be fine, so many other countrys have it worse than us in the states. If they can survive so can we, people will just be forced to learn to adapt. The biggest issues people will have is entitlement, i feel like our country really supports people who don't want to work. Americans do like to prep though, its a hobby like 40k. Instead of bragging about your new units its the 50 extra gallons of water you just procured for your bomb shelter.

 gorgon wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Exactly.

EDIT: it also depends on the level of "prepping." Having supplies for a period of time is one thing. We are very electronic dependant at this point and there are a variety of things that could knock out the grid for a period of time.

Living in a renovated minuteman silo is something altogether different (and cooler).

I just want a hacienda with walls.

and chupacabras.

in the trees...

I've learned from the local Amish: we have a manual well water pump -just in case. We are also friends with our neighbors, as well as members of several clubs/groups/departments (safety in numbers). The prepper show is just more Hollyweird reality show BS.

That's really it, isn't it? If society ends, it's going to be the people that put together a group/team/NEW SOCIETY that survive. As someone said earlier in the thread, if you think you're going to live long term on your own in some bunker off in the woods or desert...well, good luck with that. I'll put my money on the people with diverse skill sets who work together. And quite frankly, I think there'd be plenty of that going on in the event some calamity ends modern society. The entire point of human civilization is that our species figured out they'd benefit more by working together than independently.

One could probably question whether the preppers who build bunkers in some remote location are actually exhibiting some kind of desire to withdraw from society moreso than preparing for some imminent disaster. But psychology really isn't my field, and not something I should dabble it either.

Read your post, and the posts about maple syrup . And it bought to mind this video.


Now I know you guys probably won't watch it, But it's informative.

 Grey Templar wrote:
But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future

Everyone living in the country pays into the system. It's an inescapable fact of living in a society.

 Spacemanvic wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The difference is that most of the immigrants in the past were legal AFAIK. Any Illegals that arrived were not numerous enough to be a problem. And we had an economy built on an expanding population, and we had land to grow into.

Now immigration is a hindrance.


We no longer need a massive labor force in manufacturing jobs due to automation, and the labor we do need must be skilled.

These illegal immigrants are providing mostly unskilled labor, which is only of need in some fields such as Agriculture. Thus there is a disjoint between what Immigration is providing and what we need.


Previously, we needed unskilled labor and Immigration provided that. Needs have changed without Immigration changing what it is supplying.

These changes mean that illegal immigration shouldn't be allowed(aside from the fact that the law should be enforced) as it hurts us.

We could expand work visas from mexico because we need their labor for our agriculture, but people that immigrate illegally shouldn't be tolerated. If you want to live here you should follow our laws, not just the ones that are convenient.

^^THIS^^

I agree.

I am ex-military, and spent 7 years as a street cop in a major urban area down south over the last decade, and the pressure to assimilate is simply no longer there.

I can not tell you how many times I have been in the gheto (name your color or creed, we had them all including your classic redneck types) and had candid conversations with the people there. Most of them will tell you the following, and I can personally vouch for the truth of their words.

If you stay illegal you are almost untouchable legally, unless you commit a major felony (I'm talking aggravated rape, murder, something like that: definitely not property or financial crimes). I have arrested some individuals up to 5 times (before they wandered out of my beat) under different names, locked them up, only to find them back on the street the next day with a new name, new documentation, and committing the same old crimes.

No finger prints if you don't commit a felony, and if you don't show up to trial and all your documentation was false in the first place, are they really going to look for you? Simple answer is no.

Talk to any ICE agent and they will tell you what a joke deportation is, hell they even send the hardcore boys that do get deported to college and GED classes while they're waiting on their chance to hop the fence again.

In addition any illegal worth their salt can still register any children and themselves up for welfare and government aid while illegal. Even if some red tape is in the way a quick stop at the nearest flea market will net you all the false documentation you could ever need to circumvent said red tape.

Plus, once you've obtained your illegal untouchable status and wrangled yourself up some benefits, bam, you just get involved in the local black market and your home free financially.

I have been in sooooo many welfare / gheto / criminal homes that have perfectly kept expensive vehicles / appliances / furniture / homes that not even one of my Majors could have afforded.

There is simply no reason to become a legal citizen if you do the math. No one, and I mean NO ONE, has more rights than a criminally connected illegal immigrant in our current society. I wish it were not true, but it is.

Likewise, nobody has less rights than a legally documented, easily traced and sued /fined / jailed legal citizen in this country. You have something to lose, and they know where to find you. It really is head between the knees pucker up time on that one.

I have busted my ass for over a decade serving my country, have spent blood sweat and tears to try to keep it running, but it really is all for naught. Honestly, if I could wave a magic wand and become an undocumented nobody without an ounce of legal history or traceability, I would do it in a heartbeat. Its really that bad.

I wish I could say we don't look like Rome, and in many way's we are quite different, but all you have to do is look at the growing rate of fragmentation and self-segregation in our society to know that bad things are coming. The Goths are definitely inside the gates and living under their own rule in our lands, in that way we are very much like Rome in it's final years.

Corruption and unsustainable economic models can only continue for so long before they fall down, when they fall down it will make Katrina look like a pleasant Sunday Afternoon.

I personally know people that were displaced from there, and it was much worse than the news and or cultural memory paint it to have been. If you are not prepared to act as your own 911 in a crisis, you're screwed.

Also, a few things to remember. The devastation was in an isolated area, there was plenty of forewarning and time to brace before the event, the area benefited from a massive emergency response from the rest of the nation, and it all occurred in relatively good economic times.

Remember, when the beast is at your door the police are only MINUTES away (my response time was often 10-15 going lights and sirens folks)

So, to sum up this rather lengthy post: Are we in for bad times ahead, assuredly yes. Will it break the Nation, sent us into the Apocalypse or civic collapse, I have no idea but hope not. In the meantime, be prudent and prepared. Set time aside to get ready for bad situations, but live a good life and don't hide in a silo in east Bumble-F with a tinfoil hat strapped on your head.

Invest in life skills that make you adaptable, develop the will to do what it takes to survive no matter what (both for yourself and those you love), develop strong interconnected communities that you can count on, and do what you can to relax and take a breath now and again.

Hope that helps,

Molon Labe

feeder wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future

Everyone living in the country pays into the system. It's an inescapable fact of living in a society.

This! But our country is kind of backwards. I worked part time barely scrapping by while i was in school and would have made MORE on unemployment or welfare. Our country is willing to pay for me to sit on my butt not working, but since i was a paramedic student which isn't a standard degree i couldn't get an ounce of government aid to get my license. So we will pay for a guy like me to sit at home but not to help educate them? Thats how i see it at least.

feeder wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future

Everyone living in the country pays into the system. It's an inescapable fact of living in a society.

Equally inescapable is that the illegal leach off the society. The EBT cards they get means they dont pay the tax we pay in day to day transactions.

 Spacemanvic wrote:

feeder wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future

Everyone living in the country pays into the system. It's an inescapable fact of living in a society.

Equally inescapable is that the illegal leach off the society. The EBT cards they get means they dont pay the tax we pay in day to day transactions.

What? Illegals get documentation saying they are illegal and don't pay sales tax? That is... odd.

feeder wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

feeder wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
But why do we give welfare to illegal immigrants at all?

Shouldn't that be reserved for our citizens? who have ostensibly paid into the system, or will in the future

Everyone living in the country pays into the system. It's an inescapable fact of living in a society.

Equally inescapable is that the illegal leach off the society. The EBT cards they get means they dont pay the tax we pay in day to day transactions.

What? Illegals get documentation saying they are illegal and don't pay sales tax? That is... odd.

An illegal paying with an EBT and claiming that they pay sales tax, is equal to the stupidity of taking a bucket of water from the deep end of the pool, pouring it into the shallow end and then beating on your chest as you exclaim " I am filling the pool!" That ranks up there with the logic " We have to pass the bill first to find out whats in it." If only a lib would pause long enough to think things through.....but then they'd have to think.......

Well those registered "illegals" are drawing their funds from the desist SS accounts that the government does not close out. Whatever funds from the interest that it collects are applied to the funding for the "illegal" immigrant". Subsidies are another ball of wax.

One never knows though in a collapse society who has their act together and knows what the Hell they are doing. For all I know the "illegal" immigrant a doctor in his country and not in ours. I sure won't turn him away. As for the other non skill labor "force" Hell we have a salvage/foraging team(s)

Nah... I wouldn't mind living here "in normal times".

Keep in mind water will always go "down"

 Jihadin wrote:
Keep in mind water will always go "down"

GREAT! Drinking water.

So where in the floor plan is the waste water recycling unit.....

 Jihadin wrote:
So where in the floor plan is the waste water recycling unit.....

The bottom floor...

Seriously, there's plethora of water retention strategies in a place like that.

I can be very creative on how to fill a hole with water......

 Jihadin wrote:
I can be very creative on how to fill a hole with water......

I'm sure you could.

But then again, I'd distract you with some beer and brauts.

Mission accomplish...now fire up the grill 8)

 Grey Templar wrote:
We no longer need a massive labor force in manufacturing jobs due to automation, and the labor we do need must be skilled.

These illegal immigrants are providing mostly unskilled labor, which is only of need in some fields such as Agriculture. Thus there is a disjoint between what Immigration is providing and what we need.

If that were true, then there would be no jobs for unskilled illegal immigrants. As they keep coming and keep finding employment, it's pretty clear your theory is wrong.

 whembly wrote:
Nah... I wouldn't mind living here "in normal times".

You won't have any cell phone reception. Depending on the structure you may also be reduced to land line internet.

Dont be daft, at he end of the world there will only be dial-up!