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marinekilla1 wrote:
I don't think Imperial Guard has women cause women can't give birth while fighting

Examples were, in fact, posted in this very thread!

 Lynata wrote:

marinekilla is probably a troll.

Hopefully. I'd hate to think otherwise.

Just to clarify for the guy spouting the baby machine nonsense. The Imperium does not need to pressure people to reproduce more, nor do they need to hold women from military service to make more babies. The Imperium is stated regularly to have an excess of people. There are worlds that recruit entirely on a voluntary basis, there are others (hive worlds for example) where they simply round up some of the millions to billions of excess unemployed unwanted people they have and sentence them to military service.
The Imperium maintains its numbers through self sustaining vast populations and by recruiting accross millions of worlds. Billions sacrificed everyday may seem like a lot until you realize that even if every pair of parents in the Imperium was producing only 2 to 3 kids (fairly standard numbers, at least for humans generally, one would expect that on most worlds the numbers would be higher) there would still be more than enough replacements being born.
Most Imperial worlds seem to actually have startlingly low mobilization rates, ie number in military compared to population (no citation, just thinking logically about the implications of having worlds of billions fielding a few million PDF and the like).

Melissia wrote:As.;... amuuuuuuuuuusing (and sad) as this conversation is, weren't we talking about guardspeople of the feminine persuasion earlier?

Melissa you're supposed to only use eight Us.

marinekilla1 wrote:Imperial Guardsmen die by the billions every second, in order to fill this quota, women have to be assigned to give births

I don't think Imperial Guard has women cause women can't give birth while fighting

In fact on most Imperial Worlds, women have to give birth to 5 sons or face sever punishments, in one planet, there was a prison of women who are chained down until they give birth to 10 sons

Lemme check through my novels, codices, and rulebooks.

Hmmm...nope, not a single reference to any such law in Imperial code.

And mixed gender regiments not only exist, but actually send the children that inevitably result from unions made over the permanent deployment most regiments have out into the field of fire to join their parents and older siblings once they reach the age of majority.

Effectively, an entire family will be going out to fight in the field of war, generation after generation, Father and Mother, Son and Daughter. It will keep on going until the family tree finally burns down in the field of battle.

Heck, the Tanith First and Only and Valhallan 597th, both well known regiments, are both mixed gender and the women are no less capable than the men. And if Ciaphas Cain is to be believed, the Commissar helps the new parents deal with well...being parents so that one day their children may join them and kill aliens and traitors for the Emperor.

Finally, the Imperium has nothing if not people to recruit in abundance. This is a polity with literally quadrillions if not quintillions of people with more being born every second than have ever lived on our Earth. The Imperium doesn't need to encourage births because it is already brimming with people.

In fact, only the Orks and Tyranids can be definitively said to outnumber the Imperium, everyone else is either iffy (no one is sure how many Necrons there really are), or definitively has significantly less manpower (Eldar, Tau, Chaos), and the Imperium continues to maintain a very positive growth rate population wise.

Kain wrote:And if Ciaphas Cain is to be believed

*snort*

Sorry, reflex.

 Lynata wrote:

Kain wrote:And if Ciaphas Cain is to be believed

*snort*

Sorry, reflex.

Ciaphas Cain is a somewhat satirical work you know. I always read it with the understanding that's it's a parody of 40k that realizes how fundamentally silly the entire premise is..

I read a lot of the sillier aspects of Cain as him bragging and inserting his own personal opinions while ignoring, forgetting, or just plain glossing over the facts, even if he refuses to admit it.

He is, after all, an inherently flawed and untrustworthy narrator.

 Melissia wrote:
I read a lot of the sillier aspects of Cain as him bragging and inserting his own personal opinions while ignoring, forgetting, or just plain glossing over the facts, even if he refuses to admit it.

Well that's an in-universe way of handling things.

Although I note Sandy hasn't touched the necrons post-retconning.

And now I kind of have to do mental gymnastics for why pariahs were on that Ice World.

You know - I would love Mitchell forever if he'd publish a book establishing that Cain's status as a Commissar was just a giant hoax; that he merely stole or otherwise appropriated the uniform to get out of some form of trouble, and then "just ran with it" when he got swept up in the Imperial war machinery. A 40k version of Germany's Captain of Köpenick, so to say. It would explain and save so many things.

Alas, never going to happen. But it would be oh so funny.

That would be hilarious, awesome, and epic.

And also totally within his character, too!

A lot of students in the Schola Progenium are orphans of Imperial Guardsmen. I always assumed that they came from male and female guardsmen relationships, although I suppose the chance of guardsmen having relationships off-duty is there, albeit slim in my opinion (since IG don't really get much off-duty time, I think)

They could also be children they had before they entered the Guard.

TiamatRoar wrote:
A lot of students in the Schola Progenium are orphans of Imperial Guardsmen. I always assumed that they came from male and female guardsmen relationships, although I suppose the chance of guardsmen having relationships off-duty is there, albeit slim in my opinion (since IG don't really get much off-duty time, I think)

If I recall correctly, Progenium students come from a wide variety of sources besides the IG. It can be any orphan whose parents were "Imperial servants", or something like that. Though, given the occupational hazard of being an IG, the profession would certainly contribute a lot.

 Kain wrote:
I always read it with the understanding that's it's a parody of 40k that realizes how fundamentally silly the entire premise is..

Probably the best way to go about reading it. I think it's easier to accept some of the more controversial stuff in there if you remember that one of thr author's main goals is to amuse the reader.

Mhm. Studio fluff unfortunately isn't very clear on who gets admitted into the Schola. It says "children of Imperial officials" and gives as examples the offspring of an IG Colonel as well as kids left behind by important Adepts who were ordered to transfer to a remote location. Whether or not the kids of some rank-and-file trooper would even be allowed into the Schola is questionable, especially as there is the Whiteshield fluff about a Guardsman's children being raised within the regiment and basically serving as direct reinforcements, born right into the grinder.

It could depend on social status (officers/nobility receiving preferential treatment, extending to their children), or it could depend on location/timing (Schola transfer only possible until the regiment leaves its homeworld), or both. It could even be different from one regiment to another (special deals with the Munitorum depending on the regiment's value and reputation), or depend on where exactly the regiment is deployed (availability of transport opportunities) ...

Several ways to interpret the material, I guess. I like the idea of the Schola being a bit selective and elitist when it comes to who is allowed in, but on the other hand the thought of a bunch of very young kids of common origin being herded through an odyssey spanning several planets, overcrowded transport nexuses and damp freighter hulls (including ample potential for raids, crippling/lethal accidents, slave trafficking or even simply "getting lost") until they finally arrive at the safe orphanage has a suitably grimdark ring to it, too.

 Lynata wrote:
Mhm. Studio fluff unfortunately isn't very clear on who gets admitted into the Schola. It says "children of Imperial officials" and gives as examples the offspring of an IG Colonel as well as kids left behind by important Adepts who were ordered to transfer to a remote location. Whether or not the kids of some rank-and-file trooper would even be allowed into the Schola is questionable, especially as there is the Whiteshield fluff about a Guardsman's children being raised within the regiment and basically serving as direct reinforcements, born right into the grinder.

It could depend on social status (officers/nobility receiving preferential treatment, extending to their children), or it could depend on location/timing (Schola transfer only possible until the regiment leaves its homeworld), or both. It could even be different from one regiment to another (special deals with the Munitorum depending on the regiment's value and reputation), or depend on where exactly the regiment is deployed (availability of transport opportunities) ...

Several ways to interpret the material, I guess. I like the idea of the Schola being a bit selective and elitist when it comes to who is allowed in, but on the other hand the thought of a bunch of very young kids of common origin being herded through an odyssey spanning several planets, overcrowded transport nexuses and damp freighter hulls (including ample potential for raids, crippling/lethal accidents, slave trafficking or even simply "getting lost") until they finally arrive at the safe orphanage has a suitably grimdark ring to it, too.

Hmm, yea. That's some good points and possibilities. Well, regardless of how that works, the mentioning of White Shields and children born right into the grinder that are raised within the regiment implies women in the guard too.

Well, technically it could of course refer to male troops interacting with female civilians in the warzone or the wagon train, or nearby their garrison ...

... but there's really sufficient references about women in the Guard all over the place. The Xenonian Free Companies have been mentioned in particular, and just yesterday I happened to read the following lines in the Medusa V global campaign PDF:

Governor Soloman stared open mouthed as the dark sky was pierced by the landing craft. Glowing brightly from their atmospheric entry, hundreds of bulk landers raced towards the war-torn planet. Most bore the drab livery of the Imperial Navy, their holds filled with the men and women of the Imperial Guard. Thousands of soldiers ready to fight and die for the Emperor. Others, fewer in number, had brighter, bolder heraldry. Soloman realised with a thrill that those were the landing craft of the Adeptus Astartes, bearing the finest warriors in the Imperium. Gods of war, the Space Marines were capable of defeating any foe. For a moment he felt his spirits lift as a flicker of hope sparked in his heart.
At his side, Inquisitor Baptiste snuffed it out. "There's not nearly enough", she said bluntly, her lavender eyes scanning the horizon. "Whatever foul work the Arch-enemy does here must be stopped at all costs, but do not fool yourself, Governor; this world will die. It just remains to be seen how many of us it takes with it."

The Uplifting Primer also says something similar, IIRC. Though throughout its default pronouns are male, it says "men and women of the Imperial Guard" once or twice.

The default pronoun in the English language when speaking about people is "him". It's just the usage of the language, and because we are, as a species, "the race of Man". It's a usage tradition that goes back quite a ways.

Incidentally, the gaming company White Wolf was one of the first to buck this trend in the early 90s, when it made the default pronoun the feminine in all its publications.

I noticed the feminine pronoun in the new Shadowrun rules, too. Surprising development.

Myself, I'm trying to use the neutral "their" whenever possible, unless something is specifically referring to either gender.

That being said, I would not at all be surprised if there are multiple languages on this Earth where the default pronoun is less gender-defined.

Troike wrote:The Uplifting Primer also says something similar, IIRC.

Hmm, now that you mention it ...
I'm just not promoting the Primer as it's not a direct studio publication, and some of its contents go strongly against what the Codex says. And no, I'm not referring to the funny bits of propaganda, but rather the idea that the Guard has any sort of standard about how many socks each trooper is issued and other such things.

(I still recommend that book to anyone, though, if only because it's quite simply a very entertaining read - and the prayer section is useful for 40k RPGs!)

 Psienesis wrote:
The default pronoun in the English language when speaking about people is "him". It's just the usage of the language, and because we are, as a species, "the race of Man"

Amusingly, "man" used to be non-gendered in English, with man, the gender, having its own noun.

Werman was male, and wiffman was female. Man referred to the species as a whole. It was changed later, or more likely evolved later over time (likely due to the social dominance over men, thus it was accepted that male is the default and female is the other).

Generally, in formal language, Man, capitalized, refers to the species, while man, lowercase, refers to the gender. It's stupid and dumb, but there's a lot of things about English which are stupid and dumb so... eh. These days, there's a movement that uses "they" as the singular "default" non-gendered pronoun. I prescribe to it myself (and "One" can similarly be used in specific contexts), although I'm sure (and hoping even) that some of my old English teachers woudl spin in their graves if they knew.

 Lynata wrote:

I'm just not promoting the Primer as it's not a direct studio publication, and some of its contents go strongly against what the Codex says. And no, I'm not referring to the funny bits of propaganda, but rather the idea that the Guard has any sort of standard about how many socks each trooper is issued and other such things.

It does say that each world's guardsmen can vary massively in its equipment. It appears "standard" because we're looking at the "standard" trooper, one from a Cadian regiment. It notes in the blurb that a Cadian regiment is being used as the model for it. See, as the IG is so massively diverse, a standard manual would have to be standardised too for practicality. We can assume that individual regiments have their own instructions on how to operate based on what said regiment is like.

But anyway, as a look at the culture of the organisation, it's useful. And certainly, it supports the point made about the IG having women.

Melissia wrote:Amusingly, "man" used to be non-gendered in English, with man, the gender, having its own noun.
Werman was male, and wiffman was female. Man referred to the species as a whole. It was changed later, or more likely evolved later over time (likely due to the social dominance over men, thus it was accepted that male is the default and female is the other).

Interesting. I did not know that.

OT:

Troike wrote:It does say that each world's guardsmen can vary massively in its equipment. It appears "standard" because we're looking at the "standard" trooper, one from a Cadian regiment. It notes in the blurb that a Cadian regiment is being used as the model for it. See, as the IG is so massively diverse, a standard manual would have to be standardised too for practicality. We can assume that individual regiments have their own instructions on how to operate based on what said regiment is like.

Oh, I would have less of a problem with it if it said something like "this book is issued only to regiments from planet so-and-so". But to me, with how it is actually printed and supposedly distributed, it gives the false impression that the Imperial Guard is way more standardised than it says in the studio material. To be precise, the book does not say that it would "vary massively" from world to world, the exact quote is "some details may differ" - from a table listing about 30 items. That's quite the difference, especially as (going by the Codex) the only standard piece of equipment is the lasgun, nothing else.
It may just be another piece of propaganda, or even just the bureaucracy operating independently from reality, but I don't think I'm alone in thinking that the vast majority of readers will not "get it", as (assuming it is meant as a joke) it is arguably less obvious than the funny bits about the various aliens and how they're no threat.

Also, when you say that regiments have their own instructions based on how they work (which is quite possible for formations recruited out of the PDF), doesn't that mean that a standardised catch-all manual would be redundant? To whom would it be issued?

To be precise, the book does not say that it would "vary massively" from world to world, the exact quote is "some details may differ"

That's Imperial bureaucracy for you.

 Lynata wrote:
Oh, I would have less of a problem with it if it said something like "this book is issued only to regiments from planet so-and-so". But to me, with how it is actually printed and supposedly distributed, it gives the false impression that the Imperial Guard is way more standardised than it says in the studio material

Like I said, it does note that the book is modelled on the Cadian 91st. I suppose it can be interpreted as the Munitorum trying to establish some sense of unity in the IG. If not with equipment then with litanies and basic survival skills, stuff like that.

 Lynata wrote:
(going by the Codex) the only standard piece of equipment is the lasgun, nothing else.

Really? What about vox casters, laspistols or grenades? I imagine that those are all very standard pieces of equipmnent too.

 Lynata wrote:
I don't think I'm alone in thinking that the vast majority of readers will not "get it", as (assuming it is meant as a joke) it is arguably less obvious than the funny bits about the various aliens and how they're no threat.

I will say, it's likely been influenced to some extent by the authors realising that this is for public consumption. As a standardised, "all-encompassing" book, it gives the reader an overview of the Imperial Guard. It would be a bit messy if it was both in-universe and tried to cater for every possible guard regiment.

 Lynata wrote:
Also, when you say that regiments have their own instructions based on how they work (which is quite possible for formations recruited out of the PDF), doesn't that mean that a standardised catch-all manual would be redundant?

Nah. They're all still using the same weapons, vehicles, will be fighting in any sort of terrain, ect. A lot of the stuff in there will be useful to most regiments, or is propaganda that the Munitorum wants all regiments to believe. And of course all regiments, in theory, have the same beliefs and such, so the litanies and prayers are applicable to any regiment.

The ways the do vary, usually in outfit or equipment (tactical variances seem to be covered already, the book mentions that absurdly big collection of tactical manuals) would probably be adapted to on a regiment by regiment basis. So one regiment might disregard what the book has to say about a piece of attaire that they do not use or have some vairiant of, subsituting their own practice for it. But ultimately, they could all be going to any warzone, are all meant to be of the same mindset and are using roughly the same equipment.

Troike wrote:Really? What about vox casters, laspistols or grenades? I imagine that those are all very standard pieces of equipmnent too.

Hmm, not according to that line - and personally, I could easily imagine some regiments having to rely on messengers (horse or bike), or foregoing pistols and grenades entirely. It all depends on where they come from and what their specialisation is.

But really, every trooper getting a lasgun, 4 power packs, 4 grenades, an autopistol-sidearm ... the autopistol alone makes little sense as it would need a very specific type of ammunition, something that will be hard to come by in the field. And even Cadians do not carry autopistols as part of their standard gear, else the trooper in the 3E Codex would not have had to loot his from an enemy. In fact, the text below that image makes it clear that this sort of equipment is non-standard.

And I've now noticed that the list of "standard" equipment in the Primer is 2 pages rather than a half one, so my earlier remark about 30 items should actually read ~80, out of whom "some may differ" between the various regiments...
I dunno about you, but that's just not the Imperial Guard I know.

 Lynata wrote:
I dunno about you, but that's just not the Imperial Guard I know.

After thinking about it, I think that the Infantryman's handbook still meshes with the way the Guard actually are (incredibly diverse). As I've touched upon, the content on stuff like how to take cover, fill out a Munitorum form or the various litanies will be applicable to any regiment, really. As for the equipment, I would again interpret that as the Munitorum trying to establish some sense of unity in the IG, probably a futile effort. Or they're trying to cater to the "average" Guard regiment.

 Lynata wrote:
and what their specialisation is.

As I've said, tactics seem to be a seperate issue, given that the Munitorum section mentions that huge collection of tactical documents that no man could ever actually read through completely. So from this, I guess we can infer that overall tactics are something that the IG have a lot of leeway over. So I'd imagine that if a Regiment is specialised/equiped in a way that doesn't mesh with what the handbook says, then they can just look to their own tactical doctrines.

Well, "Only War" lists the standard issue gear for most regiments. If I recall correctly, it's pretty similar for most regiments, the main exception being personal knives that might come from the home world depending on culture.

Only War isn't studio material, but I still think it's good stuff.

Troike wrote:As for the equipment, I would again interpret that as the Munitorum trying to establish some sense of unity in the IG, probably a futile effort. Or they're trying to cater to the "average" Guard regiment.

But what regiment gets such a huge range of gear? And autopistols? That doesn't even fit to the Cadians the document supposedly emulates, at least if one were to go by Codex fluff.

But that's just me nitpicking over details. I'm more concerned about fans being influenced by such material (an especially "serious" issue if you consider how many people still believe in "everything is canon") than the material itself. As I said, I still love the book and would recommend it to anyone.
I'm perfectly fine with it being regarded as just yet another humorous detail, as if your average Guardsman would look at the list and be like "What? We didn't get anything of this!" (although that still doesn't explain the autopistol)

It may also be that it simply depends a lot on how we interpret the idea of an "average" Guard regiment. For someone who thinks that ~half the IG works like Cadians, I could see the booklet being perfectly viable, but I "grew up" with those images in the 3E Codex (my 2nd 40k Codex ever! first one was Space Marines ) and they just left me with an impression that there is very little connecting them.

Someone on the FFG forums recently uploaded these scans - I think they illustrate neatly what I'm thinking about:


Huh, looks like Dneipr regiments have female tankers. Didn't notice that one before...

@Lynata

It's possible that each Primer is somewhat tailored to each regiment (As in, they have a Primer for a Barbarian regiment, one for a Mordian style regiment etc.). The Primer that's published would probably be for a more elite regiment from a world that can afford to issue handguns to all of it's members. Possibly an airborne regiment like the Fallschirmjaeger (Who were given pistols standard)?

Now, a possible reason it says all guardsman are equipped like this is simple: Propaganda. The Munitorum wants each guardsman to think that their comrades from other planets will be an elite fighting force like them so that they'll have higher confidence in the battles that lie ahead. You wouldn't be feeling good if your allies were all equipped with muskets, would you? They'd be a liability.

For more primitive regiments it probably says that other guardsman are equipped with muskets/rifles or whatever so that they don't feel intimidated/short changed. I wouldn't be very happy in a organization that gave everyone else super cool space guns while I got some boom stick. Unsatisfaction on that level could let to mutiny after all. I mean, sure, they'll know they suck eventually but at least by that point if they try to mutiny they'll be blown up by the other better equipped regiment.

Note, I am just guessing. It's just as possible that the Uplifting Primer really is that useless of a document for your "average" guardsman.

As for women in the guard, women can fire a gun and die horribly just as well as a man. Who cares if they produce more people? The Imperium has more people than they do power packs.