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ok so i'm sure this ain't anything new but i'll take a rehash at it anyway....

but my girlfriend has been playing new eldar using outflanking scorpions and a spirit seer. we looked in the rule book and came across this
PAGE 125 – RESERVES

Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.

so besides screwing over any outflanking cc unit it also got me wondering if psychic powers (ie. malediction and blessings) can or can't be used if you come from reserve ie. drop podding and deep striking as well.

another problem I have which adds a bit of contradiction is that in the rulebook FAQ they say that reserves and psyhic blessings/maledictions happen simultaneously and so you can choose the order in which they are done..... now does the rule on page 125 saying abilities and special rules can't be used put an end to the arguement and no blessings/maledictions or is the FAQ gw's way of saying psychic powers aren't considered abilities/special rules since they seems to be allowed at the same time as reserves.....

alot to process i know any views??

You can't use any psychic powers that happen at the beginning of the movement phase after arriving from reserves. You can, however, use a blessing on something that has arrived from reserves that turn, that is part of the point of the FAQ entry.

The FAQ refers to reserve ROLLS. The roll happens at the start of the turn, moving the reserve unit onto the board is after that, so there is no contradiction.

 l1ttlej wrote:
[...]so besides screwing over any outflanking cc unit it also got me wondering if psychic powers (ie. malediction and blessings) can or can't be used if you come from reserve ie. drop podding and deep striking as well.[...]

Just check page 67 of the BRB, "Manifesting Psychic Powers". It's pretty clear.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
The FAQ refers to reserve ROLLS. The roll happens at the start of the turn, moving the reserve unit onto the board is after that, so there is no contradiction.

The FAQ refers to reserve rolls and Outflanking rolls. Since start of psychic powers are used at the same time you roll Outflank sides (which happens when the unit arrives on the table), you can bring your units on then cast start of turn powers. You still cannot cast a start of turn power by a model/unit that just arrived.

The debate is whether making the rolls occurs at the same time as moving the units on the board. There is a clear lack of clearness there.

The clear part is the FAQ mentioning rolls, the arguement is the rolls are done directly before the placement of the units and there is no permission to break that, the flip side is the FAQ gives us permission by saying we can do powers or the rolls first.

There is no permission given to starting the movement phase by bringing reserves on then doing start of movement phase psyhic powers.


The point of the FAQ was to make powers like scriers gaze and the GK reserve power work as before reserves were start of turn and powers start of movement phase reading that the reserves rolls were done before anything making scriers gaze useless.

I'm not sure your stance on this Fragile, but I'll address it toy you anyway.

I have a Farseer on the table, two units of War Walkers Outflanking, and a Crimson Hunter coming in Reserves.
I successfully roll for all three units to come in.
Per the FAQ, reserve rolls, start of turn powers and Outflanking rolls are done at the same time (even though Outflank rolls have to be rolled after Reserve rolls, they all occur at the start of the turn).
I can legally bring in my Crimson Hunter, bring in one unit of Walkers via Outflank, cast powers and bring in my other unit of Walkers.

Personally Happy, I was of the mind that rolls and movement were one action. You rolled for a unit and then moved them on. Therefore you could later target that unit with blessings etc.. Now I am not so sure. Reading that section does not state that movement and the roll done at the same time. The statement that "If the roll is 3 or more, that unit arrives this Turn" makes me think that all the rolls are done first, then movement later.

Fragile wrote:
Personally Happy, I was of the mind that rolls and movement were one action. You rolled for a unit and then moved them on. Therefore you could later target that unit with blessings etc.. Now I am not so sure. Reading that section does not state that movement and the roll done at the same time. The statement that "If the roll is 3 or more, that unit arrives this Turn" makes me think that all the rolls are done first, then movement later.

And yet, it's simultaneous with outflank rolls - which are done when the unit moves on. Meaning that the move and the rolls are simultaneous.

Show where the roll=movement.

Outflanking states they come on as per Reserves, which lacks any rule that says anything other than the rolls.

Page 40 says that when an Outflanking unit arrives from reserves, you make the outflank roll.
The FAQ says that the outflank roll is simultaneous with reserve rolls (technically it must be sequential, but for the purposes of the rules they're simultaneous).

Since you make the outflank roll when you move models on, and the outflank roll is simultaneous with the reserve roll, moving models on is also simultaneous with the reserve rolls.

And moving models on is movement so no longer start of movement phase for casting powers. You are given the choice of doing reserve rolls you are not given permission to start the movement phase then use powers that have to be used at the start.

Your making a huge leap in logic there. Your equating the roll to see which board edge = Reserve roll. It does not.

Yea page 67 sums it all up (dunno how i missed that) thanx man

Fragile wrote:
Your making a huge leap in logic there. Your equating the roll to see which board edge = Reserve roll. It does not.

He isnt, it does say reserve rolls, outflank rolls etc iirc

I believe RAW the way I play it is correct, but I know there are others that do not believe so. It needs a clearer FAQ but sadly there hasnt been any in a while :(

MarkyMark wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your making a huge leap in logic there. Your equating the roll to see which board edge = Reserve roll. It does not.

He isnt, it does say reserve rolls, outflank rolls etc iirc

I believe RAW the way I play it is correct, but I know there are others that do not believe so. It needs a clearer FAQ but sadly there hasnt been any in a while :(

And what is an outflank roll ?

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 40 says that when an Outflanking unit arrives from reserves, you make the outflank roll.
The FAQ says that the outflank roll is simultaneous with reserve rolls (technically it must be sequential, but for the purposes of the rules they're simultaneous).

Since you make the outflank roll when you move models on, and the outflank roll is simultaneous with the reserve roll, moving models on is also simultaneous with the reserve rolls.

That whole argument hinges on the tenuous assertion that the outflank roll is simultaneous with actually moving the unit onto the board.

In game terms, events being simultaneous would mean that they could be performed in any order. As you cannot move the unit onto the board without first determining which side they arrive from, the events are clearly sequential, not simultaneous.

Basically, I firmly believe that once the actual movement of models begins, you have gone beyond the 'Start of the turn'.

Fragile wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your making a huge leap in logic there. Your equating the roll to see which board edge = Reserve roll. It does not.

He isnt, it does say reserve rolls, outflank rolls etc iirc

I believe RAW the way I play it is correct, but I know there are others that do not believe so. It needs a clearer FAQ but sadly there hasnt been any in a while :(

And what is an outflank roll ?

It's the thing that you do and then must immediately move units onto the board. You however don't have permission to roll, do something else and then move them on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Page 40 says that when an Outflanking unit arrives from reserves, you make the outflank roll.
The FAQ says that the outflank roll is simultaneous with reserve rolls (technically it must be sequential, but for the purposes of the rules they're simultaneous).

Since you make the outflank roll when you move models on, and the outflank roll is simultaneous with the reserve roll, moving models on is also simultaneous with the reserve rolls.

That whole argument hinges on the tenuous assertion that the outflank roll is simultaneous with actually moving the unit onto the board.

In game terms, events being simultaneous would mean that they could be performed in any order. As you cannot move the unit onto the board without first determining which side they arrive from, the events are clearly sequential, not simultaneous.

Basically, I firmly believe that once the actual movement of models begins, you have gone beyond the 'Start of the turn'.

Read outflank. The roll is when the unit "arrives from reserves" ie: is moving onto the board.

Fragile wrote:
Your making a huge leap in logic there. Your equating the roll to see which board edge = Reserve roll. It does not.

I never said that. Perhaps you missed the FAQ being referenced here?

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Blessings happen simultaneously with Reserve rolls, Outflank rolls, etc.
Outflank rolls happen when a unit moves onto the board.
Therefore a unit moving onto the board happens simultaneous with reserve rolls and blessings.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkyMark wrote:
And moving models on is movement so no longer start of movement phase for casting powers. You are given the choice of doing reserve rolls you are not given permission to start the movement phase then use powers that have to be used at the start.

Absolutely false. The FAQ allows you to make outflank rolls before casting.
What happens when you make outflank rolls?

Lol, we have been here before Rigeld, and we wont agree. For arguements sake, it says you can make a the roll as well as doing psyhic powers and reserves rolls at the same time, that is permission enough to take it as you can roll then do a power then do a outflank roll etc.

If you try and say I am breaking the outflank rules, what is your excuse for breaking the powers only at start of movement phase rule?. It is clear that moving units on from reserve is movement.

Either arguement will break a rule. Where is yours so specific that it takes perceedant?, there is no reason.

TL DR, outflank roll is something you can make at the same time as a psyhic power or reserve roll as per FAQ. Note thats Roll only.

And outflank rolls are done when the unit arrives. Therefore, if I have two units coming in, one of which is outflanking, I can bring in the non-outflanker, roll psychic powers, and then roll to see which side the outflanker comes in on.

MarkyMark wrote:

TL DR, outflank roll is something you can make at the same time as a psyhic power or reserve roll as per FAQ. Note thats Roll only.

"Rolls only " if you ignore the wording of outflank.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

TL DR, outflank roll is something you can make at the same time as a psyhic power or reserve roll as per FAQ. Note thats Roll only.

"Rolls only " if you ignore the wording of outflank.

And powers are start of movement, anything moving onto the board from reserves is past the start of the movement phase if you want to ignore that (and what i wrote above!)

MarkyMark wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

MarkyMark wrote:

TL DR, outflank roll is something you can make at the same time as a psyhic power or reserve roll as per FAQ. Note thats Roll only.

"Rolls only " if you ignore the wording of outflank.

And powers are start of movement, anything moving onto the board from reserves is past the start of the movement phase if you want to ignore that (and what i wrote above!)

Which is the same time as Reserve Rolls, Outflank Rolls, etc.

Which means, if you have two units outflanking and both successfully roll to come in, only one can come on the board.

MarkyMark wrote:
If you try and say I am breaking the outflank rules, what is your excuse for breaking the powers only at start of movement phase rule?. It is clear that moving units on from reserve is movement.

Nope, it's not clear.
Moving on from reserves is not normal movement. The FAQ and the BRB support my rule statements. What do you have to support yours?

TL DR, outflank roll is something you can make at the same time as a psyhic power or reserve roll as per FAQ. Note thats Roll only.

And again you've failed to present actual rules.

So is abnormal movment different from 'normal' movement, citation please.

Actual Rules, The FAQ is crystal.

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Reserve rolls, outflank rolls and psyhic powers can be done in any order the player choses as they are at the same time.

I doesn't matter if the movement is normal or not, what matters is when the roll is in the execution of outflanking. That is the important piece of the rules you seem to be missing.

MarkyMark wrote:
So is abnormal movment different from 'normal' movement, citation please.

Actual Rules, The FAQ is crystal.

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Reserve rolls, outflank rolls and psyhic powers can be done in any order the player choses as they are at the same time.

And what is simultaneous with outflank rolls?
Hint - when do you make outflank rolls?

I will repeat a point I made earlier. Events in a game can be simultaneous or sequential. Simultaneous would mean that the events could be resolved in any order. Sequential would mean that one event is dependent upon the result of another.

If an Outflank roll was truly simultaneous with moving the unit onto the board, you would be able to perform the actions in any order you choose. Two events cannot be simultaneous if they must be performed one after another, in a specific order.

Edited for clarity.