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Hey guys, I want to start off by saying, I know this list is probably not going to stack up against the toughest lists out there, including Necron flyer spam, Wave serpent spam, and Tau gunline and such forth. I would like to discuss why I think this build would be difficult to handle for most armies.

First the list:
HQ
Tervigon- 3 psychic powers, AG + TS, Cluster spines=210
Swarmlord-(1)Tyrant guard=340

Elite
Doom of Malan'tai-Spod=130
2 Zoanthrope-spod=160
2 Zoanthrope=120

Troops
5 Genestealers-TS; Broodlord-TS, ST=150
5 Genestealers-TS; Broodlord-TS, ST=150
5 Genestealers-TS; Broodlord-TS, ST=150
5 Genestealers-TS; Broodlord-TS, ST=150
Tervigon- 3 psychic powers, AG + TS, Cluster spines=210
16 gants=80

So, while the stealers got hit with the huge nerf bat this edition I believe that with access to Biomancy, Nids can cause HUGE problems for the majority of armies and lists out there. While there are some exceptions (listed above) here's what this list brings to the table that can be difficult to deal with:

1) The core of the army remains built around Tervigons. 2 Tervigons and Doom of Malan'Tai is a typical "competitive" nid list. This list twists it a bit. While 1 Tervigon is not scoring, it does generate scoring units. So depending on how I want to play with Swarmy against a particular opponent I can juggle around the warlord assignment. I can hide the Tervigon behind a LOS blocking piece of terrain and spit out objective holders. OR if my opponent can't effectively deal with a T9 Swarmlord, I'll send him right down the middle and feel confident that warlord is safe in his holding. The Doom is just a no brainer that will always cause a distraction. Even if it doesn't cause casualties your opponent MUST deal with it....

2) Yes, Genestealers themselves are not good. BUT what do MCs cost us? 200+ points for a good MC? A Broodlord (with Iron arm) can potentially be a T8 sargent. For what? 150 points? Look at the rest of his stats and your deathstar is trembling. He can pick out your IC in a challenge, he is immune to ID, not to mention he can ID most of Xenos ICs even with an average Iron arm roll (bringing him to S7). I know, I know. Your response is going to be: A broodlord isn't guaranteed Iron arm...Yeah, but 4 of them IS guaranteed (virtually). With 4 Broodlords all generating their psychic powers from the BRB you should feasibly be able to get 2 successful Iron arms. This doesn't mention the other useful abilities you can get (like Enfeeble, Warp speed, and Endurance).

3) The other thing that you can achieve with this list is ultimate flexibility. As some of you may or may not know, the Swarmlord not only boosts your reserve rolls, but he also allows you to re-roll your Outflanking result. This assumes you reserve your Genestealer broods. What if you infiltrate instead (which I will discuss further down)? We all know that you can't assault from reserves, so a common way to avoid this nerf is to infiltrate them. Well, one of the FAQs stated that while you cannot assault (going first) and infiltrating your genestealers, you CAN assault if you take the 2nd Turn. This is advantageous in many ways. First, you get the chance to claim objectives last. Next, you can respond to your opponents deployment (unless they have some ability to modify it after you've deployed). Lastly, if not all of your opponent's reserves arrive T2, you can influence their arrival by denying them ideal locations.

So, getting back to the infiltrating option (and why I like it so much). If you choose to infiltrate you genetealer broods into ruins/area terrain (lets assume 18" away from the enemy but the reality is that you probably could get at least 1 brood closer) and it isn't hard to claim a 4+ or 5+ cover save. However, what if you g2g? You're greater than 12" away, so you'll be gaining benefit from shrouded (if it's night fighting) so now when you g2g you'll be claiming a 2+ or 3+ save at the worst! You'll take a few casualties (be a few models closer to gaining majority toughness) and when it's your turn you can bring on the pain. By moving 1 of your Synapse units into range, you'll now be granting the unit fearless and due to FAQ, they act normally. So now a unit they thought to be harmless (because it went to ground) is now an issue again. Imagine 4 of these units doing this. 2 of which have T6-8 creatures in them.

4)The Swarmlord. It deserves an entire discussion to itself. A T6 but more than likely T7-8 MC with 5 wounds and a 4++ in combat. A 18" synapse bubble, can confer Furious charge, preferred enemy, or another random one that doesn't matter to a unit within 18", it inflicts ID, he causes successful invuln saves to be rerolled, and it's typically accompanied by a guard who can tank 2 wounds for him. So why is it so awesome? Most armies will avoid it. Try to shoot it down. Some are good at it (Dark Eldar), but most can't handle it so he creates AT LEAST a 18" no-go zone bubble. No reserves will risk entry near it. He causes Fear, so even if you attempt to tarpit it, your tarpit has to pass the Fear test. The most important thing about The Swarmlord is his board presence. Hands down, the most effective way to win is to control your opponent and the SL does it best.

So now we've discussed the core of the army ( 2 Tervigons, Doom of Malan'Tai) the genestealers (more importantly the Broodlord)and the Swarmlord. Finally, the Zoanthropes

5) The Zoanthropes. Another unit with ultimate flexibility. Wait, your opponent is Heavy armor? Keep book powers. Your opponent is Flyer heavy? Roll for OM. You want to add resilience to your Broodlords (and less importantly the genestealers) roll Biomancy, shoot for Endurance. Opponent has lots of low LD units? Take primaris psychic shriek. Just about anything you can think of these guys are good for. Albeit not at the same time, but they can be tailored to what your opponent is bringing without needing to change your list. Yeah that T4 is a juicy target to ID, but the 3++ is pretty effective at bouncing off a few pot shots here or there. This leads me to my final point....

6) Target priority. This list does an amazing job at messing with your opponent's target priority. Do you want to shoot heavy weaponry at the MCs? Your forgetting about the threats that you'll have to deal with more quickly. What about if you attempt to deal with the genestealer threats and don't do enough to them due to their 2+/3+ Cv? Now you're going to have to deal with the MCs AND the Genestealers. What do you do when the Zoans and Doom of Malan'Tai arrive? They are surprisingly resilient to heavy weapons too so now you have to divert attention to them.

I'd like some feedback/discussion as to why or why not this would be viable in the competitive environment. Feel free to point out flaws or present lists that will slaughter this one. I know they're out there.

Anyone have thoughts on this? I'm gonna try to play it this weekend to test it out.

I like the idea of looking for Iron Arm on Broodlords, but the list in general is severely lacking in AA. I think a Hive Commander Flyrant would serve you better here than the Swarmlord, just for some AA.

I don't think it is the most competitive Nid Build, but think it has some potential. Best part about a Broodlord with Iron Arm is that he is scoring.

Good list here is a suggestion: drop the, adrenel glands, cluster spines (unless already on the model), the zoanthrope spore pod, and minimize the gaunts to 10. roll all those extra points into more Genestealers. I'm afraid the Genestealers may not make it to the 2nd turn, some of the broodlords will just not the squads.

Zagman wrote:I like the idea of looking for Iron Arm on Broodlords, but the list in general is severely lacking in AA. I think a Hive Commander Flyrant would serve you better here than the Swarmlord, just for some AA.

I don't think it is the most competitive Nid Build, but think it has some potential. Best part about a Broodlord with Iron Arm is that he is scoring.

Yeah, I agree. The lack of AA is apparent, my hope is that I don't need it. With enough spawned gants and a clutter board I should be able to control flyer placement...at least I hope :-/

Rune Stonegrinder wrote:Good list here is a suggestion: drop the, adrenel glands, cluster spines (unless already on the model), the zoanthrope spore pod, and minimize the gaunts to 10. roll all those extra points into more Genestealers. I'm afraid the Genestealers may not make it to the 2nd turn, some of the broodlords will just not the squads.

The genestealers are really there as ablative wounds to the Broodlords. They aren't meant to make it to combat, just to unlock the Broodlord (and similarily a super tough non-MC). If they make it to combat, it'll be a plus.

i was thinking he meant a whole nother squad including broodlord... but im probally wrong

Broodlords are essentially cheap Trygons with higher Initiative.

zaak wrote:
Broodlords are essentially cheap Trygons with higher Initiative.

Ehhhh that might be a stretch...Trygons have twice the wounds at T6. IF a Broodlord gets Iron Arm and gets at least T7 or 8 every turn then he'd be closer...Broodlord doesn't get to reroll his hits in combat, nor does he have AP2 attacks. He does however rend on 6s which you do get to reroll wounds for.

His save is only a 4+ so I'm really relying on high T from Iron arm or Endurance to keep him alive. Maybe both.

However, I do see your point. For~65 points you're getting one lean mean fighting machine.

Honestly I would drop the SL and drop the HQ tervigon for 2 flyrants giving this list great AA and some more stuff that has to be taken care of. 1 tervigon is actually good ive had games where I spawned 10+ every round including round 6-7

Jpat1213 wrote:
Honestly I would drop the SL and drop the HQ tervigon for 2 flyrants giving this list great AA and some more stuff that has to be taken care of. 1 tervigon is actually good ive had games where I spawned 10+ every round including round 6-7

That may be true, however, I'm hoping to have most of my troops in combat by the time the flyers arrive. Additionally, having 1 Tervigon almost guarantees you to go into early menopause the first time you spawn. Yeah, you'll have games where you'll keep spawning but you can't count on that happening.

The SL adds additional synergy to the list whereas dual flyrants will add additional target priority issues. Yes, while they are great, they don't synergize with the list well (theoretically). I'm gonna play this list this weekend and see how it goes.

Just hope you dont play vs flyers because you will cry to your mommy when that heldrake starts picking off your squads

That may be true, but again, I intend to be in CC when they arrive. So their viable targets will be Tervgions or Swarmlord (assuming they zoom) and if they hover they're asking to go down in flames.

Can they go into hover? I don't even remember...

yes

3 heldrake could be a problem but that is a problem for any nids list, not just this one. even 2 flyrants would have major issues dealing with 3 heldrakes.
That being said I would try to go for a flyrant instead of a HQ Tervigon, this would synergize well with the list as its a good high priority target and helps with the AA issue of the list, you already have lots of troops so losing a few spawned gaunt squad should be acceptable, I think it would be a more solid choice than a Tervigon.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
3 heldrake could be a problem but that is a problem for any nids list, not just this one. even 2 flyrants would have major issues dealing with 3 heldrakes.
That being said I would try to go for a flyrant instead of a HQ Tervigon, this would synergize well with the list as its a good high priority target and helps with the AA issue of the list, you already have lots of troops so losing a few spawned gaunt squad should be acceptable, I think it would be a more solid choice than a Tervigon.

If I take the suggested Flyrant, I'm over by 25 points (after reducing gant unit to minumum). What else do you suggest cutting? The pod for the 2nd Zoanthrope unit?

I have a very similar list with 3 trygon primes rather than second terv and gaunts but its 2k not 1850.

Tervs work well with trygon primes, cast onslaught and see what happens...

Move, shoot, run and charge same turn, especially good when you cast iron arm and endurance on it as well.

Pretty much unstoppable.

Shingen wrote:
I have a very similar list with 3 trygon primes rather than second terv and gaunts but its 2k not 1850.

Tervs work well with trygon primes, cast onslaught and see what happens...

Move, shoot, run and charge same turn, especially good when you cast iron arm and endurance on it as well.

Pretty much unstoppable.

Unfortunately, there are 2 flaws in your strategy (which was possible in 5th Edition.) 1) No unit in the game can EVER Run in the shooting phase and then chargein the assault phase. Secondly, Iron arm is only accessible to the psyker who casts it. The only possible target being itself. Tyrgons can't be Iron armed...


I wish it weren't true!

True that my bad, was watching tv when I wrote that


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You are wrong about the run and shoot though.

I have the Nid codex in front of me.

If you cast it on a model it can run and shoot and can charge if it has the fleet special rule.

take out the AG and 3rd power on scoring tervigon just keep catalyst to give feel no pain to himself or swarmy


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also if you take out the scytal and TS from Genestealer teams you could have enough points to get an extra zoan in each zoan teams

I'd say it's tournament viability is SEVERELY hampered by trying to manage 27 psychic powers across 12 psykers. I've played Nids for 3 years and played as many games against them, and never once finished a game with or against that many psykers.

Most 1850pts events allows 2hrs or 2.5 which simply isn't enough time to roll all the powers, write them down, and use them over the course of 5-7 turns.

Broodlords cannot use psychic shooting attacks and you cannot reroll the results when you end up with haemorrhage or life leech from biomancy. Going for iron arm on them often leaves you with unusable powers. Tervigons can roll 3 times but only use 1 per turn.

If you swap out the zoan's lances and blasts, you end up with a list with tons of psykers but very little ability to actually kill things. The commando genestealer squads won't kill much , even if you get iron arm. Swarmy is killy but slow. Tervigons are slow. There's no shooting worth anything and you'll be out assaulted by daemons and CSM (except swarmy).

So again I'd say no, not viable.

If you insist on running it despite the record keeping nightmare and lack of damage output, I'd roll a large portion of your powers on telepathy. Everyone except swarmy is ML1 so rerolls invis and hallucinate so you're actually rolling on 4 powers. Puppet master gives you more damage output if your opponent brought riptides or wraithknights. Dominate will keep you alive longer, and terrify can actually wipe out entire units if used properly. Against Tau or Daemons (or anything with low leadership), having psychic shriek on all the non broodlords will cause a lot of damage as well.

I like the idea of terrify with enfeeble. Now how would we do that

Shingen wrote:
True that my bad, was watching tv when I wrote that


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You are wrong about the run and shoot though.

I have the Nid codex in front of me.

If you cast it on a model it can run and shoot and can charge if it has the fleet special rule.

Wait what? Fleet grants the ability to charge after running? Maybe I am having a multiple day brain fart, but doesn't fleet just grant the ability to reroll 1, 2, or all dice when running/ charging?

 hyv3mynd wrote:
I'd say it's tournament viability is SEVERELY hampered by trying to manage 27 psychic powers across 12 psykers. I've played Nids for 3 years and played as many games against them, and never once finished a game with or against that many psykers.

Most 1850pts events allows 2hrs or 2.5 which simply isn't enough time to roll all the powers, write them down, and use them over the course of 5-7 turns.

Broodlords cannot use psychic shooting attacks and you cannot reroll the results when you end up with haemorrhage or life leech from biomancy. Going for iron arm on them often leaves you with unusable powers. Tervigons can roll 3 times but only use 1 per turn.

If you swap out the zoan's lances and blasts, you end up with a list with tons of psykers but very little ability to actually kill things. The commando genestealer squads won't kill much , even if you get iron arm. Swarmy is killy but slow. Tervigons are slow. There's no shooting worth anything and you'll be out assaulted by daemons and CSM (except swarmy).

So again I'd say no, not viable.

If you insist on running it despite the record keeping nightmare and lack of damage output, I'd roll a large portion of your powers on telepathy. Everyone except swarmy is ML1 so rerolls invis and hallucinate so you're actually rolling on 4 powers. Puppet master gives you more damage output if your opponent brought riptides or wraithknights. Dominate will keep you alive longer, and terrify can actually wipe out entire units if used properly. Against Tau or Daemons (or anything with low leadership), having psychic shriek on all the non broodlords will cause a lot of damage as well.

I agree with the record keeping of this game will suck , but I do have a damn good system that involves using markers that indicate what psychic powers each Psyker has, along with markers that indicate which powers are active and the result.

Even with these shortcuts I have implemented, these games would be very drawn out...yes.

However, being out assaulted by daemons and CSM? How? A Broodlord by himself can typically wipe most Meq units with ease, how would Deamons manage any better? The matchup that I KNOW would be painful is DE, Due to the access to poison.

I agree for the most part otherwise though. Maybe not viable in tournament play, but I think it'd be lots of fun and tough to beat in pickup games

Two things.

1. From the Tyranid FAQ: Page 62 – Tyranid Psychic Powers, Onslaught.
Change the last sentence to read “A unit under the effect of
Onslaught may not charge that turn.”

2. While I don't think most people play it this way, you are supposed to choose who your Warlord is when you build your army. Not at the start of the game.

 Happyjew wrote:
Two things.

1. From the Tyranid FAQ: Page 62 – Tyranid Psychic Powers, Onslaught.
Change the last sentence to read “A unit under the effect of
Onslaught may not charge that turn.”

2. While I don't think most people play it this way, you are supposed to choose who your Warlord is when you build your army. Not at the start of the game.

Thanks for pointing those out. I knew #1 had to be right, I've made that mistake before. #2 I guess now that you mention it, list building programs will typically ask you to adding warlord, Dang on that one.

Thanks for the clarifications!

The list just doesn't sound that scary from someone who plays: Wolves, Crons, Sisters, GK.

Any of those four armies is going to bring enough A) Firepower or B) shennanigans to basically ignore most of what you're doing. |

Those Genestealers aren't going to make it into a fight and nothing is scaring me outside of the typical Doom n stuff. (One reason I'm starting to bring the Icarus Lascannon + Prescience, screw that guy). You have nothing that's in my face distracting me that is going to be super hard for me to take down.

Ditch Zoes' for Trygons and get a Hive Commander Flyrant as folks are saying, then you got pressure.

Or a "Distraction Carnifx," in the form of some derpy cheap~ish Fex that pods in and suddenly I gotta start choosing between the little broodlords scampering up or this fat ass in my deployment zone.

Grav gruns will ruin your day and as they are the new you will see them 2 games of every tournament almost garunteed.

Grav guns will be terrible vs this army. They have 3 targets, so you can easily dictate where he will move with them. The Grav guns are useless against GS (5+ save for the win) and they won't get shots in at the broodlords. EVen then they have 3 wounds. They wont hurt zoanthropes and they wont get close enough for tervigons. Having grav guns also reduces the amount of melta you bring to insta death the doom, and god help the person that has no strength 8 plus to deal with him. I fail to see how Grav weapons will help much?

I used the list this morning and here's the synopsis:

The genestealers units didn't have any help with LoS blocking terrain so their 18" deployment wasn't particularly disturbing for my opponent who played footdar. Plenty of endurance to be spread around...2 of the 4 Broodlords had Iron Arm.

Tyranids got first turn, so all powers were cast. No first blood was given up and 1 unit of genestealers weathered a round of shooting from a 10 strong unit of guardians, a unit of 6 reapers, and a unit of snipers while only losing 2 genestealers and a wound or 2 off of the BL. I made the mistake of leading the units with my broodlords and failed too many LoS rolls.

Biggest problem with this list (and especially with this match) the psychic powers made the game go waaaaaaaayyyy too slow. With Eldar casting every turn and Tyranids casting every turn we only got through turn 2 :-(.

Result: moving to another test list that still incorporates the genestealers G2G tactics. Looks like this:

HQ
Flyrant w/dual BL devourers=260
Swarmlord with guard = 340

Elite
Doom of malantai in spod = 130

Troops
5 Genstealers with Broodlord
Toxin sacs on both type Scything talons on BL=150
10 Termagants=50
10 Termagants=50
Tervigon
3 Psychic powers, cluster spines, toxin sacs=200
Tervigon
3 psychic powers, cluster spines, toxins sacs and adrenal glands=210

Heavy support
Dakkafex in spod=230
Dakkafex in spod=230

Total: 1850

I ease off of the shenanigans but have added some more offensive capability.

Let me know what you guys think!!

Can someone verify these;
~Can assault from Infiltrate if you go second
~Can assault from Infiltrate if you go second *and* go to ground during the other player's first shooting phase.

To the first -Yes as far as I know that is still correct. You cannot, however, infiltrate and assault if your have first turn.

To the second-Yes. This second is dependent on the first being correct, so if I am off base there then I'd be incorrect here...the key to this strategy is to make sure you have a synapse unit close, but just out of range and g2g. Te next important step is to move the synapse unit before to re establish synapse to the genestealers.