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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/09 02:36:48
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Executing Exarch
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I never said they have no monetary value. In fact my entire question is what is the value of a human life in 40K?
Having said that you are considering a value model based upon a world view similar to our world. aka you are considering it where the people's time and the planet's energy could be traded for some unspecified amount of any produced substance in the IoM. I am pointing out that this may not be true. It is entirely possible for planet's to go for years without being able to trade with the IoM. This creates an interesting economic model where the value of the planet to the IoM is worth 0 in its current state and has no predictable potential worth. This is similar to the idea of the worth of the lives of the people in the Antarctic to the people of Bangladesh is essentially zero during the stone ages. The value of an individual's life to their community is usually much greater than to a nation, or a world, or a galaxy.
Another interesting phenomenon is that in 40K the bodies themselves do have a value if there is servitor tech available. The individuals literally have a worth to be mind-wiped and used as calculators.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 00:04:30
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Human lives are an astoundingly plentiful, and easily replenished, resource in the 42nd millennium. Individually, their value is very, very low, on average, excepting certain very unique situations and scenarios.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 00:47:43
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Douglas Bader
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ansacs wrote:Having said that you are considering a value model based upon a world view similar to our world. aka you are considering it where the people's time and the planet's energy could be traded for some unspecified amount of any produced substance in the IoM. I am pointing out that this may not be true. It is entirely possible for planet's to go for years without being able to trade with the IoM. This creates an interesting economic model where the value of the planet to the IoM is worth 0 in its current state and has no predictable potential worth. This is similar to the idea of the worth of the lives of the people in the Antarctic to the people of Bangladesh is essentially zero during the stone ages. The value of an individual's life to their community is usually much greater than to a nation, or a world, or a galaxy.
The problem with that idea is that you're confusing moral worth and practical worth. Humans, even in our world, have little or no practical value. Other than a few trained experts (engineers, scientists, doctors, etc) whose value is based on the cost of replacing them the average person is worthless. If you don't have specialized training you can be replaced with negligible effort, and even most trained workers aren't all that hard to replace. Where people do have worth in our world is their moral value. We, as a society, believe that individual people have a right to live and value that right. We don't say that bombing a school to kill a suspected enemy is wrong because of the financial damage, we say it's wrong because you just murdered innocent children.
So, in your example the whole trade argument is irrelevant. Moral worth, the primary factor involved in "the worth of a human life", has absolutely nothing to do with the practical value you can extract from having that life continue to exist. Even a planet you can't trade effectively with should still have moral worth. The fact that the Imperium disagrees and places little or no moral value on human life is one of the reasons it's such an evil organization.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 01:23:36
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Some Imperial Propaganda at least places a lot of moral value on human life, though. If you read tons of fluff pieces, they always include lines like "saved the loyal civilians", "Thanks to their efforts, tons of innocent lives were rescued", etc etc. For the most part, it appears the Imperium at least tries to pretend it values innocent lives a little for moral reasons. And that's assuming the fluff wording is propaganda. If the fluff wording is meant to be taken from an actual honest perspective of what the "Imperium" really feels, then the Imperium really DOES value lives at a moral level. It just is willing to do a lot of "I did what I had to do" in that case.
Here's the Inquisition report on the Siege of Vraks, for example:
"Herein follows an examination of the most lamentable Siege of Vraks, bastion and Armoury World of his most Divine Emperor, of the plans of those treacherous and heretical rebels that led to its downfall and the glorious sacrifice of the Emperor's Imperial Guard among the grim and hardy regiments of Krieg, and those misguided Mortals who have unwittingly venerated the Powers of Chaos, at a terrible cost in blood, but worst still - to the eternal damnation of their own souls."
As you can see, at least this inquisitor feels that the cost of the souls was worse than the cost of blood.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/09/10 01:29:44
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 01:31:23
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
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The other thing to consider is that the societal cost of feeding people is more or less fixed unless you're planning to starve certain segments. People get replaced automatically. Two people have sex, make baby, new person. It would take monumental efforts of social engineering to stop that cycle. Do you think society benefits from a welfare mother having 8 kids? Of course not. But she is going to do it anyway. Even a stable family like the Duggars isn't creating any net value for society by having 18 or whatever kids they finally ended up popping out of her clown car womb.
So you're going to have a more or less continual supply of people, and figuring out how to feed them will be a fixed and assumed cost. That, however, doesn't mean each individual person actual holds the value that it costs to produce them. I'd imagine most people in 40K are being operated at a loss, so throwing them away in Tithes to the Guard is just reducing overhead, lol.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 02:43:31
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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TiamatRoar wrote:For the most part, it appears the Imperium at least tries to pretend it values innocent lives a little for moral reasons.
Oh yes, it has to - humanity as a whole is the chosen species, after all. The bloody wars of conquest, the massive efforts spent on holding key worlds in the galactic theatre, everything revolves around saving humanity's place amongst the stars, and ultimately mankind as a whole. So I'd say that the single life, that of the individual soldier or civilian, is worth very little to the Imperium. However, "civilians" as a whole, the population of a city or an entire world, or generally any larger group of people suddenly begin to transcend this individual replaceability and to symbolically stand for "humans" as a whole. You can afford to waste hundreds or thousands of lives in the pursuit of the Imperium's greater good - but at some point, you do have to think about mankind as a whole.
Similarly, even an entire planet can be sacrificed, if this sacrifice is done to help preserve humanity as a species (and as represented by the Imperium of Man).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/10 02:44:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 03:09:12
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Executing Exarch
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TiamatRoar wrote:Some Imperial Propaganda at least places a lot of moral value on human life, though. If you read tons of fluff pieces, they always include lines like "saved the loyal civilians", "Thanks to their efforts, tons of innocent lives were rescued", etc etc. For the most part, it appears the Imperium at least tries to pretend it values innocent lives a little for moral reasons. And that's assuming the fluff wording is propaganda. If the fluff wording is meant to be taken from an actual honest perspective of what the "Imperium" really feels, then the Imperium really DOES value lives at a moral level. It just is willing to do a lot of "I did what I had to do" in that case.
Here's the Inquisition report on the Siege of Vraks, for example:
"Herein follows an examination of the most lamentable Siege of Vraks, bastion and Armoury World of his most Divine Emperor, of the plans of those treacherous and heretical rebels that led to its downfall and the glorious sacrifice of the Emperor's Imperial Guard among the grim and hardy regiments of Krieg, and those misguided Mortals who have unwittingly venerated the Powers of Chaos, at a terrible cost in blood, but worst still - to the eternal damnation of their own souls."
As you can see, at least this inquisitor feels that the cost of the souls was worse than the cost of blood.
Interesting thing about that is they seemingly assign little to no moral value to the lives of the Krieg trainees. If you read the walking dead you learn that a common training is to send 2 bands of 12 year old krieg soldiers into the fallout and have them fight with live weapons until one group wins...supposedly less than half survive. I am therefore assuming this is propaganda as the IoM goes to rather great lengths not to expose what they do on worlds like Krieg.
That is a great quote though. Perhaps the souls of the people are what he bemoans as they went to fuel the chaos gods?
Peregrine wrote:The problem with that idea is that you're confusing moral worth and practical worth. Humans, even in our world, have little or no practical value. Other than a few trained experts (engineers, scientists, doctors, etc) whose value is based on the cost of replacing them the average person is worthless. If you don't have specialized training you can be replaced with negligible effort, and even most trained workers aren't all that hard to replace. Where people do have worth in our world is their moral value. We, as a society, believe that individual people have a right to live and value that right. We don't say that bombing a school to kill a suspected enemy is wrong because of the financial damage, we say it's wrong because you just murdered innocent children.
So, in your example the whole trade argument is irrelevant. Moral worth, the primary factor involved in "the worth of a human life", has absolutely nothing to do with the practical value you can extract from having that life continue to exist. Even a planet you can't trade effectively with should still have moral worth. The fact that the Imperium disagrees and places little or no moral value on human life is one of the reasons it's such an evil organization.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The other thing to consider is that the societal cost of feeding people is more or less fixed unless you're planning to starve certain segments. People get replaced automatically. Two people have sex, make baby, new person. It would take monumental efforts of social engineering to stop that cycle. Do you think society benefits from a welfare mother having 8 kids? Of course not. But she is going to do it anyway. Even a stable family like the Duggars isn't creating any net value for society by having 18 or whatever kids they finally ended up popping out of her clown car womb.
So you're going to have a more or less continual supply of people, and figuring out how to feed them will be a fixed and assumed cost. That, however, doesn't mean each individual person actual holds the value that it costs to produce them. I'd imagine most people in 40K are being operated at a loss, so throwing them away in Tithes to the Guard is just reducing overhead, lol.
Actually there is a monetary value to a human life. If there was not a monetary value to a human life then slave markets would neither exist today nor have ever existed.
Or in other words even an untrained worker has a monetary value to their lives in that they can perform work for the cost of food. The monetary value of an individual changes depending on their ability for their work to be used and distributed through their society. This is why training is so important as it increases your utility. Speaking of the young and their monetary value is a discussion of future prospecting (very similar to investing in futures). Those children can return your investment if you apply said investment wisely. Some cultures have historically not valued peoples lives morally yet still they continued to have children. They were much more selective of if they "invested" in the child and said cultures usually had a hill they left children they deemed "bad investments".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 03:39:39
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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ansacs wrote:TiamatRoar wrote:Some Imperial Propaganda at least places a lot of moral value on human life, though. If you read tons of fluff pieces, they always include lines like "saved the loyal civilians", "Thanks to their efforts, tons of innocent lives were rescued", etc etc. For the most part, it appears the Imperium at least tries to pretend it values innocent lives a little for moral reasons. And that's assuming the fluff wording is propaganda. If the fluff wording is meant to be taken from an actual honest perspective of what the "Imperium" really feels, then the Imperium really DOES value lives at a moral level. It just is willing to do a lot of "I did what I had to do" in that case.
Here's the Inquisition report on the Siege of Vraks, for example:
"Herein follows an examination of the most lamentable Siege of Vraks, bastion and Armoury World of his most Divine Emperor, of the plans of those treacherous and heretical rebels that led to its downfall and the glorious sacrifice of the Emperor's Imperial Guard among the grim and hardy regiments of Krieg, and those misguided Mortals who have unwittingly venerated the Powers of Chaos, at a terrible cost in blood, but worst still - to the eternal damnation of their own souls."
As you can see, at least this inquisitor feels that the cost of the souls was worse than the cost of blood.
Interesting thing about that is they seemingly assign little to no moral value to the lives of the Krieg trainees. If you read the walking dead you learn that a common training is to send 2 bands of 12 year old krieg soldiers into the fallout and have them fight with live weapons until one group wins...supposedly less than half survive. I am therefore assuming this is propaganda as the IoM goes to rather great lengths not to expose what they do on worlds like Krieg.
That is a great quote though. Perhaps the souls of the people are what he bemoans as they went to fuel the chaos gods?
I can't help but think that you're looking at this a bit too pessimistically. Sometimes lamenting a tragic incident that led to eternal damnation of many imperial citizens' souls and thanking your soldiers for being grim and hardy and selflessly willing to sacrifice themselves against such a thing is simply just that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/10 03:40:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/10 04:08:53
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Executing Exarch
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TiamatRoar wrote:
I can't help but think that you're looking at this a bit too pessimistically. Sometimes lamenting a tragic incident that led to eternal damnation of many imperial citizens' souls and thanking your soldiers for being grim and hardy and selflessly willing to sacrifice themselves against such a thing is simply just that.
Perhaps...but then again this is grim dark so perhaps I am being too optimistic. I also here optimism in grimdark is extra heretical.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/11 23:35:06
Subject: Re:40K; The worth of a human life.
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Hauptmann
Hogtown
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Lynata wrote:Melissia wrote:TheSaintofKilllers wrote:a standard battle brother will kill an entire Ork war band if he's smart and uses hit and run tactics
Not a "standard" battle brother. They die all the time to Orks.
Well, he could refer to the Space Marine videogame. According to its makers, a single Space Marine could defeat a million of Orks!
And these days, I actually believe that "most fluff" does indeed make the Marines that awesome - though that is just because "most fluff" these days comes from Black Library novels rather than GW's own books, and arguably novels that have larger-than-life heroes with plot armour sell better to the fans than the protagonist dying on page 5. This isn't something unique to the Space Marines, either ... it just affects them more because 90% of BL's books are about them. Look at how Gaunt's Ghosts dispatch CSMs by the dozen and we get an idea how Marines might be perceived if most books were about the Imperial Guard.
What? The only time a recall the Ghosts ever going head to head with power armour (aside from a main villain on one occasion) was during the Gereon mission. If I remember correctly everyone freaked the feth out and gak their pants and they only got out of the mess through determination and blind luck.
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Thought for the day |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/11 23:54:12
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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IIRC, the HH series of novels makes the claim that a Space Marine is worth 10 regular soldiers of the Imperial Army.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/12 00:09:40
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Confessor Of Sins
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As for the value of life, at least some Imperial Commanders seem to think they're supposed to save civilians if possible. There's at least two reports from the Armageddon campaign where others (an SoB Canoness and some IG officer) complains about how marines (Fleshtearers and Marines Malevolent) caused heavy collateral damage. The BA successors apparently let their Death Company loose on some orks attacking an outpost and they killed not only the orks but the local human militia too. And the MM started shelling a refugee camp orks had gotten into, killing 4000+ civilians along with the orks.
The human life isn't valuable because of some moral thing though, it's valuable because imperial dogma is that humanity will rule the galaxy. Killing perfectly good humans without a good reason sets that goal back, which is heresy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/12 04:14:46
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Depraved Slaanesh Chaos Lord
Inside Yvraine
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Psienesis wrote:IIRC, the HH series of novels makes the claim that a Space Marine is worth 10 regular soldiers of the Imperial Army.
The actual statement in question is from Rogal Dorn, saying that he'd take one space marine over ten Imperial Army troopers. edit- CSM have never been dispatched "by the dozen" in the Ghost's series. The Ghosts have only fought CSM on two separate occasions- in the first novel, where three were killed fighting the combined might of two regiments, and Gareon, where they did indeeed get crapped on in lulzy ways. But it's ridiculous to look at the Ghost series as a gauge of space marine treatmeant- Salvation's Reach has three space marines literally slaughter their way through an entire space station of troops by running down a long corridor shooting their bolters. Hardly a good look for the regular human.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/12 04:18:32
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/12 11:31:09
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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BlaxicanX wrote:CSM have never been dispatched "by the dozen" in the Ghost's series. The Ghosts have only fought CSM on two separate occasions- in the first novel, where three were killed fighting the combined might of two regiments, and Gareon, where they did indeeed get crapped on in lulzy ways.
I guess I really need to stop blindly trusting the things people claim on dakka. Makes me wonder if that other WD story excerpt with the cultists overrunning a bunch of Astartes was really as the poster described.
But perhaps those GG statements were referring to this Gareon thing? You seem to have read it; perhaps you can expand on what exactly was to "lulzy".
Either way, I maintain that novel protagonists as well as characters have an undeniable tendency to be exactly as strong as required by the story. This isn't even purely a 40k thing, although I have a feeling that it may be stronger in this franchise due to the inherent potential of the equipment used, as well as a perceived "need" to make things "epic".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/12 12:24:36
Subject: Re:40K; The worth of a human life.
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
PA Unitied States
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To answer your title for this thread (not to be taken seriously people)
The worth or value of human life is is equal to zero.
Humans are nothing more than playthings to be sacraficed and enslaved by the High Lords of Terra and thier Inquisition puppets. They can kill billions of thier own citizens and nobody seems to care. Not even the Emperor who might care for humanity more than them.
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22 yrs in the hobby
:Eldar: 10K+ pts, 2500 pts
1850 pts
Vampire Counts 4000+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/12 14:21:45
Subject: Re:40K; The worth of a human life.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Rune Stonegrinder wrote:To answer your title for this thread (not to be taken seriously people)
The worth or value of human life is is equal to zero.
Humans are nothing more than playthings to be sacraficed and enslaved by the High Lords of Terra and thier Inquisition puppets. They can kill billions of thier own citizens and nobody seems to care. Not even the Emperor who might care for humanity more than them.
That's not true. Inquisitor Kryptman was censured and actually sent into exile because he exterminatus'd so many planets in an attempt to slow down Hive Kraken (before he came up with the idea of the Octarius war). The fluff mentioned "a genocide on the scale of the Horus Heresy" indicating it wasn't the territory but the human life that was a deciding factor in this. This is a GW studio fluff event, too.
Like-wise, the inquisitor in the Inquisition trilogy was sent into exile for using exterminatus on a planet without due cause (spoiler: He actually called it off when he realized he'd been tricked, but the villains arranged for it to go through anyways)
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2013/09/12 14:25:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/12 16:38:30
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Lynata wrote:BlaxicanX wrote:CSM have never been dispatched "by the dozen" in the Ghost's series. The Ghosts have only fought CSM on two separate occasions- in the first novel, where three were killed fighting the combined might of two regiments, and Gareon, where they did indeeed get crapped on in lulzy ways.
I guess I really need to stop blindly trusting the things people claim on dakka. Makes me wonder if that other WD story excerpt with the cultists overrunning a bunch of Astartes was really as the poster described.
But perhaps those GG statements were referring to this Gareon thing? You seem to have read it; perhaps you can expand on what exactly was to "lulzy".
Either way, I maintain that novel protagonists as well as characters have an undeniable tendency to be exactly as strong as required by the story. This isn't even purely a 40k thing, although I have a feeling that it may be stronger in this franchise due to the inherent potential of the equipment used, as well as a perceived "need" to make things "epic".
Basically, a Warband of CSM, who are occupying the planet, get killed by a combined force of about a dozen Ghosts, some stone-age Tribesmen who possess some archaeotech rail-gun crossbows ("reynbows") and the incredibly-potent toxins that the tribesmen gather from their swamp home. The CSM end up wrecking the village they attack and killing a bunch of faceless Tribesmen (a la Stormtroopers vs Ewoks), but end up getting killed by a combination of quick-thinking, resourcefulness, and Ghost badassery. Even for the GG series, it's a bit unbelievable.
In total, it's a half a dozen CSM, at best.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/12 16:39:25
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/12 19:26:24
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Lynata wrote:BlaxicanX wrote:CSM have never been dispatched "by the dozen" in the Ghost's series. The Ghosts have only fought CSM on two separate occasions- in the first novel, where three were killed fighting the combined might of two regiments, and Gareon, where they did indeeed get crapped on in lulzy ways.
I guess I really need to stop blindly trusting the things people claim on dakka. Makes me wonder if that other WD story excerpt with the cultists overrunning a bunch of Astartes was really as the poster described.
But perhaps those GG statements were referring to this Gareon thing? You seem to have read it; perhaps you can expand on what exactly was to "lulzy".
Either way, I maintain that novel protagonists as well as characters have an undeniable tendency to be exactly as strong as required by the story. This isn't even purely a 40k thing, although I have a feeling that it may be stronger in this franchise due to the inherent potential of the equipment used, as well as a perceived "need" to make things "epic".
The internet has really ruined that book which is a shame because its a good book. Ignore all references to it. You have to understand although a half dozen CSM are killed in it they are basically fighting 10 IG Special Characters including at least two that are on par with Sly Marbo if not better. The problem with just saying X number of so-and-so beat X number of So-and-Sos is there's no context. Context is everything.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/12 20:34:21
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Seattle
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Yeah, I'm kind of giving the whole arc a short-shrift, in the way that it's handled on the page. It's not *terrible* per se, especially if you are of the sort who doesn't view Space Marines, of any variety, as god-like in combat.
The whole Gereon arc is one of my favorite of the Ghosts' adventures, second only to Hinzerhaus.
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It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/12 21:14:07
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Hallowed Canoness
Ireland
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KamikazeCanuck wrote:You have to understand although a half dozen CSM are killed in it they are basically fighting 10 IG Special Characters including at least two that are on par with Sly Marbo if not better. The problem with just saying X number of so-and-so beat X number of So-and-Sos is there's no context. Context is everything.
Oh yeah, but that's my point exactly. Every protagonist in a novel is a special character - it just seems to me as if public perception is a bit skewed because there's (unsurprisingly, given the popularity) so many more Marine novels out there than others. In a way, it almost feels like a "parallel standard" that has been established over years where Black Library has slowly but surely supplanted GW's own fluff. The 8+ meter Marines are a good example of this phenomenon.
But I'll stop here as I'm starting to repeat myself.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/12 22:04:49
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Regular Dakkanaut
You'll find me in the mind's eye
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Lynata wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:You have to understand although a half dozen CSM are killed in it they are basically fighting 10 IG Special Characters including at least two that are on par with Sly Marbo if not better. The problem with just saying X number of so-and-so beat X number of So-and-Sos is there's no context. Context is everything.
Oh yeah, but that's my point exactly. Every protagonist in a novel is a special character - it just seems to me as if public perception is a bit skewed because there's (unsurprisingly, given the popularity) so many more Marine novels out there than others. In a way, it almost feels like a "parallel standard" that has been established over years where Black Library has slowly but surely supplanted GW's own fluff. The 8+ meter Marines are a good example of this phenomenon.
But I'll stop here as I'm starting to repeat myself.
Do you mean 8+ feet? The tallest man in history was 8'11. And marines with gigantism would be a good 10 feet tall assuming they don't already have it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/09/12 22:43:12
Subject: 40K; The worth of a human life.
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Lynata wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:You have to understand although a half dozen CSM are killed in it they are basically fighting 10 IG Special Characters including at least two that are on par with Sly Marbo if not better. The problem with just saying X number of so-and-so beat X number of So-and-Sos is there's no context. Context is everything.
Oh yeah, but that's my point exactly. Every protagonist in a novel is a special character - it just seems to me as if public perception is a bit skewed because there's (unsurprisingly, given the popularity) so many more Marine novels out there than others. In a way, it almost feels like a "parallel standard" that has been established over years where Black Library has slowly but surely supplanted GW's own fluff. The 8+ meter Marines are a good example of this phenomenon.
But I'll stop here as I'm starting to repeat myself.
Yes, I agree BL has supplanted GW for background creation. Embrace it Lynata!
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